Sawyer and NMA, the next chapter

[Briosafreak]

It`s time for J.E. Sawyer to comment on the ideas that members of NMA have been posting. Here`s a zip (Sawyer comments are in italics):<blockquote>
<blockquote>But there's many types of two-handed swords, just like there are many types of rifles. A katana is basically a two handed sword, as is a claymore. Very different swords, but both would fall under two handed swords just like the bozar and hunting rifle seem to fall under Big Guns under JE Sawyer's proposed idea.
<blockquote>Saint, you either don't understand how D&D weapon proficiencies work, or you're pretending you don't to prove some weird point. In D&D, if you take the greatsword martial weapon feat, you ONLY gain proficiency in that weapon. But -- this whole comparison is kind of ridiculous because in D&D, base weapon skill is based off of class levels, not skills that the player chooses.</blockquote>
It does when that new game is part three of an established series. Tweak it, sure.
<blockquote>All we're talking about is three skills. That's it. Three skills that have to do with combat alone. There are fifteen other skills in Fallout that have to do with combat and "all those other" paths through the game. If moving three skills down to two or, god forbid, one, is razing the village and sowing the fields with salt, I can't really imagine what you guys would think of a true system revision. The things I'm suggesting probably wouldn't even qualify for a new edition of a pen and paper system.
</blockquote>
You mean like 3rd Edition D&D has multiple speech skills?
<blockquote>No, actually, I mean like almost every pen and paper RPG system has multiple speech skills. GURPS Basic has about eight. Stormbringer has four. Vampire has four or five. Champions has five or six. Call of Cthulhu has four or five. Ars Magica has seven. Even In Nomine has four. In fact, D&D, with three, has one of the lowest ratios of social skills : other bought skills of all those games. People who want to play "Charisma Boys" in FO and FO2 don't really have to do jack other than tag Speech, have a decent cH and IN, and float through the game with whatever other tags they want. Even "Stealth Boys" have more decision making involved in their development. As a "path" of development, Charisma Boys are pretty shallow. They don't even have to make important tool usage decisions like Combat Boys do.
</blockquote>
As for the Science routes, good. In fact, I think all the skills in Fallout should have a non-scripted function as well as scripted ones. Doctor making drugs would be a side effect of a High Doctor skill. Making new trinkets or improving existing devices might be the result of a High Repair. Tracking enemies, finding plants and identifying them might be the result of High Outdoorsman. Things like that.
<blockquote>Yep, that's the general idea.</blockquote>
The problem with this would be piecemealing power armor. I prefer armor as a suit as well, just for things like power armor.
<blockquote>That's actually easily accomplished. In the Power Armor data, set that it is equipped in the torso slot, but occupies the head, arms, legs, etc. slots as well. If anyone wants to equip piecemeal armor, dropping the armor piece into any of the PA-occupied slots causes the PA to unequip.</blockquote>
EMP damage? Ummm.. Imagine a future where the transistor had never been invented. I wish I could remember which Fallout developer said that to describe Fallout's setting, but it's a fairly major concept! EMP really only works well on integrated circuits, re: transistor stuff, which aren't part of Fallout's setting.
<blockquote>Let me know if you found out which dev said that, because EMP grenades wreak utter havok on robots all over Fallout and Fallout 2. I walk into the Glow, throw an EMP grenade, and robots drop like flies in a blast furnace. It's pretty clear that ICs are used in robots all over the Fallout world. However, I think that a future Fallout title should take into account that some models of our traditional friends like Mr. Handy and Floating Eye Bot should be made with vaccuum tube tech to reflect the necessity of robots operating in the wake of atomic EMP blasts.</blockquote>
I think JE's major problem is that he wants to change the system, at all costs.
<blockquote>Three skills != SPECIAL. Combat subsystem != SPECIAL.</blockquote>
What gaming precedents are they basing these balance tweaks on?
Outside of streamlining the engine and locking in a LINEAR character path
to dun down the gameplay.
Are they fixing FO for Real Time?
<blockquote>What in the name of all the saints of the ancient world are you talking about? Did you play the same Fallout that I did? The one where the designers actually intended characters to move from Small Guns to Big Guns and then Energy Weapons? Is this not linear? How does what I am suggesting promote less flexibility than that?
And real time? What does the number of firearm skills have to do with turn based or real time? What possible effect could... Huh?</blockquote>
The funny thing is that Small Guns is still quite viable through end game for both Fallouts. A sniper rifle does a lot of damage, especially in the hands of a skilled person and with the right perks.
<blockquote>Even the best small guns (2mm EC) are inferior to the best plasma weapons except range, which is farely inconsequential more than halfway through the game in 90% of all combat situations. Something can be viable and still be inferior.
A sniper rifle does half the damage of a pulse rifle for 2 AP more with +15 range that's almost never practically useful. Basically, whatever damage a sniper rifle can do with a high skill and the right perks will be eclipsed by someone wielding a pulse rifle with equal skill and the same perks.</blockquote>

And he finishes with this statement:
<blockquote>I've addressed a few more firearm questions for the sake of our delayed-response satellite associates, but, as previously stated, I think we're just spinning our wheels discussing this more right now.</blockquote></blockquote>

So it`s time for us to comment on other issues, maybe NPC/PC control, or Real-Time/Turn-Based combat?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Saint, you either don't understand how D&D weapon proficiencies work, or you're pretending you don't to prove some weird point. In D&D, if you take the greatsword martial weapon feat, you ONLY gain proficiency in that weapon. But -- this whole comparison is kind of ridiculous because in D&D, base weapon skill is based off of class levels, not skills that the player chooses.

THIS. IS. SAINT. PROVERBIUS. COMING. IN. LIVE. FROM. SATELLITE. NEAR. MARS.

Anyway, I was refering to 2nd edition, where the profficiencies were broken down by two-handed swords, one-handed swords, and so forth. That's how I see making the guns in Fallout under a one-handed skill or a two-handed skill.

All we're talking about is three skills. That's it. Three skills that have to do with combat alone. There are fifteen other skills in Fallout that have to do with combat and "all those other" paths through the game. If moving three skills down to two or, god forbid, one, is razing the village and sowing the fields with salt, I can't really imagine what you guys would think of a true system revision. The things I'm suggesting probably wouldn't even qualify for a new edition of a pen and paper system.

I think I made my position clear here. Don't change the skills, but instead, improve them. Provide active uses for them as well as the generally passive uses and scripting. Allowing for things like reloading and general maintenance on the weapons as part of the skill would be interesting. Even allowing repair or assembly on the weapon would be interesting, given the skill.

I'm not talking about durability, either. I'm talking about finding unworkable combat shotgun in a pool of mud, and restoring it to a useful condition given a decent small arms skill. Say it's missing the firing mechanism. You can identify the problem and scrounge or have one built, then get the gun up and running. Hey, guess what, that ties in to the post apocalyptic theme, too!

Base the technology of the gun's operation on the skill level as well. Got a 65% Small Arms? Hey, you can fire a gauss weapon, but you don't comprehend the ammo feed!

That's what I'm saying, rather than streamline the skills down to two or one skill.. Make the skill more interesting than just how well you can shoot out someone's eyes at 50 hexes.

Speaking of hexes, did you get rid of those things yet? They wouldn't work well in real time, you know!

No, actually, I mean like almost every pen and paper RPG system has multiple speech skills. GURPS Basic has about eight. Stormbringer has four. Vampire has four or five. Champions has five or six. Call of Cthulhu has four or five. Ars Magica has seven. Even In Nomine has four. In fact, D&D, with three, has one of the lowest ratios of social skills : other bought skills of all those games. People who want to play "Charisma Boys" in FO and FO2 don't really have to do jack other than tag Speech, have a decent cH and IN, and float through the game with whatever other tags they want. Even "Stealth Boys" have more decision making involved in their development. As a "path" of development, Charisma Boys are pretty shallow. They don't even have to make important tool usage decisions like Combat Boys do.

Someone's defensive. I was just using D&D as an example there because it's fairly popular.

I still like the Speech Skill + Attribute Synergy thing, though. Any reason why there's no comment on that part?

That's actually easily accomplished. In the Power Armor data, set that it is equipped in the torso slot, but occupies the head, arms, legs, etc. slots as well. If anyone wants to equip piecemeal armor, dropping the armor piece into any of the PA-occupied slots causes the PA to unequip.

Easily accomplished, yet opens the door for questions like Why can't I hear the Combat Armor helmet on my PA's helm? It would fit! If you have piecewise, it should probably be consistant. Either it all is, or it's all not.

Let me know if you found out which dev said that, because EMP grenades wreak utter havok on robots all over Fallout and Fallout 2. I walk into the Glow, throw an EMP grenade, and robots drop like flies in a blast furnace. It's pretty clear that ICs are used in robots all over the Fallout world. However, I think that a future Fallout title should take into account that some models of our traditional friends like Mr. Handy and Floating Eye Bot should be made with vaccuum tube tech to reflect the necessity of robots operating in the wake of atomic EMP blasts.

This is the part where I remind you about fixing the mistakes of the past. You were talking about that a while ago, weren't you? Maybe good old Chris Taylor or whatever designer it was just didn't know the difference between an IC and a vacuum tube in terms of EMP effects. Most people just assume that anything with electronics is going to go POP when there's a decent amount of inductive current running around, but that's not the case.

To further the point that it's a mistake, wouldn't all those robots in West Tech have gotten POPPED when it was nuked because of the EMP? West Tech got hit pretty hard, after all, and that surface wasn't too gaussian after the roof fell in.

Three skills != SPECIAL. Combat subsystem != SPECIAL.

How many skills have to get dropped before it's not going to be SPECIAL anymore? Are we going to just keep dropping them until we're on the edge of that and then stop?

Three skills condensed down to two is enough to change a lot of playing styles.

What in the name of all the saints of the ancient world are you talking about? Did you play the same Fallout that I did? The one where the designers actually intended characters to move from Small Guns to Big Guns and then Energy Weapons? Is this not linear? How does what I am suggesting promote less flexibility than that?

I've never used Big Guns. I must have missed that mid-point in the line you're refering to. I've also beaten Fallout with Small Arms, fairly easily, with One Hander and a pistol. Guess I missed the mid-point and the end-point there. The designers of Fallout must have really screwed the pooch on that one if they missed the possibility that some people would use that .223 pistol and a trait they slapped in to thwart their linear path.

HAH! HAH! I BEAT THE SYSTEM!

Even the best small guns (2mm EC) are inferior to the best plasma weapons except range, which is farely inconsequential more than halfway through the game in 90% of all combat situations. Something can be viable and still be inferior.

I guess Briosafreak didn't quote you the part where I showed that in a given turn, someone with 10AP and a gauss pistol can do more damage than using the pulse rifle. I think you're also forgetting that the damage of the gauss weapons are amplified by the 2MM EC's Damage Mod.

As for range not mattering.. Range allows you to hit those head shots easier. Get a character with a 100% Energy Weapons skill and a 100% Small Arms still. Shoot something from 20 hexes out in the head with both. Tell me which percentage is higher. Factor in the critical hit damage to the damage of the attack, and you'll see where range helps the gauss weapon over the energy weapon.

A sniper rifle does half the damage of a pulse rifle for 2 AP more with +15 range that's almost never practically useful. Basically, whatever damage a sniper rifle can do with a high skill and the right perks will be eclipsed by someone wielding a pulse rifle with equal skill and the same perks.

I thought we were talking about Energy Weapons as a "switch out" skill. You eventually start building on it after you build on the Small Arms one. So, in the case of the guy with the sniper rifle, his skill should be much higher at the same point in the game as the Energy Weapons guy simply because he spent all his points on one skill instead of two.

I've addressed a few more firearm questions for the sake of our delayed-response satellite associates, but, as previously stated, I think we're just spinning our wheels discussing this more right now.

YIELD, WUSSY!

 

[4too]

4too excerpt:

What gaming precedents are they basing these balance tweaks on? Outside of streamlining the engine and locking in a LINEAR character path to dun down the gameplay.
Are they fixing FO for Real Time?

JE reply:

What in the name of all the saints of the ancient world are you talking about? Did you play the same Fallout that I did? The one where the designers actually intended characters to move from Small Guns to Big Guns and then Energy Weapons? Is this not linear? How does what I am suggesting promote less flexibility than that?
And real time? What does the number of firearm skills have to do with turn based or real time? What possible effect could... Huh?

I am not refering to the linear nature of weapons introduction, selection, and usage in FO. That's classic RPG progression, whether
one starts with a rusty dagger or a switch blade, the end level is played out with a +9 Long Sword of Satire or the Turbo Phlegmatic high fidelity Woofertweeter.

I am refering to the limiting of weapon options for the sake of a game system that is compatible with real time reflexes. I am refering to the
economizing of required reactions. It's not a bad thing by itself, because it's to make game play accessible. What I may be suggesting by "dunning" is the systematic simplification will carry over to CHARACTER PATHES. What options that remain might be "lost on the cutting room floor" to use a film editing cliche.

JE's proposed 'Science Guy' shows he's for multiple character options. And this statement (above) shows his justified frustration with our dark and gloomy prediliction for the worst case scenario. He's demanding manuevering room to shape a system that will exploit the new coding. If he can do it here, he will be able to present his vision to the rest of the developement group. Even those that made "useless" characters and are too busy, or not square headed enough to try again.

Reward those that surmount the learning curve.

I trust that JE will be developing Part Three of the FO Saga and NOT a sequel of FO:BOS. So if he's empowered by these forum discussions, the editorial pressures will accentuate his creative proclivities.


4too

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Typical Fallout fan reply: I can beat the game using a number of weapons, skills and different character designs.

Typical J.E. Sawyer reply: But the XYZ weapon has the better stats and obviously with its range of X, damage of Y and critical bonus of ABC it causes more damage per shot than an JKL weapon. Therefore, why would you want to beat the game with any other weapon?

Typical Fallout fan response: Err... But I can still beat the game with other weapons... You're saying we can't. So what if one weapon is better than the others? We can still beat the game with other weapons.

Typical J.E. Sawyer reply: But the XYZ has better stats! You should use it as it's obviously the better weapon! Damn all you people and your different play styles! Damn you all!!


What doesn't he get? Has he completely lost the plot?

 

[4too]

Circus Boy!

Circus Boy!

AGENDA: It's obvious he wants to edit out something.

And,..... his proclimations do seem like the "'big tent' that covers all".

If his agenda is to fit the game size and quality to the developement time, it could get bloody. The front poarch whittlin', so to speak, in which they cut off every thin' that don't look like FO. Expect lots of chips.

This day, I tend to spin out polysyllabic positive reinforcement. Think of it as cotton candy for the "big tent". Give 'im room in the center ring. Maybe y'all could catch the slight of hand, as he does the juggling of dualities.

4too

 

[Dan]

Three skills != SPECIAL. Combat subsystem != SPECIAL.

Errr... What? I think you missed my point, JE.
What I said was that you were going for big changes to fix minor things. All of your complaints on the current system can be fixed with tweaking and designing only a few new guns.

Make another stronger bullet pistol. Make a stronger bullet rifle.

Although I always thought the Gauss was strong enough, as it was the best weapon in the game that can take even the pulse rifle hands down.
I had no trouble killing a entrie patrol of enclavers with a gauss rifle and around 120% in small arms.
If you aim for the head, and score a critical, your target is dead. And with the gauss supreme accuracy, hitting that head is not so hard.

I don't see the point of making the new skills you mentioned. As mentioned before they can do indeed cause more problems. If you stick with the original system, you already know all the problems, and can fix them easily.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Typical J.E. Sawyer reply: But the XYZ has better stats! You should use it as it's obviously the better weapon! Damn all you people and your different play styles! Damn you all!!

Well, keep in mind that JE Sawyer, in his own words, is working in an environment with a bunch of chimpanzees who are struggling to get through Fallout and Fallout 2. He's probably constantly bombarded with things like, Damn, JE, how the hell do you get out of the Vault 13 cave? Those fucking rats made me wish I had a turbo plasma rifle or something! or JE, I just used FALCHE, and I slaughtered those ghouls at Necropolis with the turboplasma rifle! It was kewl. and much, much more.

It absolutely amazes me though that he asserts that Small Arms is useless, and pistols are the most useless of the Small Arms, when it's not that difficult to kill the Master with a pistol using just one trait. We're not talking rocket science here, or thinking about unified field theory.. We're talking about putting on check mark beside that one trait and going with it.

It also amazes me that he keeps claiming that Energy Weapons are the most uber thing in any Fallout, but fails to notice the guass pistol kicks the fuck out of the pulse rifle.

One more time, and this time Brios, post the damned math!

Gauss Pistol Max Raw Damage: 48 (Counting 2MM EC damage mod)
Pulse Rifle Max Raw Damage: 78

Yeah, it looks like the Pulse rifle is uber compared to the gauss pistol... BUT.. With perks like Bonus Rate of Fire, and the Fast Shot trait, you're firing one shot every 2AP with the gauss pistol, and three with the pulse rifle.

At 7AP, which is average, the damage per round:

• Gauss Pistol: 48*3 = 144
  Pulse Rifle: 78*2 = 156

Not much difference there, but the pulse rifle is the winner.

At 8AP:

• Gauss Pistol: 48*4 = 192
  Pulse Rifle: 78*2 = 156

Look at that, the pulse rifle, the best energy weapon in FO2 is utterly pwn3d by the lowly Small Arms weapon.. A pistol at that!

At 9AP:

• Gauss pistol: 48*4 = 192
  Pulse Rifle: 78*3 = 234

And the pulse rifle takes the lead.. It's still alternating pole position with a SMALL ARMS weapon that's a PISTOL.

At 10AP:

• Gauss Pistol: 48*5 = 240
  Pulse Rifle: 78*3 = 234

The guass pistol again takes the lead.

Before you mention the Fast Shot Trait and the Bonus Rate of Fire, that's only for the sake of getting the player the most APs. At 8AP minus the perk and train use, the guass weapon ends up with 96 max damage per round and the pulse rifle is only 78.

The basic point is that even neglecting range, like JE seems to like to do, the gauss pistol still manages to hang well with the best energy weapon on Fallout 2. Saying that energy weapons have no small arms that can match them means someone needs to do some math.


So much for the claim that Small Arms is useless and weak, esspecially the pistols..

 

[Roshambo]

Stay tuned for the next waffle session, as performed by Sawyer himself!

I think Chuck Cuevas' mental retardation has been spreading around the IPLY offices.

 

[4too]

Still Drying...

He does have a fascinating "rant posture".

I paraphrase:

"What tome of saints of the last millenium has cursed your prefrontal lobe
with the imagine that the number of x, y, or z, has anything to do with a, b,or c."

Good rhetorical affect when used to redirect a wandering thread.

May imply an experience with "command voice" and appropriate leadership skills.

AS TO waffleing, he's still on a broad front strategy while he canvases the forums. But my reason and logic are very fuzzy, so I surrender the surgery to the esteemed experts.

He may benifit most from the sharp critques. Such as St._P.
rockin' n' rollin' with the stats for end game negociating small guns.
Or DarkUnderLord asking why twin Desert Eagles need to be akimbo'ed into stats stronger than Turbo Plasma weapons. Why 'dis' small guns than make 'em UBER? Work in progress, perhaps.


4too

 

[Montez]

I'm getting in a little late on this thread, but after reading the thread on Something Awful where he relates his difficulty in whittling Sm Guns/Big Guns/Enrg Weapons down to 1 or 2 skills, I'm getting even more depressed. He refuses to listen to the "Fallout Fanatics", instead he just takes it as an opportunity to be condescending and argue his own peculiar brand of logic. The solution to his whole "3 gun skills" problem is pretty simple: There is no problem!!! Guess what, guy? They probably dealt with the same dilemma when they developed Fallout 1! And their solution was the 3 gun skills! And guess what? People enjoyed that solution! As S.P. said, they game could be beaten with any weapon, and it gave the game further replayability. And as many others have said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[Kindo]

This is so stupid. I have never needed an energy weapon in order to beat the game. I tried em out the first time around, but I am not too fond of laser/plasma/pulse or whatever...so after that try, I didn't bother with that skill anymore. I just went for Small Guns or Big Guns, because those were the weapons I found fun, and i had no problem beating the game.

My favourite pistol is Desert Eagle, and it works great. I also tend to use the Scoped Hunting Rifle (or Sniper Rifle if I find it) and that thing also works like a charm. Now Gauss Rifle/Pistol ain't my favourite choice, but those weapons are uber.

He's messing up stuff that's already working.