Project Van Buren [Unity3D]

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by Hardboiled Wanderer, Jul 10, 2018.

Tags:
  1. LuciusCorneliusSulla

    LuciusCorneliusSulla First time out of the vault

    Sep 23, 2018
    One of my friends said that van buren planned to let you choose between real time and turn based combat. Any plans to attempt that?

    Will you accept donations at a later stage?

    Are you willing to accept help from people at this point? (Voice work, writing, modeling)
     
  2. Hardboiled Wanderer

    Hardboiled Wanderer I'm just here for the guzzoline...

    Apr 24, 2016
    I am actually prototyping combat system now. Its pretty basic now but it is moving forward at good pace.
    Yes, you will be able to choose combat type. I cant tell you all the details right now, like whether your choise will be changable during combat or not, as it will require some prototype testing first.
    About donations - my friend suggested me an idea of kickstarter campaign once a demo is finished. We would like to release the game for free, as otherwise it would naturally mean breaking the ownership law. Chris Avellone once said (regarding fan made Fallouts) that as long as it doesnt have a pricetag on it, it SHOULD be ok with trademark and IP law.
    So such kickstarter campaign will be rather smaller, just to fund assets and systems I need, or those I have no rights to use as I torrented them (I spent around 150€ so far, but naturally, I cant buy everything, Im not a billionaire alright? :D). Only problem I see is that such kickstarter campaign may be considered as profit from someone elses IP, even though I dont plan to profit from it, but you know, my word means nothing to the lawyers. This will require further research on the topic.

    Besides, more then donations, I am in desperate need of an 3D artist.
    Voice acting is topic for itself. While I can imagine getting enought volunteers for it, I cant quite imagine how and where it would be recorded. Not everyone has at least mediocore microphone at home you know :D I would welcome your thoughts though.
     
  3. sesom

    sesom First time out of the vault

    Nov 17, 2008
    From a fellow mod and gamedeveloper I suggest to be very careful here. It doesn't matter if you give away the mod/game for free as soon as you make a income with it. One recent example:



    The trademarks for "Van Buren" as computer game are interestingly at InXile now. All Fallout related stuff is by Bethesda. Think about Project V13 how Bethesda did react to a game using Fallout imaginary and names. Also did Bethesda sue people who made Kickstarter projects for their mods. It is a income.

    But there is a way around it. Don't make crowdfunding for the game keep that all completely free and as fan work. Make the crowdfunding about documenting how this game is made. For example a Patreon for a youtube series about making the game Kickstarter, Indiegogo are to risky in this case. Here people pay/donate for the youtube series not for the game.

    In the end still the holder of the rights (InXile or Bethesda) can shut you down anytime. There is no way around it for you as long as you make it a Fallout game with using lore/imaginary/factions/... from Van Buren. It's a sad truth according the copyright laws. Chris sadly has no say at all in that.

    Better to think about that now before you are at the end stage and someone shuts you down.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  4. Hardboiled Wanderer

    Hardboiled Wanderer I'm just here for the guzzoline...

    Apr 24, 2016
    About Project V13, there were two projects of this name, and none of them got cancelled due to trademark issues, at least not directly. First Project V13 was part of the Interplay's deal with Bethesda, but as it was not developed in agreed time (three years I think), so by long court process, it was finally cancelled and whole IP with all rights were claimed by Bethesda. Second Project V13, which was only in concepting state under ressurected BIS (Chris Taylor was involved I think), got cancelled as it did not raised enough funds for production of the demo (pretty... odd tactics, demanding crowfunding and having nothing in hands), and as far as I know, Bethesda did not interrupt anything.

    Anyway, when speaking about using of titles or IP part of either Fallout or Van Buren (whose trademark is under InXile since 2015, I know that, but as Brian Fargo stated, they are not about to use it, it was just reserved), law is explicit about this - if you are not generating income, no trademark law applies on you, plain and simple. If they did not halt projects like FOnline or Fallout Ressurection, why would they halt my project? And it does not really matter where they got their resources (these particular two did not use any funds afaik, just their hard work, but they could have done that), since they did not profit from it, no one cared.

    You know, I was thinking about kickstarter, as it is, sort of, nice and official way of crowdfunding, and people feel more confident when funding there rather than giving money to some random forum/youtube stranger.
    But, since there is no way around copyright law (because as both you and I said, crowdfunding would be most probably considered as making profit), there are only two options: not going around, but through - directly asking for permission from both related subjects, which is easy to do but negative outcome is more than predictable, OR drop any crowfunding ideas and beg someone to death for funding me few pounds on assets I need :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  5. MrBananaCoffee

    MrBananaCoffee First time out of the vault

    Oct 20, 2018
    Honestly, the only real condition that I have it for you to keep it hex-based. None of that square-grid stuff that doesn't make sense in isometric views.
     
  6. sesom

    sesom First time out of the vault

    Nov 17, 2008
    I mentioned V13 because at one time in this pretty long ongoing legal fight Interplay had the right to make a Fallout named MMO but couldn't use any elements of a Fallout game (Vault, Vaultsuites, ...). FOnline and Fallout Ressurection are simply save because they go under the radar and aren't as popular. Pretty much the same with TTW (which I helped on too but there are also other reasons why TTW is safe).

    It's a bad situation I know. Not only but also for the same reasons I stopped working on Fallout The Story (FO1 remade in the NV engine) and started to work on my own game and yes I was inspired (but now complety independent in story, background, system, ...) from Van Buren.
     
  7. Hardboiled Wanderer

    Hardboiled Wanderer I'm just here for the guzzoline...

    Apr 24, 2016
    You worked on The Story mod? And you just worked on it or are you, by any chance, a Slovak guy who started it? :D I have been trying to contact him for some nice assets they created
     
  8. sesom

    sesom First time out of the vault

    Nov 17, 2008
    Nope I am not Arcoolka. I am the second guy who came directly after he started it. I use sesom as nick for all my Fallout related stuff. Reusing the assets from Fallout The Story won't work out for you because most of them are using original NV textures. There are very few which are 100% original made (I should know they are from myself :) ). Also are many of them also contributions to the mod (Sandcrete architecture in Shady Sands for example is from Trickyvein uses Bethesda textures too) and all of them are not PBR ready.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  9. Hardboiled Wanderer

    Hardboiled Wanderer I'm just here for the guzzoline...

    Apr 24, 2016
    I am using a few NV assets, even some FO4 ones, and I have Shady Sands and Hub models from those contributors you mentioned, but those are not much of an use to me for, not for Van Buren at least. I was actually interested in one particular model:



    I would change a few things but it is a nice piece of art I could use in several places.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  10. sesom

    sesom First time out of the vault

    Nov 17, 2008
    Yeah that was done by me. The building is based on the Paradise Falls architecture from Fallout 3.

    Sorry to say you are in a big very big legal minefield here. I can't see any way how you legally can release a game that uses assets from different Bethesda games. You aren't even allowed to use FO3 assets in FO4 or FO3 ones in NV as free mod.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  11. Hardboiled Wanderer

    Hardboiled Wanderer I'm just here for the guzzoline...

    Apr 24, 2016
    Well, those assets I use are mostly placeholders, which means, they will be replaced once a proped art work is done. Model above is your work, even thought it is based on some FO3 meshes. I would really want to see how Bethesda would prove you or me that some meshes are theirs, as in my case, they have different format, different material set, textures and/or changed UV mapping.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  12. sesom

    sesom First time out of the vault

    Nov 17, 2008
    Format, material set are completly irrelevant as you know for yourself. Yeah you could try to argue textures and UV mapping but sorry the one with the most money wins this in court and that's not me and propably not you.
     
  13. Hardboiled Wanderer

    Hardboiled Wanderer I'm just here for the guzzoline...

    Apr 24, 2016
    Alright so lets look at it from a different angle. FOnline and Fallout Ressurection uses almost all of the FO1/2 assets (I know there are just sprites, but even those are regular assets) , which are under Bethesda's ownership just as games themselves. I see no protests from Bethesda, just as I wouldn't in this case. I think they have better business to do than fight court battles with unimportant existance like myself over some meshes from 10 years old game they cant even prove as trully theirs, because - again - I open that mesh in Blender, move a few vertices and presto - it is my work now.
     
  14. sesom

    sesom First time out of the vault

    Nov 17, 2008
    We already talked about FOnline and Resurrection. Bethesda doesn't care because they don't make any big fuzz (publicity), no money, are old games they didn't make themself and they are also unsure how the legal situation is as Interplay 'lost' any documentation and contracts.

    They care about the stuff they made or bought them self for their own games, simply because they have to. They often contracted the work and have to protect it. I am in no way a friend of Bethesda (anymore btw. since FO4 & FO76 this is gone) and also I personally don't trust them enough to release something myself with their stuff in it in a game that it isn't from them.

    edit: About moving a few vertices and it's yours. Yes some people thought that too using old COD assets and had to face a lawsuit.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  15. Ediros

    Ediros Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Feb 4, 2016
    Bethesda went to court over a game that used SCROLLS IN THEIR TITLE. You can't expect they won't do the same. Fuck, they straight out rip off mods like Autumn Leaves in Fart Harbour for instance. This is very tricky ground, Van Buren on facebook is using Fallout 1/2 engine and most of it's assets. However, it's low profile anyway. Same thing with TTW. Mods like New California and Frontier use custom assets and those they can't sue the same way. Plus it would only hurt them. Even massive redesings for Oblivion and Skyrim use the same engine. One one you could it is paypal donation system, but it's still not that safe. It's a whole can of worms, full of legal bullcrap ready to be opened. Bugthesda also shut down Fallout 3 in 4 mod, after they asked for permission, so, you know.
     
  16. sesom

    sesom First time out of the vault

    Nov 17, 2008
    If you make a mod for any Bugthesda game you agree that they can use it all. TTW is on a dangerous ground but gets away with it because no assets are released with TTW. The player has to have both games FO3 & NV and creates the needed changes for NV himself. New California and Frontier are 100% safe (except that BGS 'borrows' ideas from them as they love todo).

    About FO3 in FO4. No Bethesda didn't shut them down. They asked Bugthesda directly if they can use the audio files from FO3 in their mod. They got the only answer that Bugthesda can give: NO! (voice actors especially the famous ones are contracted for one game and one game only). They decided then to end the project (they had other reasons too, which I got told privately so I won't mention these, which had nothing to do with Bugthesda). They could have continued with self made voice acting or going the TTW route (without asking Bugthesda for the best) but decided against it.

    Please all don't get me wrong here I want this project to succeed but I don't see a big chance it succeeding with the use of Bugthesda assets.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  17. Hardboiled Wanderer

    Hardboiled Wanderer I'm just here for the guzzoline...

    Apr 24, 2016
    Give me 3D modeller, and I will replace all those few meshes I use now, not a big deal.

    Regarding FO3 in FO4, Bethesda did not say NO to them. It is known that Bethesda even supported this mod, but after first gameplay came out, Bethesda contacted mod creators that their lawyers found out that voice acting files are not under Bethesda's ownership, and instead, rights for them are under studio agency that recorded them, so this might have caused them troubles and Bethesda could not do anything to help. Fallout 4: New Vegas mod claimed that they will not use original voice act, so they avoided all this.

    These two mod are another prove that Bethesda does not really care about using assets in fan made things, they actually never did.
     
  18. sesom

    sesom First time out of the vault

    Nov 17, 2008
    Great to hear that it isn't much to replace.

    I talked with one of the team members of the FO3 to FO4 mod and got a different story told. (They asked Bethesda directly if they can use the FO3 voice files). I disagree with you that Bethesda doesn't have the full rights (for FO3 only clearly) for the voice acting in FO3. They wouldn't be allowed to sell FO3 otherwise.

    I know as a mod developer Bethesda pretty well. I also was featured on their old Blog one time for a mod I participated to make (FO3 the proposal, I did the quest and audio implementation). I am around for a long time (but not here).

    The rule not to use asset from different games (even other Bethesda games) is strict, very strict (and it makes sense as they use contracted work too).

    Does Bethesda know what's happening? Sure they know. It's no coincidence that Power Armor as a vehicle showed up in FO4 as the whole concept about it was developed in the TTW forum (Panzer). But they don't interfere directly if they are not directly asked or can get a legal problem for them self. The problem for your project is simply that it needs money and for money you need publicity. That's why it's important that you stay on the safe side imho.

    Btw. NV in FO4 doesn't use any NV assets. At least what I have seen and what they say.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  19. Hardboiled Wanderer

    Hardboiled Wanderer I'm just here for the guzzoline...

    Apr 24, 2016
    Version I described above comes from official Capital Wasteland mod Facebook/twitter post from right after cancellation, but I believe there may be something more to it.

    I dont quite agree about money. I dont "need" money. Everything can be done without them, it will just take longer period of time, thats all. They would help, of course, but they are not needed for completion. I have done so much without them, so if necessary, I will continue without them.
     
  20. LuciusCorneliusSulla

    LuciusCorneliusSulla First time out of the vault

    Sep 23, 2018
    I agree that you should avoid reusing assets like the plague. I had a few acquaintances ask if you needed help but whether or not they were sincere is unknown.

    Do you need writers, artists or animators?