Fallout 1 mod Fallout Fixt - v0.90beta is being worked on! (Jan 2019)

Discussion in 'Fallout General Modding' started by Sduibek, Dec 15, 2010.

  1. Muttie

    Muttie It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Oct 9, 2017
    This is all some time ago... But I was still interested and looked into this from time to time. During that I found those “IN 10” “easter egg” dialogue options with ZAX. Which I thought may be interesting in regard to FEV/Dipping:
    Following this explanation the outcome of FEV treatment is as individual as the person dipped. This may not really help when deciding on the outcome, but it may help to explain the wide range of variations (Master, Lou, Harry, Talius/Harold, Psykers, Centaur (mixture of men and dog), smart deathclaws, raccoons, worms etc.). So that weird range of outcomes (“unpredictability”) can be explained at least (it's the subject's DNA).
    Consequently even a “pure-strain” can fail the dipping (genetic diseases etc.), it is just much more unlikely that they do as the radiation factor is removed. (although the vault-dweller may have been radiated (the glow) during the journey and suffered DNA damage).
    Still, a “normal” human being should turn into a super-mutant, normally. But it would explain oddities (the master) and wild variations (i.e. even human beings and animals may turn out differently or the DNA mixture of men/dog aka centaur). At least that's how I understand it.

    However, I have not yet found any hint of what a pure-strain human being would turn into, other than Talius [oddity] and that the usage of FEV on “pure-strains” resulted in the mutiny of Maxson and his men (i.e. the pre-war experiments at Mariposa). Which suggests something revolting (like a government experiment in the cynical FO world, I guess).

    I also remembered that Fallout Tactics has stats for ghouls & mutants. Probably one of the few “official” sources on how SPECIAL of Human, Ghoul & Mutant look like. Which may be interesting, too:
    The following are the numbers I noted down (years back), and I believe they can be found in the multi-player of FT. (The first number is the change to human (average of 5) and the second min to max):
    Ghouls are (compared to human): low ST -2 (1 to 6), high PE +3 (4 to 14), average EN +/-0 (1 to 10), slightly low CH -1 (1 to 9), improved IN +1 (2 to 13), which may represent “experience”, reduced AG -1 (1 to 8) and “lucky bastards” LK +2 (5 to 13), which is possibly a joke as they survived the fallout. A “mutant” like Harold or Talius may need some adjusting (like the LK joke), but it's an orientation (actually both Harold & Talius are smart & lucky). Besides, mutants & ghouls do have similarities like life-expectancy, plus FEV should grant radiation & poison resistance as does ghoulification. All in all, they could be treated fairly similar.
    Super-Mutants are (compared to human): high ST +3 (5 to 13), average PE +/-0 (1 to 10), improved EN +1 (4 to 12), which could be higher if looking at their min/max (perhaps +2?), unchanged CH +/- 0 which is odd as their min/max is reduced (1 to 8), so CH should probably drop, too, perhaps by -1, reduced IN -2 (1 to 8), reduced AG -2 (1 to 8) and average LK +/- (1 to 10).

    Regarding super-mutants and stupidity I would go with these stats (i.e. super-mutants' IN is 1 to 8, aka -2). That may be the most sensible thing that most can agree with (i.e. it allows for smart mutants (Lou or the super-mutant scientist in FoTactics), dumb mutants (like Harry) and the mostly intelligent mutants (i.e. the majority of mutants in FO (aka 1, 2 & tactics) are fairly articulated)). But also explain why super-mutants are generally considered dumb (i.e. their average is IN 4 not 5) (which may be the memory loss).

    Although if it helps with the whole dialogue issue, it may also be decided that the vault-dweller always dips to IN 3 or less. This is not the most likely outcome, but neither is it out of the question.

     
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  2. Oppen

    Oppen FIXT n°1 fan

    Dec 26, 2011
    My 2 cents.
    I'd rather think of it as a prerequisite: you have to already be quite lucky to survive an event like that and actually become something (in terms of survival afterwards) way better.

    My memory is likely failing, but didn't they come from fairly non-radiated backgrounds? Maybe those are some of the more "desirable" outcomes, instead of the "brutes", as the Master calls them. They are shown as *at least* human-like smart, possibly more. Also, by Bethesda's canon (YUCK!), Harold is quite... gifted? In the sense that he turns into a sort of super organism as the Master did, only in a much more innocuous way, so I wouldn't call that a bad outcome.

    We can speculate that this prejudice is the usual "mock the enemy" way of thinking? Plus, they probably look a lot dumber than they are, all hunched over and with their teeth constantly showing, and a lot of humans are quite bigoted against any kind of mutant in the Fallout universe (shown a lot more in later games).
    On the "gullible" end, it may be explained by the memory loss you talked about earlier: this kind of thing is abandoned thanks to experience, of which they lost a lot.

    Did he? Didn't he still use them for their potential as an army, possibly to later get rid of them when his conquest is finished?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  3. Muttie

    Muttie It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Oct 9, 2017
    Yes, it makes no sense if LK is gained by becoming a ghoul. I just thought of it as a „joke“ as I can't find any other reason why a ghoul is naturally more lucky than a human being (i.e. as established by Fallout Tactics). Anything else [of FoTactics SPECIAL] makes sense. This LK boost for Ghouls is a weird one. I thought that explanation was funny. And perhaps it shouldn't be seen as anything more than that. It's also a bit tongue in cheek that ghouls are the lucky ones. (“yeah, right”.)
    Anyway, this characteristic may not carry over to a mutant like Harold/Talius (although according to their proto both are lucky so...?). Plus design wise a mutant needs some boost to something and I guess LK makes the most sense. At least anything else seems even weirder.
    In FO1 Talius is considered a failure (see Talius.msg) he says he “turned out wrong and they [the mutants] let him go as a cruel joke” [roughly]. And FO1 (lore and designers) have no explanation for Harold/Talius, the bible offers various options and Taylor's was the only concrete one. (The rest boiled down to Harold is “special”, i.e. they have no idea.)
    Anyway, I think it says, “Harold was not radiated, but may have picked up some rads in the waste” and Talius had visit the Glow for the brotherhood (I think).
    To me this [Taylor said this, Cain said that] is more a strong hint that the background is inconsistent and has holes. (i.e. some fundamental points have never been established and there were different “versions” circling around). So it needs some creativity to explain “Harold/Talius” and the best I have found so far is ZAX's “DNA” comment.
    Regarding the outcome being bad. I think it should rather be looked at as: “normally” a human being turns into a super-mutant, but in some cases (DNA) something like the Master, Harold or Talius are created. So it is abnormal (cause of something having gone wrong), but good or bad is a different matter.
    Actually, I also start to think that pre-war experiments would have had the same results as the Master's experiments. When the vault-dweller gets dipped (death scene) he turns into a super-mutant. So that may be the fate of pure-strains. A different outcome is Frank Horrigan, though, then again the method may have been different (“injected, not dipped”). Perhaps “Horrigan” was the normal outcome of the pre-war experiments. (Aren't the Psykers also an outcome of injection? And Harold never got dipped. Talius did though. Still, method may also play into it.)
    Yes, and of course everyone is gullible when confronted with speech 100% :). I just think that there is a discrepancy and that the joke became a reality
    Btw, Flip is a super-mutant, and he is not mocking his own kind he is more level-headed about the whole situation (i.e. he is more aware that they are not as “superior” as the Lt and the Master think, (I think). Actually some cut content suggests that there were even more mutants who are not happy with their fate, one even may have become a companion, and a group of "thinker nightkin" who wanted peace similar to the followers). I think the story really drives the idea that mutants are stupid, but that's actually not the problem they face, but it stuck because “dumb mutants” are funny. I think this is a bit a case of “design running wild” and “not enough fundamental background work”. (i.e. development problems).
    That's possible actually. I based this comment on the only in-game material which is the master's diary (and perhaps it shouldn't be treated as 100% accurate, just as ZAX may be out of touch, too). Anyway, there he wrote something to the effect of “those dumb creatures were nothing to me and I consumed them” then “he creates the first intelligent one and the army/new race idea goes from there”. It basically implies that once he had that “breakthrough” he would not have created more “stupid” ones. Besides, if stupid/radiated they also should be dead (according to ZAX). But it's quite possible that they lowered their standards when confronted with the need to build an army. Plus this drop in quality may be the Lt's doing and the Master (sitting in LA) isn't aware of it.

    Anyway,
    To me this is whole subject is more a struggle of trying to make sense of it. I think it's possible, but I haven't entirely wrapped my head around it yet. I think it needs some leniency in regard to radiation (various effects), and to put more emphasize on the struggle on building an army, than stupidity. The question that interests me most atm is would super-mutants be more intelligent if not radiated, and would pre-war experiments have become more intelligent in general, or is what we see (super-mutants of FO1) the standard effect of FEV.
    When I played the game for the first time, I only read the master's diary and was under the impression that “radiation & stupidity” is the problem. But delving deeper into the game that may not be true. Plus the additional material (Lt, conversation with VanHagan, ZAX, Talius) always confused me back then.
     
  4. Oppen

    Oppen FIXT n°1 fan

    Dec 26, 2011
    Regarding method of administration, the Master was swimming on FEV for a good while IIRC, while super mutants are likely dipped for a way shorter period. That *might* be one cause for the results being different.

    AFAIR, yeah, injected to the spine bulb or something like that.

    As stated previously, I interpreted that as if they were goons, he doesn't care about them, and won't do any more *after* his vision is fulfilled, but he has a use for them meanwhile.

    Well, let's take into account that we saw the Master being wrong on his hypotheses before. The Vault Dweller, if smart enough, is the one to break the news about the sterility of mutants. Maybe he just *thinks* dumb mutants are dumb because of radiation. Also, now that I think of it, the Master is (or, at least, considers himself) way above humans when it comes to intelligence, so it may be the case that the "brutes" are just regular human intelligent, and that his bar is just too high.

    NOTE: I didn't answer the points where I completely agree or think your points are solid, because I think that's pointles, but I'm acknoaledging them. If I didn't mention something, it falls into this category. It may be the case that I just don't have a satisfactory answer.
     
  5. Muttie

    Muttie It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Oct 9, 2017
    Yep, like super-mutants (dipped) and Horrigan (injected). However, it isn't entirely satisfactory to explain all cases (e.g. super-mutants and Talius were both dipped but turned out differently).
    One thing that came to my mind though was that the method (dipping instead injection) may cause the brutish looks of super-mutants. So both super-mutants and Horrigan are the standard result of FEV treatment, but the dipping (violent system shock) causes disfigurement. (although according to ZAX that disfigurement is part of the mutation, and also cause for the memory-loss). But perhaps it's worse when dipped.
    It's actually quite possible. Once he realized he can create smart mutants, he went into mass-production not caring that some turn out dumb.
    It's just weird. FEV is presented as making animals more intelligent (without fail) but fails to do so on super-mutants. The master discovers radiation as the cause. But the mutants he creates are not super-intelligent (i.e. still radiated?). And ZAX says radiation damage results in death. Which is the problem the Master faces when he tries to build an army (i.e. his need for non-radiated subjects and/or subjects en mass).
    There is also a weird bit in the conversation between the Lt and vanHagan. It basically says “we found an unopened vault...with that much raw material we can create a great force...according to the prediction software the numbers we need” and then it is followed by the question “are they contaminated” and almost as an afterthought “no that is the best part, they are pure-strain.” It's really weird. As if an “unopened vault” and “pure-strain” is separated from each other.
    Perhaps one needs to somehow mix both angles (stupidity and mortality) into one like: low rad. is “normal”, middle “stupid”, high is “death”. And if not radiated at all (no DNA damage) FEV may even boost intelligence.
    Although it feels somewhat wrong that FEV could create intelligent super-soldiers. It does with deathclaws (which I like), but when it comes to human beings I'm rather thinking of Horrigan (big, violent and aggressive). There should be something repulsive about it. Especially considering Maxson's mutiny.

    ZAX also said: “The FEV is pre-programmed with introns of corrected DNA appropriate to the proper type of species. It therefore attempts to correct the DNA of the individual.” (which is then followed by the previous comment of ZAX about DNA I posted.) and followed by “...genetic damage, such as through radiation...organ failure...”
    Could this mean that FEV needs to be programmed before use? If so it that could be another explanation for post-war failure, as the used FEV isn't programmed to the subject's species. And that's why pre-war animals became more intelligent and why it fails on super-mutants. Doesn't explain Horrigan, though (i.e. those scientist should have had the ability). Or is it that the Mariposa FEV batch is for animals only and no one realized it?
    Yeah, there is always the possibility that in-game characters may be wrong. Also ZAX says he doesn't have the working facilities anymore to reach a final conclusion. However, when it comes to background study I'd rather stick with the written word as long as possible. And only pull the emergency break if everything else has become impossible.
    Besides something must be going wrong in regard to intelligence and survivability. Plus ZAX confirms radiation as a problem. However, the master could have been wrong about stupidity. He did dip animals, and they became more intelligent, then he dipped people and hadn't the same effect. And then he concluded radiation as the issue. And while radiation definitely plays into it, perhaps the real issue is that the FEV at Mariposa was pre-programmed for animals? That would be some kind of twist.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  6. Oppen

    Oppen FIXT n°1 fan

    Dec 26, 2011
    Maxson's mutiny, I think, was more about the subjects being robbed of their most basic rights rather than about the result being a possible threat.
    On the topic, I think mechanically there should be a con if allowed, but I don't see story-wise why becoming an aggressive monster is a must. The games show cases where this doesn't happen, FWIW.

    Organ failure? Maybe some of our outliers are injured or sick before contact, possibly unknowingly?

    100% agreed.

    But then again, animals were likely unprotected against radiation, so why is the result different?

    Maybe, but it's still species dependent, so an FEV tailored to rats shouldn't be too beneficial to deathclaws.
     
  7. Muttie

    Muttie It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Oct 9, 2017
    I red Maxson's log again, and it doesn't mention anything about what happened only:
    „All hell broke loose when we finally discovered what those scientist bastards were up to.“
    I assumed they saw the results of the experiments. But it's actually not made clear in the text. They really may only have been upset over the idea of experimenting on human beings (without consent) or about experimenting on fellow soldiers (although I think they used citizens) and not „turning human beings into monsters“.
    I just like the idea that if the pre-war experiments created “super-mutants” then those creatures should have been as twisted as the master's (brutish, disfigured, floaters, centaurs, people driven insane etc.) as it fits the Fo world better (imo). The idea that the FEV scientists created anything else but a “Horrigan monster” feels wrong to me.
    But who knows. Intelligent deathclaws were sensible creatures.
    It's just when the results were that positive, I assume that Maxson and his men wouldn't have started a mutiny, but took different measures (formal complaint, informing the press etc.). Mutiny is extreme. They broke alliances with the supreme command (that's extreme for a soldier). And I think what they saw must have been extreme enough to warrant that. Although it's speculation.
    It's just “this mutiny” is borderline the only hint at what FEV could have turned people into during those pre-war experiments.
    And I don't like the assumption that FEV is a miracle drug that creates a “perfect being”. That feels inherently wrong to me (intelligent deathclaws should be an exception). There must be a twist (beyond sterility). Plus, aggressive behaviour is mentioned as a FEV effect in the pre-war tests on animals (but it's not consistent, too).
    No, I quoted poorly. Here is the complete dialogue:
    Yes, that's another plot hole. Which had me question the whole radiation angle at one point. My only guess is that they were lab animals inside the base (which is a fallout shelter) and were protected from the fallout. Then again they actually may suffer the same consequences as radiated human beings (increased death rate and mutation failures/disfigurement etc.), but because the FEV is tailored to them, they still manage to become more intelligent more regularly than human beings.
    Anyway, the fact that radiation does not seem to affect animals is another plot hole in Fo1. :confused:
    (Although, Fo usually follows the guide line that people in the waste are not radiated. Only during the fallout itself, or in special places (Glow) do people pick up rads. Which brings up the question why the master needs “pure-strains”? Because they are not radiated but have all DNA damage regardless? (back to animals). Or because of “wild FEV” i.e. Lt's theory? Which is another can of worms.)
    Yes, it doesn't really make sense. But one major headache is that animals always turned out more intelligent (pre-war experiments (apes possibly not as much, but still), intelligent deathclaws, and even the master's experiments), while human beings don't (save a few exceptions like the master, but normally they are “lucky” when they keep their IQ intact). This odd difference in outcomes is somewhat blatant and quite a thorn in the whole thing and there is no real answer for it.
    The option to say that FEV is pre-programmed would be an “out”. (Would also mean that pre-war experiements made human beings more intelligent (lol).)

    If you want I have screenshots of all the dialogue (8626 KB) (you can find all in the files ofc, but I keep this as a receipt that it does appear in-game, which makes it tier one material): http://www.filedropper.com/fo1screenshoots
    P.S. Some of these screenshots have massive “black button” issues but that, btw, appears to be fixed in Fixed 1.0.0/updated sfall (tested, i.e. I had a savegame that could trigger the black button reliably, and it doesn't anymore with 1.0.0).
     
  8. Oppen

    Oppen FIXT n°1 fan

    Dec 26, 2011
    Weren't all these positive claims about the virus actually made by the promoters of its research? They may have been heavily biased, if not outright 'embellishing' the truth about it. I think it'd make sense. Also, post-war results are pretty much great bio-weapons. That's enough motivation for the military and the scientists to lie to their superiors about how beneficial to the subjects the virus actually was, considering they were at war. Point being, I agree that it would fit Fallout's universe for the virus to almost never yield 'glowing' results.
    I agree on the reaction of Maxson, too. If the subjects actually felt like they were given a gift, they would probably have tried to dissuade the mutiny, too. They were likely in no condition to attempt that.
    However, conditions under pre-war research may have been much more controlled, so the results may have been better and more predictable.

    In the case of deathclaws, it sounds a bit farfetched, because they are created (at least partly) as a consequence of being irradiated, and this damage is most likely hereditary. However, using DNA extracted from the original species, a tailored FEV should probably be able to fix it (IIRC, the original motivation for creating FEV was to fix damaged DNA).
    I believe there was in-game material mentioning raccoons, those were most likely unscathed.

    Big suspension of disbelief here, but maybe there's a subtle, base level of radiation, not enough to trigger symptoms (what is shown as rads in the interface) but enough to contaminate the DNA regarding FEV reactions. Still, animals are a strange case. Even when considering "wild FEV", they are exposed, and there's only so many species the FEV dispersed on the atmosphere is tailored to (assuming several strains here), so it's probably even worse for certain species. Maybe some of the creatures we don't see went extinct due to this.

    Huge speculation here, but maybe the issue is actually that the brain grows too much for humans? That may cause brain damage if it doesn't fit the skull, and IIRC (CITATION NEEDED!) the outer layers are the most related to intellect.

    Thanks, I may check those out later!
     
  9. Muttie

    Muttie It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Oct 9, 2017
  10. Yulaw9460

    Yulaw9460 First time out of the vault

    Jun 7, 2018
    Great news. I keep getting crashes and an error message, whenever I enter the Nuka Cola encounter. That would be nice to get working.
     
  11. Muttie

    Muttie It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Oct 9, 2017
    There is a strange thing with 1.0.0.
    When I start combat on my own I can't move (move cursor features a X). Until I hit a shot or enter the next turn.
    When a critter starts combat I can move fine.
    This is not the case in vanilla Fo1 (1.35 with sfall 1.8).
    Can't remember if this was the case in Fixt 0.81 or not. However, it appears to be Fixt specific (i.e. not sfall or vanilla). So I'm not sure if this is a feature of Fixt or a new bug?
     
  12. NovaRain

    NovaRain Casual Modder Modder

    Mar 10, 2007
    Try disable FakeCombatFix option in ddraw.ini.
     
  13. Muttie

    Muttie It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Oct 9, 2017
    OK, that did it. So it's a feature after all. :)
     
  14. burn

    burn Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
    Modder

    Apr 22, 2012
    @Sduibek what's up with stale github? Please publish the sources and current language files.