USSR or China

John Uskglass

Venerable Relic of the Wastes
Am I the only one upset that in the Fallout world China is the enemy? I mean if it really was an alternate future, why would the USSR collapse-especially if computer technology never went past the three stories tall calculators? Not only that, but the idea of a cold war between China and the USA is uniquely un-1950.
 
I agree. I think China should be allied with the US or USSR, and not be a world superpower that is fighting against the US.
 
Another contentious issue is the impact of the investor state dispute settlement obligations contained in Chapter 11 of the NAFTA.[46] Chapter 11 allows corporations or individuals to sue Mexico, Canada or the United States for compensation when actions taken by those governments (or by those for whom they are responsible at international law, such as provincial, state, or municipal governments) violate the international law.[47] This chapter has been criticized by groups in the U.S.,[48] Mexico,[49] and Canada[50] for a variety of reasons, including not taking into account important social and environmental[51] considerations. In Canada, several groups, including the Council of Canadians, challenged the constitutionality of Chapter 11. They lost at the trial level[52] and have subsequently appealed. Methanex Corporation, a Canadian corporation, filed a US$970 million suit against the United States, claiming that a California ban on Methyl tert-butyl ether (MTBE), a substance that had found its way into many wells in the state, was hurtful to the corporation's sales of methanol. However, the claim was rejected, and the company was ordered to pay US$3 million to the U.S. government in costs. The tribunal based its decision namely on following reasoning: But as a matter of general international law, a non-discriminatory regulation for a public purpose, which is enacted in accordance with due process and, which affects, inter alios, a foreign investor or investment is not deemed expropriatory and compensable unless specific commitments had been given by the regulating government to the then putative foreign investor contemplating investment that the government would refrain from such regulation.[53] In another case, Metalclad, an American corporation, was awarded US$15.6 million from Mexico after a Mexican municipality refused a construction permit for the hazardous waste landfill it intended to construct in Guadalcázar, San Luis Potosí. The construction had already been approved by the federal government with various environmental requirements imposed (see paragraph 48 of the tribunal decision). The NAFTA panel found that the municipality did not have the authority to ban construction on the basis of the environmental concerns.[54] Eli Lilly and Company v. Government of Canada[55] is a US$500mn claim for faulty drug patent legislation.[56] Apotex is suing the U.S. for US$520mn because of lost opportunity in a FDA generic drug decision.[56] Lone Pine Resources Inc. v. Government of Canada[57] has filed a US$250mn claim against Canada, whom it accuses of "arbitrary, capricious and illegal" behaviour,[58] because Quebec aims to prevent fracking exploration under the St. Lawrence Seaway.[56] Milos Barutciski, the lawyer who represents Lone Pine, has decried attempts to portray his client as "another rapacious multinational challenging governments’ ability to regulate for health, safety and the environment". Lone Pine Resources is incorporated in Delaware but headquartered in Calgary,[58] and had an initial public offering of stock on the NYSE on May 25, 2011, which offered 15M shares each for $13 and raised US$195mn.[59] Barutciski acknowledged "that NAFTA and other investor-protection treaties create an anomaly in that Canadian companies that have also seen their permits rescinded by the very same Quebec legislation, which expressly forbids the paying of compensation, do not have the right pursue a NAFTA claim," and that winning "compensation in Canadian courts for domestic companies in this case would be more difficult since the Constitution puts property rights in provincial hands."[58] A treaty with China would extend similar rights to Chinese investors, including SOEs.[58]
 
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Actually when you consider that China fought the US recently in Korea, that the Chinese were spreading revolution throughout the Southeast Asia and had been aggressive against Taiwan, it makes sense that the Chinese are the big baddie. Add that to notion of the "Yellow Peril" common of the day, and it makes the Chinese an ideal bad guy.
 
Welsh, the idea that a "yella" race in the 1950s coulb compete, let alone compete equally against the US was absurd. This is the last decade when people could admit to admiring D.W. Griffith, when the the civil rights movement was still young. All Nuclear powers where former colonial nations (or still where). China did not even develop Nukes until the 70s.
My other major beef was a referance to the EU.......how about changing that to just Europe, because the idea of a unified Europe in 1950 sounds silly at best.
 
ConstinpatedCraprunner said:
My other major beef was a referance to the EU.......how about changing that to just Europe, because the idea of a unified Europe in 1950 sounds silly at best.

I agree that the EU should have had its name changed, but remember that the FO universe isn't the '50s writ large, but rather a blend of '30s - '50s pulp sci-fi and WWII/Cold War social attitudes. (Mad Max and the Leibowitz books form the basis for the Post Apocalyptic aspects.) So what may have seemed absurd in 1950 to "Joe Schmoe" could indeed come to pass.

As to the idea that China is the big enemy, that's not far-fetched, even from the sci-fi angle since quite a few forward looking Americans were already predicting the eventual collapse of the USSR and its successor's re-alignment with the West. Note that in Starship Trooper (1959) R. A. Heinlein has just that coming to be (along w/a collapse of the western democracies due to a lack of civic involvement on the part of citizens).

Heinlein's (and others') predicted reason for the collapse of the USSR was economic. No SDI or computer revolution required.

Cheers,

OTB
 
Never found it odd

Well I think it is extremely fitting for it to be China. Especially since the dates of Fallout Apocolypse are not set in the 1950's but closer to the 2070's. The concept of a unified Europe would probably be likely by then, also, especially since the EU has already incorporated unified currency that is seemingly as strong as the US dollar.

Considering the game was made in the late 90's I think they did a fine job of perdicting the nature of International Relations for 2077.

Also, wouldn't 4 foot tall computers be in major government facilities? If you look in the residential settings the PCs are usually a lot smaller. Major servers and RAID setups that would house a network like those of a Vault would undoubtly be pretty bulky and not some Alienware laptop with a 54g wireless ethernet card. Military electrontic hardware is not small like a desktop computer.

Not to mention that the weapons of Fallout are more modern than 1950... I don't think Desert Eagle's have been around all that long... Fallout Tactics weaponary makes the case even stronger. A lot of the weapons were developed during the Cold War and weren't popularized until well into the Soviet decline.

Films like Atomic Cafe, 1950's PSAs, and other post apoc pop-culture are ripe for finding a good material for setting up an easily identifiable atmosphere for a game. While people today don't build fallout shelters, they will rush to the store to grab duct tape and platic sheeting. The threat of nuclear war has definitely subsided, but it still looms, 1950 was the hey-day of the big Judgement Day Nuclear war scare. Back then it was a likely scenairo, and mix it with the international predictions of the late 90's, China was the largest competitor with the US and the EU was a fledgling idea.

I only hope that storyline of Fallout 3 will stick to the established and not look for "other" causes for the nuclear holocaust like terrorism, India & Pakistan, or the French. We did take that whole freedom fries thing a bit far after all...
 
Fallout Bible said:
3. What was U.S./world history like before the timeline included in previous Fallout updates?

No one has asked this yet, but I thought I would cut this question off at the pass. Fallout takes place on a future earth, in an alternate timeline. I will not be including any information on how and when it diverged - it will remain one of the mysteries of the setting. Just let it be known that it diverged after WW2, and leave it at that.

I'll let some of you mull the impact of that statement over a bit.

OTB
 
You have to remember that this game isn't supposed to the future from the 1950's viewpoint, but the future from the 1950's viewpoint as seen looking back from the present. So there is some foreknowledge that is in the story that may not have been apparent from someone living in the 50's. We now know that the Soviet Union empire is history but that the Chinese are a force to be reckoned with. Therefore that plays into the story.
 
Fallout Bible wrote:
3. What was U.S./world history like before the timeline included in previous Fallout updates?

No one has asked this yet, but I thought I would cut this question off at the pass. Fallout takes place on a future earth, in an alternate timeline. I will not be including any information on how and when it diverged - it will remain one of the mysteries of the setting. Just let it be known that it diverged after WW2, and leave it at that.

That answer is hardly an answer at all. It seems whomever said that was just uncomfortable with the question and rushed an answer...

I guess that a sensible divergence would be a China not agreeing with Stalin's Soviet Republic version of communism/Stalin having Atomic weapons and they invade Russian shortly after WW2 before Russia fully developes the bomb and China siezes control of the rusiian atomic developement.

I think that above answer is a hasty answer to just instead saying "for thematic reasons we set Fallout in the haze of 1950's atomic paranoia"
 
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