Sawyer on unarmed attack

[Briosafreak]

J.E. Sawyer now posted his views about unarmed combat in Fallout3:
<blockquote>If the advantage of firearms is range and damage at the cost of ammo conservation, and the advantage of melee is in reliability and good potential damage from powered weapons at the cost of (usually) range and less overall damage than firearms, then (IMO), the advantage of unarmed should be in flexibility at the cost of range and damage.

The highly skilled unarmed character should always have at least two moves to perform for each AP level between 2 and 10. Because interface limitations can be overcome in a future Fallout title, the unarmed character should have access to half of these attacks with one click-hold-release. Each move should have its own benefits and drawbacks so that a healthy amount of the moves stay useful throughout the game.

The moves could be split into these groups: hand attacks, hand combos, foot attacks, foot combos and hand-foot combos. For example, the character could have Jab, Cross, Uppercut, Elbow Smash, Backhand, Sucker Punch, Spearhand, and Ridgehand as standard hand attacks, each with their own AP cost, bonus or penalty to hit, DT modifier, and damage. However, the character could also gain "two-in-one" combos. </blockquote>

He then writes much more on the subject, go and read the full thing here.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

You left out the rest deliberately? But that's the best part!!

For instance, Jab-Elbow. The combo would do both moves, each at a different hex. The Jab would go into the targeted hex, and the Elbow Smash would go into the hex back and to the right. The combo would cost less AP than both moves individually, but it would be at a lower chance to hit with each attack, and would incur a fatigue cost. Another combo might be Cross-Backhand-Ridgehand, hitting the first hex targeted, the hex to the right, and the hex two more to the right.

Kicks could have the same general layout (with different moves, of course). The kicks don't even have to be crazy wire-fu'ed out. They can just be regular ol' kicks. Snap Kick, Axe Kick, Roundhouse, Back Kick, Side Kick, Hook Kick, etc. You could have the same sorts of combos. Roundhouse-Hook, Side-Back, Snap-Side-Axe.

The most complex combos would only be available when the character was fighting with no equipment in either hand, allowing hand-foot combos that could hit four, five, or even six hexes. Axe-Backhand-Round-Spear, Cross-Round-Back-Jab-Uppercut, Uppercut-Elbow-Side-Axe-Ridge-Spear. The high-skill complex combo unarmed character is like a mobile low-powered grenade, able to hit the hexes he or she wants when he or she wants from round to round. He or she never runs out of ammo, but has to accept that at high efficiency, he or she is accumulating fatigue and doing less damage than a comparable melee or firearms character. But with more than thirty moves to perform at high levels, never needing to equip or reload weapons, the unarmed character has ultimate flexibility for dealing with any close-range encounter with small to very large numbers of opponents.

In addition, it would be nice if the unarmed characters had the opportunity to learn fighting stances that filled the same role as ammo types for firearms characters (hollow point vs. armor piercing, etc.). Say you encounter and become pals with a group of NCR Rangers. One of the benefits of befriending them is that their combat trainer will teach you the NCR Ranger Stance. This stance emphasizes attacking vulnerable locations (automatically lowers defensive DT on hit) at a cost of speed (+1 AP for all moves). The character isn't always animating in that stance -- it's something that's entered (turned on) and either maintained or turned off by going into a normal stance or another stance (Tribal Stance, Puglist Stance, etc.).

EDIT: Oh, and one special move for hands (Disarm) and one special move for feet (Sweep). Disarm has a chance of knocking the weapon out of the target's hands, Sweep has a chance of just knocking them down.

Fallout: Teh Matrix vs Fallout: Mortal Kombat or even Fallout: Xena Warrior Princess

I don't mind options for unarmed, but the combo moves where I can hit seven or eight people with a few AP... Why? Most times it's one-on-one. Punch one guy in the arms so he can't use his weapons, punch him in the legs so he can't run away and once crippled, target the next guy.

More to the point, the moves would only be useful when you have two opponents in just the right hexes. How often is that going to happen? You'll look at an opponent and go "Oh, damn, if that other guy was just 1 hex over, I could use the Kentucky-Fried-Chicken-Hand-Jab-of-Doom-to-the-Head combo!"

He also makes the assumption that you'll actually have 6 opponents next to you when you fight. In the event that you don't, the combo moves are going to be useless. Fun, but useless except in rare circumstances.

Oh sorry, I forgot, in RT, everyone will run up to you at once and start whacking you. So yeah, maybe they are useful.

could you give us an example of how would you target different hexes in rt?

It would work the same in TB as RT. The idea isn't that you target multiple hexes manually. You target the first hex, and the other hexes affected are determined by the combo itself (sort of like a burst).

Here are two combo examples:

Combo 1: Cross hits B, Backfist hits C, and Elbow hits A.

Combo 2: Roundhouse hits G, Hook hits F.

In both cases, the player targets the first hex of the combo, and the other hexes affected are lit up in order to let him or her know what other hexes are going to be targeted for attacks. Not all combos are good for all situations. In fact, most are useless when facing a single opponent (you're better off using a variety of single attacks to maximum effect). I do worry a bit about RT in this case, since the combo will actually take time to play through its animation.

As for stances, that's a good idea, perhaps a Western Stance for pugilists, A Greco-Roman Stance for wrestlers, and various other stances for the kung fu/judo/karate fans?

"You are no match for my Snake Style!"

The five stances I wrote up thus far are all based in American wasteland cultures like the NCR, BoS, and various tribes.

No, every move goes to a hex based off of the original attack, meaning some attacks could target unoccupied hexes. That's what makes the combos something that has to be used carefully. But, since the unarmed character always has access to all of his or her attacks at any given time, they can always switch to a different combo or single attack to meet the needs of the situation.

Cool. 50 different combos to remember or cycle through so that I can figure out which one to use and when.

I like how when it comes to Unarmed, a "useless skill in need of work" he essentially develops more moves (more weapons) to make the skill useful. But when it comes to other skills, such as Throwing or Small Guns, it's out the window with them and he combines them into some whacky combination.

LOGIC!!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

So much for ditching the idea of KUNG FU in Fallout in favor of 1950s style pugilism. Maybe Carl Douglas is doing the theme song this time around.

 

[quillab]

Hey what about head butts, elbows and submissions?

the animation in that would be funny...hehe..

 

[4too]

Incredible......... this the troll bait version?

Incredible......... this the troll bait version?
We couldn't dispense enough LOVE and FEED BACK concerning barter and real time issues, so we get this.

This was a FO3 developement discussion? So FO3 is all mirage,
hypothetical, vapor? Make work until Vivendi pulls the plug?

What happened to the generic weapons credo to streamline the game?
Where is the lean and lanky, get things done, kinda talk?

Laying down the foot work for specific stances and every hand gestrure, except, the unit digital I am raising in honor of this remake of "DEAD OR ALIVE: Glowing Sands Volleyball." Chuck Cuevas was wishing to do Lara Croft, Pistoles Akimbo Sequal, and JE is dreaming of Mortal Combat and Soul Calibur 2.

50 plus moves and combos to be served up in $Real$Time$!

I am familar with the PS-2 Controller and it's Gravis brother for USB and gameport. Even with a mouse and a keyboard, how is this possible? Turn based or real time?

I'm sure there are fans who will SAY it's possible, and will score points with the debate club for style and spelling. Who could possiblly explain
how this could be done, on any platform?

I like dancing. But the choregraphy necessary seems beyond the scope of a mere post apocalyptic role playing game.

Sweeps and disarming moves are interesting, and the ever popular law enforcement restraining hold that's REALLY a CHOKE hold, basic Judo,
but TO FEATURE the entire history of martial arts, and the wonderful world WWF in one >tiny< RPG. Give it up, baby! Incredible. This mirrors the FOT compulsion to throw in every firearm known in Australia.

It looks like chrome to please a few Bruce Lee afficiandos, and dissapointment for the rest that will show up with a shotgun and a monkey-wrench expecting a FO RPG, and find a FISTS OF FURY-ENTER THE DRAGON fight with a game controller instead.

This JE''s conception of W.Gibson's ""punching deck""?

This is not a waffle, it's a psychotic ramble down some dark hallway of a horror survival epic. And to emulate established rhetorical inflections:
""What black terror and dream of hell inspired you to gestate this impossible console concept that 50 plus melee moves and hand to hand combos could fit on the head of a pin, wiggle through the eye of the needle, and leave room in the coding for a Post Apocalyptic Role Playing Game?""

If he can do all this, he's wasting his time working for Interplay.

Perhaps the FO3 design doc's are really his resume, as he ascends to SONY!

He could ""BE A CONTENDER"" a Marlon Brando, A Console God.

4too

 

[Odin]

Re: Incredible......... this the troll bait version?

Incredible.........

Best post ever ! nice 4too!

 

[Chairface]

Multi-hex combos definitely bad. Unarmed worked well in FOT, assuming you had enough sense to pair it with Stealth and actually behave as though you were an unarmed man attacking people who have guns.

In the two RPG Fallouts, unarmed was great already. It's been said that the current small guns/big guns/energy weapons system is bad, because small guns become obsolete (although I don't buy that; Fallout 2 made Small Guns too powerful because the Gauss Rifle never goes obsolete.) and the other two are useless early on. Unarmed has always been the answer. The two melee combat skills (but unarmed more so) stay good for the beginning and end of the game, though both suffer a bit around the middle, when most enemies have automatic weapons (which hurt A LOT up close) and the PC doesn't yet have the Slayer perk, power armor and a power fist or super sledge.

I'm honestly not overly adverse to either proposed method of dealing with guns (the old small/big/energy or the new 1-handed/2-handed) although I do like the old method better, since ANY gun should be used 2-handed. But unarmed isn't even arguably broken; DO NOT TRY TO FIX IT.

Here's what little has been done wrong with melee combat, as far as I can tell, note I'm not suggest fundamental changes to the way these skills work (adding combos, fighting styles, etc):

1. Having 2 skills for melee and a third for throwing things is a bit much. Personally I'd like to see non-gun combat forms chopped down to 2 skills. I honestly don't know whether it'd be better to lump throwing in with unarmed or armed, or whether both melee skills should be lumped together. IPLY has play-testers, they can play-test it. If non-gun combat remains at 3 skills, please consider lumping stealth in with unarmed, or stealth and throwing together as an "athletics" skill of sorts. Play test it and see what's gonna work best, but please look into chopping down the number of skills a melee fighter needs.

2. If you won't/can't cut down the skills, make the stealth boy either not take up an item slot, or else not count for perks like HtH Evade and such (ie, the slot holding the stealth boy still counts as "empty")

3. Make sure there are viable weapons for each stage of the game. Fallout 1 and 2 both had big gaps between the early game's spears/hammers and the supersledge/power fist. Spiked knuckles helped fill this gap for the unarmed character, but the midrange melee weapons (wakizashi, etc) weren't available until after the super sledge was available, and in Fallout 1, there were no real midrange melee weapons. Hand grenades would've filled the gap, except that throwing was a third skill unto itself.

4. If you think all my other suggestions suck, consider a midlevel perk to help out melee fighters. Berzerker rage or something. A mechanic that will let a melee character have a chance at duking it out up close against those midlevel automatic weapons. Or even just drop the level requirement on Slayer a bit. I know that last bit may sound slightly overpowered, but it can't be nearly as disruptive as the gauss rifle was, and it's something to try.

5. Melee attacks should cause more knockdowns. Deathclaws and strong characters with sledgehammers are already on-target here, but whacking people in the legs just seems like it should cause more knockdowns that it does in the current Fallout system. Furthermore, I think that there should be some chance (perhaps modified by the target's strength and/or endurance) that a character who is knocked down may drop his weapon. After all, I doubt I'd have the presence of mind to hold onto my SMG if someone whacked me in the chest with a sledgehammer.

Anyhoo, that's what I'd be looking at doing with unarmed/melee combat. As a guy who really enjoys smashing Enclave troopers with a sledgehammer, I think we need some or all of those 5 more than we need multi-hex combo attacks or kung-fu. If nothing else, the people who dis unarmed surely are saying that unarmed sucks in comparison to guns. Gun users aren't likely to crowd around me, asking for a big multi-hex melee combo attack, are they? So adding such things won't balance unarmed out with guns. And if the multiple assailants crowding me are also melee types, then it doesn't particularly matter how balanced or unbalanced melee combat is, because they're stuck with the same system I am.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

4. If you think all my other suggestions suck, consider a midlevel perk to help out melee fighters. Berzerker rage or something. A mechanic that will let a melee character have a chance at duking it out up close against those midlevel automatic weapons. Or even just drop the level requirement on Slayer a bit. I know that last bit may sound slightly overpowered, but it can't be nearly as disruptive as the gauss rifle was, and it's something to try.

I think they all have sucked, and this one sucks as well. As someone that primarily plays melee/unarmed, there are plenty of these perks as of Fallout 2's perk system. About the only thing that might be a decent addition would be improving HtH Evade for Unarmed a shade more. A perk that allows an Unarmed(but not melee) character to get 1.5APs for a round where they aren't actually making an attack might be useful as well - like HtH Sprint, so they can catch people fleeing.

Gun users aren't likely to crowd around me, asking for a big multi-hex melee combo attack, are they? So adding such things won't balance unarmed out with guns. And if the multiple assailants crowding me are also melee types, then it doesn't particularly matter how balanced or unbalanced melee combat is, because they're stuck with the same system I am.

This is a good point. Most ranged guys do fire from a distance, not point blank, so what would be the point of combos?

 

[atoga]

The Republican party included a strong pro-tariff plank in its 1860 platform. They also sent prominent tariff advocates such as Morrill and Sherman to campaign in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, where the tariff was popular, by touting the Morrill bill. Both Democratic candidates, John C. Breckinridge and Stephen Douglas, opposed all high tariffs and protectionism in general.[6]
Historian Reinhard H. Luthin documents the importance of the Morrill Tariff to the Republicans in the 1860 presidential election.[7] Abraham Lincoln's record as a protectionist and support for the Morrill Tariff bill, he notes, helped him to secure support in the important electoral college state of Pennsylvania, as well as neighboring New Jersey. Lincoln carried Pennsylvania handily in November, as part of his sweep of the North.
On February 14, 1861, President-elect Lincoln told an audience in Pittsburgh that he would make a new tariff his priority in the next session if the bill did not pass by inauguration day on March 4.

 

[Chairface]

I think they all have sucked, and this one sucks as well. As someone that primarily plays melee/unarmed, there are plenty of these perks as of Fallout 2's perk system. About the only thing that might be a decent addition would be improving HtH Evade for Unarmed a shade more. A perk that allows an Unarmed(but not melee) character to get 1.5APs for a round where they aren't actually making an attack might be useful as well - like HtH Sprint, so they can catch people fleeing.

But most of those perks don't even the score. Bonus HtH Damage? It's practically worthless. Bonus HtH Attacks is good, HtH Sprint would be good too. I'm not talking about throwing in even more useless perks for melee types, but giving us one really good one. Melee types have lots more perks available to us, but few of them (Bonus HtH Attacks and Slayer excluded) are any good. And given that there's a Bonus Ranged Attacks perk, and the Sniper perk, there's really nothing good available to melee types that isn't available (ok, so Sniper isn't *quite* as good as Slayer, but it's still comparable) to ranged types.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Bonus HtH Damage would be decent if it were percentage based, though. If it gave you something like +5% damage, then it'd be a hell of a lot more useful than +2 damage points. HtH Evade is a damned nice skill for Unarmed, it just doesn't work well for melee.

I don't think combining skills is the way to go, though. Nor do I think adding gimmicks like combo moves is good either.

 

[Chairface]

Bonus HtH Damage would be decent if it were percentage based, though. If it gave you something like +5% damage, then it'd be a hell of a lot more useful than +2 damage points. HtH Evade is a damned nice skill for Unarmed, it just doesn't work well for melee.

I'll buy that, but what's the level req on HtH Evade? IIRC, it's high enough level to be too late for what I'm talking about; The midgame when hostiles commonly have automatic weapons, and the PC doesn't have power armor.

 

[Kindo]

Sorry if I'm not too constructive about this, but I don't like the idea of a Fallout beat em-up game.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Sorry if I'm not too constructive about this, but I don't like the idea of a Fallout beat em-up game.

That really depends on what you mean by "beat 'em up". The Unarmed skill should be useful - but Kung Fu just doesn't fit in with Fallout's setting. If anything, JE Sawyer should watch some old 1950s westerns and other films that feature fisticuffs, and base the fighting style of Fallout 3 on that, rather than have kung fu stances and combo attacks.