They Can Keep the God-Damned Plane

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8-Ball

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A woman is widowed and a child orphaned because the U.S. has "legally" committed acts of international espionage; the U.S. is following its inane modus operandi of blaming China for not saying, "Oh, we're sorry; here's your plane... you can keep spying on us, we really don't care."

Seriously; if the U.S. caught China with a "reconnassaince" plane out in international waters, China would never hear the end of it. The rules regarding information-gathering would be changed so that up until the EP-3's radar range away from a country's border may information gathering take place.

Not that The People's Republic of China has some sort of government that's happy and peaceful and true to Communist ideals; Mao's teachings are disregarded by the near-Stalinist government guilty of such atrocities as its reaction to the protest at Tianemen Square (correct me on incorrect spelling). China is already reforming to a Socialist government with its stock exchange and its factories and trade emphasis, but China won't turn into a "good" Communist country like Cuba or Vietnam and a "Capitalist Revolution" is what China needs.

Anyway, back to the point; China has every right to keep the plane and to all you FO prophets: China has plenty of nuclear weapons but only about a hundred ICBM rockets to launch them over to the U.S. and even if the superior size of China's military might help it when the U.S. money runs out, that's not going to happen. The plane might get sent back but China is only holding it to tell the U.S. "don't mess with us," as it were.

If Bush (by Bush I mean his administration; the guy's just a puppet)really wants to do anything drastic to get the plane back a hundred corporations will tug on the chains they have attached to him, reminding Bush that they have cheap-labor factories in China and wouldn't want to lose them over anything above another anti-Communist propaganda campaign.

Well, those were my 2 cents; feel free to argue.

8-Ball
 
[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Apr-13-01 AT 04:37AM (GMT)[p]You are right my friend. And then you got something wich i call misplaced patriotism. I just saw Bush giving a speech in a university. And these people are expected to be smart. The guy got cheered like i never saw before. It is OK that they want their people back but they are acting like they did nothing wrong and the others are to blame. The people in the US (i am not saying that every US citizen is like this) seem to blindly follow what their leaders are telling them and they love it to. Haven't i seen something like that before ?

JR

Nunc ut nunquam
 
>A woman is widowed and a
>child orphaned because the U.S.
>has "legally" committed acts of
>international espionage; the U.S. is
>following its inane modus operandi
>of blaming China for not
>saying, "Oh, we're sorry; here's
>your plane... you can keep
>spying on us, we really
>don't care."

I seriously think China should do what Russia did with our spy plane back when one crashed in the USSR: return it in pieces.

>Seriously; if the U.S. caught China
>with a "reconnassaince" plane out
>in international waters, China would
>never hear the end of
>it. The rules regarding information-gathering
>would be changed so that
>up until the EP-3's radar
>range away from a country's
>border may information gathering take
>place.

Double standard you might say.

>Not that The People's Republic of
>China has some sort of
>government that's happy and peaceful
>and true to Communist ideals;

... which never happens.

>Mao's teachings are disregarded by
>the near-Stalinist government guilty of
>such atrocities as its reaction
>to the protest at Tianemen
>Square (correct me on incorrect
>spelling).

Hey, if I were in the same position, I'd do the same thing. Only I'd do a better job keeping reporters out.

>China is already reforming
>to a Socialist government with
>its stock exchange and its
>factories and trade emphasis, but
>China won't turn into a
>"good" Communist country like Cuba
>or Vietnam

Good? I don't know about that, more like "small." There's not a whole lot those two communist states can really do except mouth off (Castro).

>and a "Capitalist
>Revolution" is what China needs.

It's really already underway. China is more open now than it ever was. The government may keep tight control, but when it comes to trade markets China is big business.

>Anyway, back to the point; China
>has every right to keep
>the plane and to all
>you FO prophets: China has
>plenty of nuclear weapons but
>only about a hundred ICBM
>rockets to launch them over
>to the U.S. and even

But hey, they stole the plans for our MIRV nuclear missiles so those hundred or so missiles could be filled with 20 nuclear re-entry vehicles apiece. Also China doesn't scrimp on the kilotons, China has the largest arsenal of > 1 MT nuclear missiles, some of which are 20MT. They're not all that great when it comes to tactical strikes (though they can hammer a silo field pretty well), but they'll leave a bigger scorch mark.

>if the superior size of
>China's military might help it
>when the U.S. money runs
>out, that's not going to
>happen. The plane might get
>sent back but China is
>only holding it to tell
>the U.S. "don't mess with
>us," as it were.

>If Bush (by Bush I mean
>his administration; the guy's just
>a puppet)really wants to do
>anything drastic to get the
>plane back a hundred corporations
>will tug on the chains
>they have attached to him,
>reminding Bush that they have
>cheap-labor factories in China and
>wouldn't want to lose them
>over anything above another anti-Communist
>propaganda campaign.

Hey, China's holding the card on this deal. The USA has more to lose than China when it comes to trade relations. China may suffer, but they don't have to worry about the populace getting mad at the politicians. They're pretty self sufficient too.

And what's the USA going to do, declare war? China should have sat back and demanded the full apology they deserved. Hell, if the USSR would've probably executed those 24 prisoners. They're being nice by only demanding an apology and a look through the plane.

The part *I* don't like about this is that the media is going to call these 24 schmoes "heros," which they are not. They were thrown into a problem and it was solved elsewhere. Plus they're probably enjoying the food and relaxation over there in China.

I really hate how the media overuses and misuses the word "hero." A "hero" is a person who risks their life to save another. Celebrities, sports stars, students, and of course recon pilots are *NOT* heros. People who call those people "heros" are *idiots*.

-Xotor-

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>Not that The People's Republic of
>China has some sort of
>government that's happy and peaceful
>and true to Communist ideals;
>Mao's teachings are disregarded by
>the near-Stalinist government guilty of
>such atrocities as its reaction
>to the protest at Tianemen
>Square

The rulers at the time of the Tiananmen events were persecuted by Mao during the Cultural Revolution, a period where the horrors of social engineering where more than exposed; they learned nothing with those times and commited the same crimes, wich showed that the Gang-of-four trials were nothing but a power strugle, and China remained and remains basically the Midle Empire as always; i fear them, i don`t have any sort of empathy whatsoever for them, their pilots or whatever.


(correct me on incorrect
>spelling). China is already reforming
>to a Socialist government with
>its stock exchange and its
>factories and trade emphasis, but
>China won't turn into a
>"good" Communist country like Cuba
>or Vietnam and a "Capitalist
>Revolution" is what China needs.


China is a burocratic and controled capitalist state, with all those "good" things from the communist times: no strikes allowed, a obeying to the extreme population and control over information(they have plans to ban the internet outside corporate world and have their country wyde network, 1984 anyone?), a disciplined army and secret police(they have several, actually).
That allows to the most savage capitalism in the world.

Now Vietnam, that`s a totally different horror story...

>If Bush (by Bush I mean
>his administration; the guy's just
>a puppet)really wants to do
>anything drastic to get the
>plane back a hundred corporations
>will tug on the chains
>they have attached to him,
>reminding Bush that they have
>cheap-labor factories in China and
>wouldn't want to lose them
>over anything above another anti-Communist
>propaganda campaign.

Yeah, you hit the spot there


President Ziao Ze Min once told this to the last Macau (Macao in english) governor who asked him why they agreed so easilly with the 50 years the portuguese asked for Macao to have a special status inside the People`s Republic:
"Because we know that in fifty years we will have a very different political situation, but we know for sure that the west will have too, so we can wait; time in China is very different from your<western> time."
Now that`s something to think about...
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Just to piss Xotor off: Communisn isn't a bad thing. Hi Xotor, remember me? :) Just kidding, the communist idea is realy nice and everything but it's impossible to work out in rea life, that's why I'm an anarchist. :) Don't start it again Xotor.
But seriously, I HATE the yankees double standards. I agree with 8-Ball (for once, it's been so long since I last been here that I don't know if I have before): Let the chinese keep the fucking plane.

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"Call me a vagabond, and I'll smile. Call me a thief, and I'll laugh. Call me a liar, and I feed you your liver."
 
>Just to piss Xotor off: Communisn
>isn't a bad thing. Hi
>Xotor, remember me? :) Just
>kidding, the communist idea is
>realy nice and everything but
>it's impossible to work out
>in rea life, that's why
>I'm an anarchist. :) Don't
>start it again Xotor.

Anarchy doesn't exist.

>But seriously, I HATE the yankees
>double standards. I agree with
>8-Ball (for once, it's been
>so long since I last
>been here that I don't
>know if I have before):
>Let the chinese keep the
>fucking plane.

Well I'd want my plane back, but I think China is entitled to rummage through it a bit. The USSR returned one of our spy planes in pieces.

-Xotor-

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why dont you bitch about the US more 8-Ball? seems thats all you do. who cares abou tthe US? for a country that you hold such contempt for you sure talk about it a lot.
 
[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-01 AT 05:35AM (GMT)[p]Lieutenant William Calley was a fine man. He served his country fighting in the Vietnam War. Lt. Calley and his squadron were found guilty beyond all reasonable doubt of, at the infamous My Lai massacre; sodomization of young girls, the use of babies as target practice, the bayonetting of children before their mothers and vice versa, etc.

Lieutenant Calley's actions were required actions against the Communists who to this day keep POW's locked up in prison camps for the purposes of.. uh.. torturing them... they are evil Asian Communists, you know!

Calley was tried and convicted guilty; but he was soon paroled and didn't really get much punishment. There was even a song, The Battle Hymn of Lieutenant Calley, made in his honor.

The U.S. was a fine nation to let him go paroled; it seems wrong that such cowards as James Dursi, who refused to fire upon mothers and children thrown into a ditch with Calley and weeping, sickeningly reluctant assistant Don Meadlo, be let off with lighter punishmends.

"People were dying on top of each other; mothers were jumping on top of their children..." Dursi said. It is obvious that he has changed the facts to glorify the Communists!

In response to the destruction of the capital of Ben Tre province; an American officer gave this statement: "We had to destroy the town to save it." How's that for the ends justifying the means? Of course this is all Communist propaganda and has no value!!

That's my view of the United States. I've decided to not bitch about it anymore because the US is really a great world power whose napalm-bombings of undefended villages in Vietnam and North Korea killed hundreds of thousands of "innocents" who had it coming for being in league with the Communists.

To add on to uncaring about people, even its own; the government knew that there was an American-holding Japanese POW camp well inside in the blast radius of the Nagasaki bomb but they bombed it anyway because of its "Concentration of population and activity..." Well even if Japan was going to surrender in another month; Russia was about to enter the war and who wants Russia to have some control over the Economic Superduperpower known as Japan?

About those bastards' public opinion: It is obvious that supporters of evil Fascist Communist (hell, I can't tell the difference anymore!!) dictator Fidel Casto is cheered by thousands when he goes anywhere because otherwise they will be locked up and tortured in jail! Of course in other Fascist states, 30,000 political prisoners have been killed in incredibly short time periods while Cuba only jails its right-wing, SPOKEN dissidents but who cares? Those 30,000 were Communists and Socialists and general left-wingers so they had it coming!!!

I love the USA!!!
 
Of course I am! I'm making fun of the educated moral right-winger... not Republican, I mean further down the scale, closer to Fascism but not really there yet...
 
[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-01 AT 09:09AM (GMT)[p]Well shucks 8-ball, I'm pretty peeved at the fact that conquistadors from Spain would hang natives by their thumbs over hot coals for entertainment only to skewer them when they were sick of their crying.

Whoa, and remember Cortez and the fate of Tenochtitlan, the most beautiful and largest city in the world at that time? He tore down the whole place, sunk it, killed almost all 1 million people too, and now what's left? Mexico City.

And you know what else? I'm truly sickened by the fact that Nazi doctors experimented on Jews by depressurizing them to see how pilots could survive high altitudes. They also went on to see if you could change the color of a person's eyes by using methol blue. Betcha that hurt. All this was in the name of medicine!

You know what else makes me mad? That Japan marched into Nanking, China, raped thousands of girls in the local schools, and shot the brothers and fathers of the girls when they tried to stop it. I've read you could hear the screams all day and all night. This lasted for months. Ironically, it was the *Nazis* in the area that did their best to put an end to it.

Anyone batting a tear at the hundreds of old beautiful buildings bulldozed by Stalin in order to set up bleak *concrete* structures in their place while Stalin and his cronies lived life on high in palaces? Beautiful isn't it?

And how about those poor monks in Tibet that were slaughtered during the Cultural Revolution of China? Sheesh, they were pretty harmless and it was all for what? I mean why try taking over *Tibet* of all places, it just full of mountains and temples.

And damn, down in Rwanda, rebels force village men to watch as their wives and children have their arms and legs cut off with chainsaws only to be presented with the option to join or die the same death. The choice is probably the worst part of the punishment.

Do you not remember how thousands of ethnic Albanians were forced out of their villages into the surrounding countryside as Serb armies torched their villages? Those were the lucky ones, many women were raped and the men of the villages killed. How would you like to have to walk out of your country on a rail road track for fear of land mines on the sides? Sadly the situation has reversed, people never learn from their experiences.

--

What I'm trying to get at is that when you try labelling the USA as some kind of great evil nation, try taking a look back in history. Practically every nation has been guilty of some sort of heinous attrocity that makes you wish the nation would fall because of it. Any nation that *hasn't* caused such attrocities were never big to begin with.

Yeah, Vietnam occured in recent history, but so have many attrocities. Your hostility towards the USA for its attrocities is exactly what causes more attrocities. The past is the past, and if you don't learn from it, at least don't dwell on it.

Even in your previous message, you could see that one man does not represent the country, or even the rest of his troop. So he was pardoned, well that sucks, but get on with it. I mean hell, the Vietnam war was in the SEVENTIES, you probably weren't even *born* then. If you can't get over an even that happened before your own birth, you'll never get on with your life.

-Xotor-

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>Do you not remember how thousands
>of ethnic Albanians were forced
>out of their villages into
>the surrounding countryside as Serb
>armies torched their villages?
>Those were the lucky ones,
>many women were raped and
>the men of the villages
>killed. How would you
>like to have to walk
>out of your country on
>a rail road track for
>fear of land mines on
>the sides? Sadly the
>situation has reversed, people never
>learn from their experiences.

wtf is this now? Can no one feel sorry for Serbs that were alughtered there? Can no one feel sorry for killed Serbs which were killed since NATO came to Kosovo? Can't no one see why the real bad guy is here? I'm really dissapointed now... no more comments on this...

--
Miroslav, mpanic@tehnicom.net
No Mutants Allowed - Fallout WebSite
http://fallout.gamestats.com/
 
Humanity's evil, yes; I was just pointing out that the U.S. was, as Martin Luther King, Jr., called it, "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world" And no, I don't agree with that last paragraph about the Serbs and the Albanians either.

sorry, I just had to reply... won't happen again; please delete the thread
 
>>Sadly the
>>situation has reversed, people never
>>learn from their experiences.
>
>wtf is this now? Can no
>one feel sorry for Serbs
>that were alughtered there? Can
>no one feel sorry for
>killed Serbs which were killed
>since NATO came to Kosovo?
>Can't no one see why
>the real bad guy is
>here? I'm really dissapointed now...
>no more comments on this...

That's why I said it was sad that the situation is reversed now. Now the Serbs are oppressed and abused. Also it was more directed at the people under Milosevic's command, the Serb populace didn't have anything to do with those attacks.

-Xotor-

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Sorry, Xotor; I completely missed those last three paragraphs of your first post in this thread... well, here is an added reply:

No, one man does not represent a nation, but there were many Lieutenants Calley and many My Lai incidents in the war. Calley's pardoning was in part due to the fact that prowar Americans thought he had been unfairly singled out in a wave of similar crimes.

About forgetting a 55-year-old incident (yes, Vietnam was in a constant state of warfare from 1945 to 1975; be it with Japan, France, the United States, or a puppet regime's forces) that took place before my birth: I don't fully understand the meaning of "getting over" such a disgusting war. I also don't fully understand why I should forget the deaths of the innocent people who fought on all different sides, and with their deaths one of the turning points of the human race. To forget our history is to forget ourselves! I'm not forgetting Vietnam.
 
>About forgetting a 55-year-old incident (yes,
>Vietnam was in a constant
>state of warfare from 1945
>to 1975; be it with
>Japan, France, the United States,
>or a puppet regime's forces)
>that took place before my
>birth: I don't fully understand
>the meaning of "getting over"
>such a disgusting war. I
>also don't fully understand why
>I should forget the deaths
>of the innocent people who
>fought on all different sides,
>and with their deaths one
>of the turning points of
>the human race. To forget
>our history is to forget
>ourselves! I'm not forgetting Vietnam.

You're not just remembering Vietnam, you're dwelling on it. Yeah, Vietnam was a worthless war, but please, get on with your life. Don't you have something in the *present* that is of more concern?

Why did I list all those past attrocities and problems that occured years, and some, centuries ago? Because that list I describes only a few of probably millions of events in history that we could dwell upon and complain about.

I could probably go on and on about the Inquisition, or even the destruction of Tenochtitlan, but seriously, I've got better things to do.

Complaining is something humans just love to do that wastes the time of everyone around them including themselves. Complaining is the act of dwelling on the bad points of a situation that cannot be changed.

I'm not asking you to forget, I'm asking you to get on with your life. There's a point when you need to ask yourself, do I really need to care this much? I mean, if you're lending this much concern over an event that happened three decades ago, I can only imagine the level of complaining that you administer to the people around you when you so much as bump your toe.

It's in the past, get over it.

-Xotor-

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I wasn't dwelling on this before Karmalade asked me to bitch about the US, was I? I was concentrating on the present, i.e. the Sino-US spy-plane crisis.
 
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