US Army close combat technique?

victor

victor

Antediluvian as Feck
Orderite
So Marek (former orderite) told me on MSN that the US Army (or part of it) has adopted Mixed Martial arts (MMA) as a style taught to recruits for self defence. If true, this is pretty stupid. Along with Tae Kwon do and kickboxing, there's barely any style more adapted to competitions than MMA. There are rules, and the style is pretty much based off these rules (e.g no fish hooking, no eye gouging, no neck breaking, no kick or knee to the groin). Soldiers should instead be taught self defence styles like krav maga or sambo, that can be applied in combat. But hey, if the goal isn't to kill the enemy, but to make him tap out, then what the hell?

Can anyone active in the US Army confirm this?
 
Actually, we are taught how to effectively choke people into unconsiousness, break bones, use pressure points to subdue people... The Goal with the Combatives Training is to subdue people in a less than lethal manner. this is particularly useful in a crowded area where fireing your weapon may cause excess civilian casulties..

Also note: US Army combatives have no real rules and it is quite possable to kill someone using the techniques... But essentially it's a Less Than Lethal close combat tactic..
 
But why? Being able to choke out an opponent or break one of his limbs in MMA usually implies going to the ground, which is absolutely the last thing you want to do in a crowd. A good kick in the balls, especially with army boots, will force anyone down on the ground, for a long time.
 
The Overseer said:
But why?
Click to expand...

Because the operative procedure of the U.S. Army is shit. They are either committing atrocious war crimes when they think nobody is watching or handling with velvet gloves situations that require an iron fist when CNN is around.

ED IT: Teh Spellcheckzorz
 
The US cares about civilian causalties?

Oh, right. Army, not CIA.
 
I think it might have something to do with this. While I agree with the sport and sparring part of it, tournament Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu has jack-shitsu applicable in combat unless every other person on the field suddenly falls down dead on their own. As that is one of the prime basis for MMA, I really can't support soldiers learning it aside from oblique change-ups they can insert into real applicable combat arts. Some styles are great one-on-one, like Judokan, but in real combat, they have no place.

Then there's the ever-popular and ever-shitty Walt Bayless tapes that have been around since 95 titled "Combat Jiu Jitsu Series" from a company called "Advanced Street Fighting", detailing some moves that most dojo owners wouldn't teach you, mainly because you would end up with your ass getting planted if you think a street fight (which he supposedly made the tapes for, supposedly for the moves that would have the greatest chance of working in a street fight) consists of clinching and then using rather weak takedowns. Yeah... soft moves like that when even in 1995, knives and guns were a bit common. Oh, and again, good luck if there's more than one opponent.

There's a good reason why the Japanese took jiu-jitsu and made two different forms of it - a gentle way (judo) and a more vicious way (akido). The gentle way made it appeal towards the common people in making martial arts popular. The more vicious way making it practical for warfare and to a far faster and more debilitating result than what jiu-jitsu teaches, and has application in combat because it does not tie you up with a chain of jiu-jitsu takedowns styles, though it does not lend well to tournaments or even sparring.

Hence how Steven Seagull got "popular", even though his style is sluggish, inefficient compared to other styles of akido, flashy even off-camera, and is generally considered a joke among real masters of many styles on both sides of the Pacific as a blowhard that brings dishonor upon his style. Even before the gutbusted kimono and his attempt at a music career (holy fucking shit, this is bad). Hell, even Gene LeBell honored him with some humility, causing ol' Seagull to shit himself in self-defense the second time LeBell choked him out on the set of a Seagull movie (and shitting yourself after passing out IS one way of getting out of a choke hold...). It started with Seagull bragging that there was no hold or lock he couldn't escape (STUPID!), then LeBell stepped up and handed handed Seagull's ass back to him, shitstained kimono and all, as the second time around Seagull tried to grab LeBell's crotch, then passed out, soiled himself, and then flopped like a fish.

Then, a similar incident with Bob Wall. (More about the SS vs. Judo Gene "match" in the beginning of that thread - hearing Seagull get his overhyped fat ass kicked always brings a smile to the part of me that is Japanese and likes to see true white trash ninjas get their ass handed back to them, especially if it's in legendary proportions. Oh, and I think this incident might have had something to do with why Seagull's forums are down indefinitely.) :D
 
IIRC from basic training most hand to hand combat taught in the Army is worthless.

Modern armies use guns, and we reflect that in our training overly much.

The act of fighting without a weapon is antithema to most modern soldiers I'm afraid.
 
I received a day of combat training in the Army. One fucking day. It doesn't matter what they teach anyway. No one gets close enough to the enemy to do close combat anymore unless your elite; Special forces,Ranger,Delta,etc....Even then they probably just gun the fuck out of the enemy.
 
I know in the Marines they have the MArine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP, pronounced mac-map) and they teach it at basic training. The program has its own series of belts that you have to test for, and the school for instructors is in Quantico, VA. To get belts you have to find an instructor, there is no one job of martial arts instructor, you do it on your own time. The program was developed with a number of Marines from the Republic of Korea, and all they do is hand to hand stuff, and Ken Shamrock among others. The program is fairly new, and the lowest levels they teach at boot camp isn't a significant amount of training, but Marines who get the higher levels say that it is in fact a very good program.
 
Well in war the aim isn't about killing the opponent. You just need to drop the opponent (no reason to kill him). In combat you don't shoot those that are bleeding and already pretty-much-dying. The harder it becomes when you have injured mates and the morale drops (or rises...), but it's harder to fight when you need to take care of people (medics). Dead are dead.

Shoot one in the leg, and then shoot the others in the head when they help him.

There is a fine difference (possibly only theoretical) between killing and stopping power. The aim is to STOP (killing the other guy is usually a good way to achieve this...)

I do agree that they should teach you to drop the opponent as fast as possible (drop = can't harm anyone). Choking him for 3min or kicking him in the nuts (if a male) and then in the head...I'd take the latter because it's faster.

But generally speaking if you need to use close combat techniques you already fucked something up quite well.
________
Uhwh
 
Chokeing a person for 3 minutes? are you TRYING to kill them?

It never took me longer than 90 seconds to choke a person unconsious once I got behind them.. but again, that was incombatives class in basic and AIT... back when i was in peak physical condition...

If you're choking someone for 3 minutes, you are ether trying to kill them, or doing it all wrong...
 
In Brazilian jiu-Jitsu (BJJ), I can choke someone in les than 20 seconds, if done properly. My point is that 90 seconds is still a VERY long time. The Rear Neck Choke I suppose they teach in the US Army Close combat program, that is also present in BJJ and MMA cuts the blood flow to the brain, effectively making your opponent pass out quickly. There's still some danger of him going braindead though, so if you just want to submit your opponent without killing him (which according to some posts I assume is the goal of the program) you should just break his arm, wrist or leg, which can be done equally fast, if not faster.


I can only see the use of teaching this technique to Military Police and units whose objectives it is to take high-ranking prisoners, hostages, and the like. If the goal is to kill silently, use a knife.
 
They teach it to all soldiers because you never know then you get deployed if some commander is going to say "Hail marry full-a-grace you're all now MP's, go guard some prisoners"
 
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