Sawyer asks for feedback

[Briosafreak]

This time J. E. Sawyer, the Lead Designer on Fallout3, i mean Project Van Buren, is asking for feedback on several issues, just read what he posted at the Interplay message boards:
<blockquote>Hello. As I wrote earlier this week, I'd like to throw up some ideas for broader applications of what are often called "Charisma Boy" or "Diplomacy Boy" skills. In Fallout and Fallout 2, such characters could focus on two skills with good, but fairly limited, applications: Barter and Speech. Barter affected buy and sell prices, Speech affected dialogue options (along with attributes).

Combat boys not only have skills but tools to help define their characters. Three characters who focus on Melee can all use different weapon sets for different purposes. This gives a level of depth to match or exceed that character type's skill breadth.

In my opinion (though some may [read: will] disagree), the Charisma Boy has neither depth or nor breadth in character development. He's got two skills, one with no depth, one with slight depth. Barter is pretty flat. It's just a score that goes up and changes store prices. A player can't do much with it to change his or her gameplay experience other than dump points into it and save money. Even the perks available for Barter don't really allow the player to do anything new with the skill.

Speech opens up a lot of dialogue options, but that's its whole point. It doesn't go beyond that. Attributes can be checked with Speech in dialogue, but ultimately those static checks are just pass/fail. Randomized checks in speech are easily overcome by the ol' "uncontested reload", so there's not much point to them -- they need to be static checks because of the environment in which they appear.

For these reasons, I would like to keep Barter, but divide Speech into two skills: Deception and Persuasion. However, this division is harmful unless the Deception and Persuasion skills have a broader application in the game outside of standard dialogue.

Barter: As in Fallout and Fallout 2, this skill does affect store prices. However, it also represents a certain level of knowledge about the caravan houses and trading in general, giving it a small role in dialogue. The intended depth to Barter development comes in the perks available at higher skill ranks. Though I have previously posted ideas for a few of these, I'll repost them here for ease.

Bulk Trader
Prerequisites: Barter 100
Ranks: 1
Benefit: Quantity is the name of the game, and you're holding all the cards. When you buy and sell goods, you get a better deal for larger quantities of a single item.

E.g.: John has Bulk Trader. When traveling, he notices that all of the Blackspear tribals carry spears along with their assorted equipment. He goes out of his way to save up a few dozen of them for a rainy day. When he has about fifty, he and his companions haul the load down to the weapons dealer for a bag of cash.

Junk Merchant
Prerequisites: Barter 75
Ranks: 1
Benefit: All items you find that have a base value of 1-5 bottlecaps are worth three times as much when you trade them.

E.g.: Frank searches every damned container and corpse he comes across. A lot of them have tidbits of old world nostalgia or technology that's effectively worthless and practically only worth a few caps. However, most bits weigh almost nothing, so he collects it all, knowing that he can sell even a broken little doll to some poor sap for a decent amount of money.

Mental Catalogue
Prerequisites: PE 4, Barter 150
Ranks: 1
Benefit: You can get the identified name and description of any item you examine, even if you don't meet the other skill requirements.

E.g.: The Fallout world is a big cesspool of ignorance unless you're part of the FotA, BoS, the Enclave, or a similar group. Though you can get the basic statistics and description of any item you pick up, more detailed and useful descriptions often appear for characters with right stats (Science for energy weapons, Medic for super stims, etc.). This is especially helpful for builder characters who pick up random pieces of salvaged technology in the wasteland. To know what tech elements make up any given piece of equipment, characters need the right statistics. However, a character with Mental Catalogue has so much experience with and knowledge of trading that he or she always gets the detailed description of an item.

Deception: This skill is used in dialogue, but it is also used as a limited building skill as means to an "alternate" stealth route. As with Speech in Fallout, Deception is checked in dialogue along with stats. But Deception's dialogue options all take the form of bluffing, misleading, or otherwise flat out lying to the other person in the conversation.

Deception can also be used to "sneak in plain sight" through the use of disguises. Disguises can be either found or created with a Disguise Kit. A disguise is a single item that a character wears, though it may occupy several equipped slots when necessary. Disguises may include things like: NCR Ranger Outfit, Hubologist Outfit, Viper Raider Outfit, etc. When a character uses a disguise, the character's effective reputation and identity become invisible. As far as AI is concerned, the character is part of that disguise's "team" as long as the NPC's PE doesn't see through the character's Deception skill (affected by range, lighting, etc.). Of course, for practical/gameplay purposes, a character's disguise does not hold up once he or she enters combat or attempts to initiate dialogue. And some disguises just don't work for some characters (no super mutants in BoS Scribe disguises, no humans in Night Kin disguises).

Characters can also manufacture disguises from individual disguise elements through the use of a disguise kit. Placing all the elements of the intended disguise into the kit creates the disguise if the character's Deception skill is high enough. E.g.: Joe wants an NCR Ranger Outfit. This requires an NCR Ranger uniform, NCR Ranger boots, and an NCR Ranger pin (I love that pin). He finds the uniform on a dead Ranger, buys the boots at a surplus store, and trades for the pin with a group of unpleasant but businesslike raiders. Dump them in the kit and -- voila -- NCR Ranger Outfit.

Sample Deception perk:

Body Snatcher
Prerequisites: Deception 100
Ranks: 1
Benefit: A few blood stains and bullet holes never stopped you from making a proper disguise. When critters with outfits die near you, you will often be able to salvage a piece of their outfit for use with a disguise kit.

E.g.: Ted has his own Blackspear Tribal disguise, but he wants to take his CNPC pal, Destructo, into the bunker as well. A random encounter finds him watching a group of Blackspears fighting raiders. Ted and Destructo sit the combat out until the Blackspears get annihilated. Ted then walks up and gingerly searches the bodies, finding a Blackspear headdress, gooey black facepaint made of... something, and one of their patchwork brahmin-skin outfits.

Persuasion: This skill is the other half of what Speech encompassed. It is used for friendly diplomacy, subtle manipulation, and outright intimidation. Also, as previously discussed, I believe it could be used to good effect for attempting to control CNPCs (companion NPCs) during combat. Though CNPCs would be computer-controlled by default, I believe that giving the high-Persuasion character a chance to control their followers is sensible and good for the purposes of expanding Persuasion's usefulness throughout the game.

NOTE: CNPCs SHOULD STILL HAVE IMPROVED AI. IN FACT, IT SHOULD BE MUCH BETTER THAN FO AND FO2. THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTION FOR GOOD AI, SIMPLY AS A WAY TO REWARD CHARISMA BOYS FOR A HIGH PERSUASION SKILL.

Some CNPCs are really agreeable, and some are belligerent jackasses who don't listen to anything. Some also go crazy when they see certain types of creatures or otherwise are annoyed by local behavior. A wounded CNPC can also be extremely difficult to control, as their life tends to take precedence over your desire to be a big winner. Persuasion can be used to offset a CNPC's tendencies to do exactly what they want, when they want. The higher the Persuasion, the more likely it is that the CNPC will allow the player to control them, even under duress.

Sample Persuasion perk:

Suicide King
Prerequisites: Persuasion 150 and CH 8
Ranks: 1
Benefit: When standing within your area of influence, CNPC allies always ignore how wounded they are when you attempt to control them in combat.

E.g.: Ted and Destructo are fighting deathclaws. Destructo's got nothing against deathclaws, but he isn't too fond of the gaping wound that's left him with 28/100 hit points. Normally, he would head for the hills, even if his enemy was pretty wounded. However, Ted's a Suicide King, so Destructo knows that his pal will get him out of this mess somehow if he just follows his lead. (i.e., Destructo ignores his wounds for purposes of comparsion to Ted's Persuasion). Ted exercises manual control over Destructo. He has him attack the deathclaw, killing it, then has Destructo move down next to Ted. On Ted's next turn, Ted uses a Super Stim on Destructo, and everyone is happy until the other three deathclaws get in melee range.

Comments are welcome.</blockquote>

You`ve heard the man, comments are welcome.

 

[atoga]

SEC. 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That from and after the last day of December next, the duties specified and laid in and by the act aforesaid, shall cease and determine; and that upon all goods, wares, and merchandise (not herein particularly excepted) which after the said day shall be brought into the United States, from any foreign port or place, there shall be levied, collected and paid the several and respective duties following, that is to say: Madeira wine of the quality of London particular, per gallon, thirty-five cents; other Madeira wine, per gallon, thirty cents; Sherry wine, per gallon, twenty-five cents; other wines, per gallon, twenty cents; distilled spirits, if more than ten per cent below proof, according to Dycas's hydrometer, per gallon, twelve cents; if more than five, and not more than ten per cent below proof, according to the same hydrometer, per gallon, twelve and a half cents; if of proof, and not more than five per cent below proof, according to the same hydrometer, per gallon, thirteen cents; if above proof, but not exceeding twenty per cent, according to the same hydrometer, per gallon, twenty cents; if more than forty per cent above proof, according to the same hydrometer, per gallon, twenty-five cents; molasses, per gallon, three cents; beer, ale and porter in casks, per gallon, five cents; beer, ale and porter in bottles, per dozen, twenty cents. Teas from China and India, in ships or vessels of the United States, bohea, per pound, ten cents; souchong and other black teas, per pound eighteen cents, hyson, per pound, thirty-two cents; other green teas, per pound, twenty cents. Teas from Europe, in ships or vessels of the United States, bohea, per pound, twelve cents; souchong and other black teas, per pound, twenty-one cents; hyson, per pound, forty cents; other green teas, per pound, twenty-four cents. Teas from any other place, or in any other ships or vessel, bohea, per pound, fifteen cents; souchong and other black teas, per pound, twenty-seven cents; hyson, per pound, fifty cents; other green teas, per pound, thirty cents; coffee, per pound, four cents; cocoa, per pound, one cent; loaf sugar, per pound, five cents; brown sugar, per pound, one and a half cent; other sugar, per pound, two and a half cents; candles of tallow, per pound, two cents; candles of wax or spermaceti, per pound, six cents; cheese, per pound, four cents; soap, per pound, two cents; pepper per pound, six cents; pimento, per pound, four cents; manufactured tobacco, per pound, six cents; snuff, per pound, ten cents; indigo, per pound, twenty-five cents; cotton, per pound, three cents; nails and spikes, per pound, one cent; bar and other lead, per pound, one cent; steel unwrought, per one hundred and twelve pounds, seventy-five cents; hemp, per one hundred and twelve pounds, fifty-four cents; cables, per one hundred and twelve pounds, one hundred cents; untarred cordage and yarn, per one hundred and twelve pounds, one hundred and fifty cents; twine and pack thread, per one hundred and twelve pounds, three hundred cents; salt, per bushel, twelve cents; malt, per bushel, ten cents; coal, per bushel, three cents; boots, per pair, fifty cents; shoes, slippers and goloshoes, made of leather, per pair, seven cents; shoes and slippers, made of silk or stuff, per pair, ten cents; wool and cotton cards, per dozen, fifty cents; playing cards, per pack, ten cents; all China ware, looking glasses, window and other glass, and all manufactures of glass (black quart bottles excepted) twelve and a half per centum ad valorem; marble, slate, and other stones, bricks, tiles, tables, mortars and other utensils of marble or slate, and generally all stone and earthen ware, blank books, writing paper, and wrapping paper, paper hangings, pasteboards, parchment and vellum, pictures and prints, painter's colors, including lampblack, except those commonly used in dyeing, gold, silver, and plated ware, gold and silver lace, jewellery and paste work, clocks and watches, shoe and knee buckles, grocery, (except the articles before enumerated) namely, cinnamon, cloves, mace, nutmegs, ginger, anniseed, currants, dates, figs, plums, prunes, raisins, sugar candy, oranges, lemons, limes, and generally all fruits and comfits, olives, capers, and pickles of every sort, oil, gunpowder, mustard in flour, ten per centum ad valorem; cabinet wares, buttons, saddles, gloves of leather, hats of beaver, felt, wool, or a mixture of any of them, military ready made, castings of iron, and slit and rolled iron, leather tanned or tawed, and all manufactures of which leather is the chief value, except such as herein otherwise rated, canes, walking sticks and whips, clothing ready made, brushes, anchors, all wares of tin, pewter, or copper, all or any of them, medicinal drugs, except those commonly used in dyeing, carpets and carpeting, all velvets, velverets, satins, and other wrought silks, cumbrics, muslins, muslincts, lawns, laces, gauzes, chintzes, and colored calicoes, and nankeens, seven and a half per centum ad valorem. All goods, wares and merchandise imported directly from China or India in ships or vessels not of the United States, teas excepted, twelve and a half per centum ad valorem. All coaches, chariots, phaetons, chaises, chairs, solos or other carriages, or parts of carriages, fifteen and a half per centum ad valorem; and five per centum ad valorem upon all other goods, wares, and merchandise, except bullion, tin in pigs, tin plates, old pewter, brass teutenague, iron and brass wire, copper in plates, saltpetre, plaster of Paris, wool, dyeing woods, and dyeing drugs, raw hides and skins, undressed furs of every kind, the sea stores of ships and vessels, the clothes, books, household furniture, and the tools or implements of the trade or profession of persons who come to reside in the United States, philosophical apparatus, specially imported for any seminary of learning, all goods intended to be re-exported to a foreign port or place, in the same ship or vessel in which they shall be imported, and generally, all articles of the growth, product or manufactures of the United States.

 

[Hory]

I think it would be pretty interesting to have the Speech made more complex, by splitting it. I finished FO2 two times as a "Charisma Boy" and even without the "tools", the game seemed to me less boring than killing everything with weapons (not that FO2 is boring!). Also, with Deception and Persuasion, i think Persuasion will be something picked by most of the people, unless there are many evil players out there.
Arcanum is a game i like almost as much as FO2. I remember there were "tools" such as fancy suits or nice hats that would give an advantage to speech when worn. Also, if you would go around in your armor asking questions in a city, people would say "you barbarian" or things like that. I don't know if that's possible in a FO universe where everyone's a fighter, everyone tries to survive and where you can't trust everyone.
I think FO2 was too easy, even on the "hard" level, no matter if you played with a gunfighter or a diplomat. In order for diplomats to have a hard time too, even when speaking, there should be some kind of factions created. So if you joined some factions, some people would act different towards you. Or even choose to start as a Ghoul, Mutant or Human and some people would hate mutants but you would be accepted in Mutant circles more easily if you were one. Or that would determine the CNPCs you can be allied to. In Arcanum that existed and choosing to be an Orc for example, that was better in combat, you would be hardly accepted into discussions or given quests. Or if you were an elf you would be hated by some dwarves. This could exist in "FO3" too. It would make the game more replayable because you wouldn't have access to ALL the quests available, like in FO2 (almost) with a highly diplomatic guy.
I think having the ability to choose your "race" would be a good thing and the "race" would also give you the "traditional" advantages and disadvantages (ghouls are slow but with a high constitution, mutants are powerful but dumb and humans could be the diplomats, thieves and of course fighters).
Even some perks would be good as tools, like a bonus in the relations with mutants and maybe that would give a disadvantage in the relations with humans. And even the classic "better relations with the opposite sex but worse with the others".

Overall, I saw that Mr. J. E. Sawyer has made interesting posts and has had good ideas so i trust that what he'll choose will be a good pick.