Why does Arroyo use tribal motifs and rituals if it was founded by vault dwellers?

haeerhum

First time out of the vault
It's one thing to have simpler clothing or shelter or a hunter-gatherer economy, but Arroyo goes all-out. Temple of trials, worship of the vault, shamans, spiritual quests. And these aren't a few individuals, they're apparently settlement leaders, and it's entrenched in the culture. It's a complete restructure of values. I didn't get the sense that that's the type of society people raised in a vault would want by default, rather than a Vault City sort of place. I've just been imagining that FO1 protag studied comparative religion or something and was enamored with the idea of a simpler spiritual pastoral society, and was charismatic enough to somehow convert everyone to their way. Is there any explanation for this in-game that I haven't gotten to?
 
I always assumed some Native American tribes survived the war, spreading those types of cultural beliefs around. Resorting to simple weapons due to isolation, ignorance due to no education, primitive worship of simple items - these things combine to create such a culture I would think. Plus the designers watched a lot of Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome.
 
I always assumed some Native American tribes survived the war, spreading those types of cultural beliefs around. Resorting to simple weapons due to isolation, ignorance due to no education, primitive worship of simple items - these things combine to create such a culture I would think. Plus the designers watched a lot of Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome.

Additionally, it's likely a metaphor that worked for people who lived in vaults since they likely grew up exposed to fiction that showed Native American tribes or ciphers for such living a "simpler life" that was "in tune with nature." This was a much more appropriate metaphor for folks after they left the vault, since their new lives gave up quite a bit in the way of luxuries and amenities.

So even people who didn't grow up in NA cultures were probably amenable to those ideas offering a better way to live now that you can't go to the store and buy stuff.
 
It's also likely that living as a native american was seen as a very efficient way to coexist with the land considering they didn't have "civilized" amenities anymore - and as Cabbage said any survivors were likely aware of that culture through media.

Between 2165 and 2241, I can imagine without proper archives or information storage that word of mouth information/education would have decayed between generations dying.
 
Also, it wasn't *just* the vault's people AFAIR, so it really is a mixed bag.
Anyway, while I did like it, I don't think it makes too much sense. It could be possible, but IMO unlikely, that they would evolve into a religious-like tribe.
The other aspects of tribalism (read, the close, tiny groups, the sense of community without too much in the way of private property, the common symbols), though, I think are pretty much to be expected.
 
To those who haven't read it, I strongly recommend the novel Earth Abides by George R. Stewart for a plausible account of how a group of post-apocalyptic survivors could develop a culture of tribal mysticism in a couple of generations. In a situation like the V13 exiles found themselves in, it can be difficult to keep a knowledge base and culture intact, especially given their extreme isolation.

Culture's a complicated thing-- so much of it is passed down, but there's also a heavy organic influence in play. Without the proper framework and resources to fully educate the next generation, and with day-to-day survival being the pressing concern on everyone's mind, I can see the more advanced nuances being lost in favor of knowledge and practices more relevant to the tribe's situation. As the younger generation began to outnumber their educated forebears, I can also see superstition starting to gain a growing foothold in their worldview, especially if they didn't bring any strong traditions from the vault. They definitely overplayed the effect with Arroyo, though-- it could logically have reached the state we saw it in in the 80 years elapsed since Fallout 1, but it would have been a real stretch. The Vault Dweller and his ilk would have to have made some very questionable decisions or had extremely poor luck.
 
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That's pretty much what I meant as it being unlikely, actually. Not that it is unlikely to happen *eventually*, but even the second gen didn't completely die out yet, since the head of the tribe by the time of Fallout 2 is one of the founders' (the Vault Dweller) daughter.
 
They definitely overplayed the effect with Arroyo, though-- it could logically have reached the state we saw it in in the 80 years elapsed since Fallout 1, but it would have been a real stretch.
I think people put too much thought into Arroyo becoming so primitive when it was founded by wastelanders and vault dwellers, chiefly because of the latter group. ESPECIALLY when you consider that the Vault Dweller's daughter, the Arroyo Elder (as of FO2), was ONLY 54 years old and yet looked like THIS! That's one HELL of a sunburn! That, the ghosts, and the visions were the only really unbelievable parts of FO2, the former and latter being associated with Arroyo or its denizens.

Considering how little it takes for languages to be lost on people without practice, knowledge to fade with time, generations to decline without a consistently improving standard of living, human nature for superstition, and many other factors, I found nothing unbelievable about the state of Arroyo by the time of the game it's in. More unbelievable is the amount of characters who survived 80 years later, or just how different the Chosen One could have turned out, compared to his mother, or cousin, or Aunt, or the many other villagers. A group turning tribal, superstitious, and primitive is one thing. But a group doing so, yet one of their own being sophisticated and eloquent to a modern standard and well aware of technology, and now you're entering seriously fuzzy territory.

But hey, at least the writers knew what they were doing, and the Chosen One has plenty of opportunities to make commentary about his home and its culture.
"Why, I hear that tribals eat their damn dead."
"How else could we grok their essence?"
XD
 
The reversion from science and technology to metaphor and superstition reminds me of Arthur C Clarke's dictum, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

There is little technology in the village, so it would be hard to show any offspring how tech works. Even things that function might not have power (MF cells etc.). At some point, the former vault dwellers would have difficulty teaching anyone younger than themselves anything useful about high technology. Concepts like crop rotation, how to build irrigation systems, and the like would be easily demonstrated and relevant to daily life, as well as to survival. I think the unlearning of technology would begin as soon as the vault dwellers tried to teach it to others. Even the vault dwellers would have little use for much of that knowledge.

As for metaphors as knowledge, if I have to explain something very technical about computers to my "machine age" parents/bosses/whatever, I often lapse into metaphor if it's easier to convey and gives whatever info I think they will retain. Compare the intros from Fallout and Fallout 2. The first could be a history lesson taught to children in the Vault, while 2's intro is all metaphor. If you didn't have working computers any more, metaphorical descriptions of how they once worked would be all most people would understand or remember.

Superstition can have a useful place in a primitive society. Stories about talking animals passed down in Native American culture often convey pretty accurately the behaviors of those animals (coyotes are unpredictable, wolves are agressive and hungry, etc.). The same can be true for descriptions of geographic features, plants, weather, and more.

As for the Hakunin telepathy/dreams or the silly ghost story and locket quest, Fallout 2 could have done without that.

(I assume I wasn't the only one who slaughtered the Vancepires in Fallout 3. I just had this sudden fourth-wall-breaking hallucination that the Vancepires were the writers who were subjecting me to this crap. 3 frag grenades, a hail of 10mm rounds, and maybe 2 more frag grenades later, it was mostly over. Then I used some more 10mm to separate all the heads and limbs from the corpses. Not out of superstition, but because I couldn't kill them enough to kill the idea.)
 
TBH, the existence of psychic powers in Fallout 2 doesn't surprise me that much, considering there was psychers created with the help of FEV in Fallout 1, and the explosion of the Mariposa Base could have sent some FEV into the air and have unpredictable effects on the population in low doses. As long as there are few of them, I think they are believable. Now, if you create a whole town of psychers, you better make the explanation yourself instead of making the fans do your homework. But one or even two in the whole game, after 80 years of possible interaction with airborne FEV, believable.
 
As for the Hakunin telepathy/dreams or the silly ghost story and locket quest, Fallout 2 could have done without that.
My personal explanation for the dreams and ghosts were hallucinations. The Chosen One specifically alludes to Hakunin having left an indelible mark on the youth through the use of hallucinogenic herbs, so while convenient that the Chosen One would receive these visions (specifically the one when the Enclave attacks), the knowledge that his village is proceeding closer to its demise the longer he takes is not a secret to him, so the visions could have progressed simply as a result of his subconscious reminding him to hurry the hell up.

The ghosts are a little less likely the result of hallucinations (playing with the RP, there is a SECOND ghost as part of the restored content, so it serves to reinforce the idea that there were no singular anomalous encounters in the game, as originally planned), but they still can be somewhat explained by the fact that, however sophisticated and intelligent, the Chosen One is still a tribal, raised on tribal superstitious culture. Some of his dialog clearly reinforces that despite his (potentially unusually worldly) knowledge, he is still subject to flights of fancy... or he's just being a smartass. But still, the former provides a potential explanation for why hearing ghost stories might cause them to think they've seen a real ghost, thus the quest. However, the events progress in the opposite direction, in the actual game. Rather than hearing about the ghost and eventually seeing her in the middle of the night, you have to see the ghost then ask Mom and other characters about it. (In the RP, the second ghost progression is reversed, depending on the time of day you interact with various characters. You can hear about the ghost that spooks the shaman, then afterward see it for yourself. Again, possibly the result of the Chosen One himself getting spooked.)

If all instances of ghosts had the prerequisites for "unlocking" seeing the actual ghosts were first met by hearing about it, I think it would work much better in the setting of the game, cause then superstition and scaring yourself into believing you saw what you believe you saw is an easy connection to make. *COUGH* Corrections for RP 2.3.4 maybe? =D *COUGH*

Oppen also offers a fairly acceptible explanation to the supernatural elements of the game:
TBH, the existence of psychic powers in Fallout 2 doesn't surprise me that much, considering there was psychers created with the help of FEV in Fallout 1, and the explosion of the Mariposa Base could have sent some FEV into the air and have unpredictable effects on the population in low doses. As long as there are few of them, I think they are believable. Now, if you create a whole town of psychers, you better make the explanation yourself instead of making the fans do your homework. But one or even two in the whole game, after 80 years of possible interaction with airborne FEV, believable.

But, remember, my original point was, REGARDLESS of how unbelievable the ghosts or visions may have been in FO2's setting, THEY were the more unbelievable aspects of the tribal-related items. Much more so than Arroyo's regressive and superstitious state. As Vault Maker EXCELLENTLY explained, it's really easy to reach that point, and the logical causes for some of those changes make perfect sense.

So, all in all, despite many fans' complaints about FO2 breaking away from the series' science fiction roots and delving into absurdity and fantasy and clashing with the original's aesthetics- whilst an understandable complaint, and their reasons for feeling as such it easy to see -it can still be noted that the setting still fits into the established themes of the original equally well!
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Except for Chuck Stogers, anyway.
 
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(playing with the RP, there is a SECOND ghost as part of the restored content, so it serves to reinforce the idea that there were no singular anomalous encounters in the game, as originally planned)

I haven't played new versions of the RP in a while, would you care to tell me a bit more about this?
 
I'm pretty sure it's the same as older version of the RP. It's all just stuff from the Primitive Tribe (now renamed Umbra Tribe (which I didn't vote on, personally)). You get to Sulik's home village, the shaman is too scared to be of any help to you, and it turns out some woman out in the wilderness was killed and her ghost wanders nearby and you have to find out how she died, tell the shaman, then you help him perform a rite to help her spirit move on. In older versions her dialog made it sound like she was killed by an Enclave trooper (and they're close enough to Navarro, it's a possibility), but the latest version rewrote it to be a local dispute. Still, it's just one ghost.

I was saying that it's a 2nd ghost, besides Anna Winslow in the Den, so Anna's ghost is no longer this singular anomaly. Now there's two.
 
I personally really like the Umbra Tribe, because it's one of the few places in the game where you can act like an absolute jerkass (the other being New Reno) and still get loads of karma, finish all the quests and end up Idolized. Insulting that shaman in every way possible is part of my usual routine.

I also found it very strange that the tribals in FO2 are so... tribal. The erudite slaves you talk to in Metzger's pen and the mentioning of other tribes as savages also corroborates this stereotype. I do think it fits well with the 50s comic book feel that Fallout 1 established. Stories about Mighty Whitey vs. Noble Savage were a lot more common back then, case in point the Tintin comics.
 
By the way, why exactly was the name Umbra-Tribe chosen again? Does it have any ties to the location or is it just as random as it sounds?
 
It was voted on here in NMA. I voted for something else... The vote having taken place years ago, I don't quite remember what our choices were. Only that Umbra Tribe was my LEAST favorite... -_-
 
Perhaps the villagers of Arroyo also mine coal and iron ore so they can forge steel tips for their wooden spears, (when they're not using flint of course).
 
They could probably just scavenge iron from pre war areas and use charcoal to forge steel.
 
The Vault Dweller was an anarcho-primitivist, which explains why he was able to adapt to the wasteland so rapidly after living a cushy Vault life.

ESPECIALLY when you consider that the Vault Dweller's daughter, the Arroyo Elder (as of FO2), was ONLY 54 years old and yet looked like THIS!

That's not a stretch at all, really. Have you ever seen poor Russians that lived in the USSR? They may be 25 but they look twice that age. If a woman who has to scavenge the wastes with her scant tribe to survive, basically like a feral animal, ends up looking like a withered and scarred husk by 54 I'm not the least bit surprised. That, combined with any number of wasteland hazards, including the magical mutating radiation, could cover the rest of the bases as far as appearance goes. Plus talking heads have always been more artistic/stylish than strictly realistic.

My personal explanation for the dreams and ghosts were hallucinations. The Chosen One specifically alludes to Hakunin having left an indelible mark on the youth through the use of hallucinogenic herbs, so while convenient that the Chosen One would receive these visions (specifically the one when the Enclave attacks), the knowledge that his village is proceeding closer to its demise the longer he takes is not a secret to him, so the visions could have progressed simply as a result of his subconscious reminding him to hurry the hell up.

Makes me wonder why y'all don't go to such lengths to cover Beth's shit writing ;)



















(only joking of course)
 
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