Wasteland 1 and that Old-School Skill Set Symphony

WorstUsernameEver

But best title ever!
Chris Avellone has penned a blog entry dedicated to the original Wasteland, its skill system, and how that contributes to the role-playing. Snip ahead:<blockquote>So after the skill allocation phase, it’s clear this character is physically challenged, has esoteric old world knowledge, and is gifted with electronics and machines and codes, so after remembering that Wasteland has a high technology bent, it occurred to me I had the freedom to imagine him as an android if I wanted to. And this could account for his limited mobility, esoteric pre-bomb knowledge, and his crappy CHR and DEX. Having fun and digging about the pre-knowledge of Wasteland and memories of my crappy knowledge of coding in Basic way back in the days of the TSR-80, I thought it’d be cool if I built an android that incorporated some elements of the 80s and came up with a makeshift bio:

G.I.G.0: Stands for “Garbage In, Garbage Out,” and his name reinforces that there’s something flawed in this character’s intrinsic android programming, since the last character is a “zero” not the letter “O.” I saw him as a damaged android the Rangers deem only worthwhile for reconnaissance in hazardous areas, notably because it seems like he’s been damaged already (“past warranty” is what G.I.G.0 occasionally says, although no one’s quite sure what he means when he says this - they assume it’s a location in the game, and who knows, they may be right).

While G.I.G.0 will respond to his name when addressed, he will remind each new speaker once that “G.I.G.0.” is not his original designation, which has left some inhabitants of the Wasteland to wonder what kind of nation this “Desig” may be and if all the residents are like G.I.G.0.

G.I.G.0 wandered in from the wastes, following a radio signal being broadcast from a series of TSR-80 cultists (based on this, I assumed it might also be fun if I imagined him as occasionally stopping to have conversations with radio towers and computers in the game). He walked into the base and started communicating in Basic which the cultists understood and assumed he might be some sort of programming messiah sent by the Tandy gods and lavished praise and goods on him to encourage him to stay and guide them.

As years passed, however, G.I.G.0. became their messiah of disappointment and made them wonder if the pre-war years were more of a mess than it may have seemed from the history books to have made G.I.G.0. in the first place: Initially believing that an android gift from the wastes was a blessing, the cultists discovered the android had some series of programming flaws, and as far as compiling code and helping with repairs and programming around the base, it wasn’t helpful. At all. Every computer G.I.G.0. seemed to interact with on any complex level beyond simple on/off tests created near-catastrophic failures.

After he nearly flooded the lower levels of their facility with waste after being asked to recompile the sewage treatment management code, they gave him the name “Garbage In, Garbage Out,” blaming whoever built G.I.G.0. for his current programming weaknesses. G.I.G.0. accepted this new designation, although he seems unable to spell it without replaced the “O” at the end with a zero, further proof of some fundamental programming flaw.

Generally considered a pain and a burden, the cultists were tempted to send him back out into the wastes and let him roam until he found another culture to curse with his presence. Then another plan occurred to them - they'd offload him, and kill two birds with one stone. (Or two vultures with one shotgun shell, as it were.)
</blockquote>Thanks GameBanshee.
 
Lots of skills. 27 to start, he says; for everyone, including me, it must be great. The most skills, the better. Right?

Yes, and no. Fallout, especially Fallout 2, showed the problems of having a lots of skills available and only very few you can improve. Who's going to tag Gambling, First Aid and Doctor? Nobody here, because we all know these skills are useless. The goal is to complete the game and they have no use for it, or at least cant compete with other skills like Speech, Sneak, Outdoorsman, and all the ones regarding combat.

What I'm trying to say is that the main problem with skills is: it's very difficult to make all of them (equally) useful. Avellone is aware of that. They'll try to make them all worth it. Still I challenge you to specialize in Helicopter Pilot, Safecrack, Toaster Repair. I have no doubts they will be less worth it than, for example, Perception. Not that I'm not confident with inXile's will to make them all useful, but they simply haven't enough time or money for that.

A game where Toaster Repair is a good alternative to Perception would have to be a huge game with a gigantic world map and an incredible amount of locations, a world where there are a lot of toasters indeed. I'm not sure they'll be able to do that.

In Fallout, Gambling could have been a good alternative to Speech if the world had been huge and the occasions to use Gambling were as many as the occasions to use Speech. With at least 27 skills, Wasteland 2 won't be able to make them all equal. I hope I'm wrong tho.
 
I'm not sure if I agree with you on that, Fallout and Wasteland work in fundamentally different ways when it comes to progression. In Fallout you progress solely by pooling resources into few skills, you're encouraged into specializing and putting points into three, four skills and that's it. On the other hand, Wasteland encourages you to put one/two points max in your beginning skills and then to raise them organically through your playthrough with its learn-by-use system. There are a few high-level skills you can gain only at libraries during your playthrough, but by and large you don't need them to complete the game. Furthermore, you can get some skills you didn't consider essential and realize you wanted later in the libraries.

Still, yeah, Wasteland has some problems (cryptozoology? forgery? COMBAT SHOOTING??!!!) and I'm not necessarily a fan of putting skills just for the sake of having lots of skills (it works much better in tabletop systems like GURPS where skills have base values dependent on your other skills and attributes and the DM can tailor the adventure to the party), but I think the 1988's game mitigated those inherent problems with its system design, whereas Fallout 1 & 2 actually exacerbated them.
 
WorstUsernameEver said:
On the other hand, Wasteland encourages you to put one/two points max in your beginning skills and then to raise them organically through your playthrough with its learn-by-use system. There are a few high-level skills you can gain only at libraries during your playthrough, but by and large you don't need them to complete the game. Furthermore, you can get some skills you didn't consider essential and realize you wanted later in the libraries.
Oh, good. I wrote that assuming Fallout had same skills system as Wasteland. If that's not really the case... Then I guess it's better than I thought :)
 
Izual said:
Oh, good. I wrote that assuming Fallout had same skills system as Wasteland. If that's not really the case... Then I guess it's better than I thought :)

No worries, it happens. :)

Kind of only slightly related, but I really hope they go for a point-buy system for attributes rather than the dice-rolling of the original Wasteland. While it can be enjoyable to just go with what you roll, keeping rolling until you get stats close to what you want can be rather frustrating. Maybe it could be added as an hardcore option, though.
 
I hear what he's saying about the back story.
One thing I loved about the original Final Fantasy compared to the later ones is that you choose the type of character you have, name it and they tell you that whatever your previous circumstances in life were, you are now charged with this duty. (My sisters and I each named a character after ourselves and the last one was Xena. We'd take turns playing and chronicle the journey. Of course, embellishing things a tad.)

In games where you can build your character right down to how far their chin sticks out, I think this makes a lot more sense than having too much history. (I'm going to be a ruthless murderer, stalking the wastes, enslaving people. But I still want to find my daddy and help him save humanity.)

In Fallout 1 and 2, I guess that's still world building so it works. By Fallout 3 I'm starting to think 'Enough with the vaults already, we know.' But then, it did need to be reintroduced to a new generation.
NV was surprising and I think a good move in that there's not too much established history for you.(At least not yet, maybe there is later, I only just got it a week ago.)

The next step is going to be to allow people to pick and choose their races and a vague idea of past just to say whether you start in a vault/vault colony(Like Vault City), Tribe, raider camp, caravan, big city, tiny settlement, etc.
But it would have to stop short of a class system.

Izual said:
Lots of skills. 27 to start, he says; for everyone, including me, it must be great. The most skills, the better. Right?

Yes, and no. Fallout, especially Fallout 2, showed the problems of having a lots of skills available and only very few you can improve. Who's going to tag Gambling, First Aid and Doctor? Nobody here, because we all know these skills are useless. The goal is to complete the game and they have no use for it, or at least cant compete with other skills like Speech, Sneak, Outdoorsman, and all the ones regarding combat.

.

Don't quite know what you mean by that. Doctor's been saving my butt in my most recent go at FO2.

If you make a super weak character who can't carry a lot, you need to be able to pick and choose what you're carrying. The first casino is in the den. With high gambling, you could rake in the cash, buy whatever guns you want then pay off Metzger and pay for Sulik's damages.
Presuming you've given your character some useful traits by making them so weak, gambling could make up for a lot of deficiencies... Crap now I want to go try that.
 
If you are a power/meta gamer, useless skills bother you. If you can be bothered to use your imagination, as MCA has shown, the entire game changes. IMHO.

For example, I really have a hard time tagging Science or Speech or even Smallguns in my Fallout 2 characters. It makes no sense to be a dirty backwards tribesman with that skillset.
 
mobucks said:
If you are a power/meta gamer, useless skills bother you.

I wouldn't call expecting the skills you've invested points into being actually useful being a power/meta gamer, especially in titles such as Fallout that require you to specialize in very few skills.
 
You're all Todd Howarding. Yeah I said it.

Fallout 4 skills:
Kill
Talk
Heal

Repair will be used for everything else.
 
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