Was the Elder Scrolls ever really an RPG?

TheHouseAlwaysWins

TheHouseAlwaysWins

Look, Ma! Two Heads!
I mean when you get down to it, every Bethesda game uses the same formula for the majority of quests. The world is more reactive and the magic system is more fun in Morrowind and Daggerfall but it's not an RPG in the same way Fallout is.
 
It was an RPG in the similiar sense as later (SirTech’s) Wizardries and Might and Magic games were.

Mechanics matter.

Nowadays (or, since 2006) it’s leaning more towards action adventure/simulation like Fallout (since 2008).
 
It was a cRPG the same way the earliest editions of D&D were PnPRPGs. They're less story-focused and more mechanically focused.
 
Arena and Daggerfall were good action RPGs (in their RPG systems, Arena for example had horrible controls that make me not want to play it), Morrowind was a good action RPG in it's system but already a bot watered down, it still had enough stuff to be considered good (but not as good as Arena and Daggerfall in it's RPG-ness), Oblivion was already much more watered down in it's RPG system but it was still enough to be considered an Action RPG, Skyrim is borderline not a RPG, it has a very faint RPG underlay but it doesn't have enough of it to be considered a RPG. Like Kohno says, it is more of a action adventure type of game.

Basically Bethesda's TES and Fallout games have been morphing into what TES Adventures was supposed to be (it is worth to note here that The Elder Scrolls Adventures: Redguard was the baby project of Todd Howard), but with an open world and first person perspective.
 
Yes, they were. Essentially, Arena and Daggerfall were successors of earlier dungeon crawler games with a more freely accessible overworld and more engaging storylines, similar to the Ultima games until then.
Morrowind was still pretty similar, but focused less on dungeon crawling and had more involved quests.
With Oblivion they started to focus more on action, culminating in Skyrim, which, weirdly enough, goes back to the early games with lots of randomized dungeon crawling.
 
Oblivion was my first Bethesda title... and I soon discovered that I liked their games in the reverse order of their release. Bethesda seems to be refining a formula for a money-funnel, and RPG aspects are apparently vestigial baggage to them; as is the player character itself. At one time I think they were RPGs, but now (and ever after) they are a different animal entirely. Bethesda makes 'stream-of-consciousness empowerment fantasy'; franken-shooters —on the quick path to just being shooters.
 
Hassknecht said:
Yes, they were. Essentially, Arena and Daggerfall were successors of earlier dungeon crawler games with a more freely accessible overworld and more engaging storylines, similar to the Ultima games until then.
Morrowind was still pretty similar, but focused less on dungeon crawling and had more involved quests.
With Oblivion they started to focus more on action, culminating in Skyrim, which, weirdly enough, goes back to the early games with lots of randomized dungeon crawling.
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In layman's terms:

-Arena/Daggerfall were open-world Ultima Underworld games.

-Morrowind was like that, but more story-driven.

-Oblivion tried to appeal to a larger market.

-Skyrim is casual Ultima Underworld with an overworld.
 
Ben Soto said:
In layman's terms:

-Arena/Daggerfall were open-world Ultima Underworld games.

-Morrowind was like that, but more story-driven.

-Oblivion tried to appeal to a larger market.

-Skyrim is casual Ultima Underworld with an overworld.
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Pretty much. Although Morrowind wasn't much of a dungeon crawler anymore, as it had handcrafted dungeons and the quests were a lot more varied. The similarities are mostly in the mechanics and the dialogue. Morrowind was a proper RPG in most respects, but didn't yet implement the deeper dialogue system of other contemporary RPGs.
Oblivion finally implemented that, but cut back on the mechanical complexity.
With Skyrim they went full circle again, with the dialogue barely in effect anymore and a renewed focus on dungeon crawling.
Of Morrowind had a better dialogue system it would have been the perfect fantasy RPG. Well, the perfect first-person-real-time RPG.
 
Hassknecht said:
Pretty much. Although Morrowind wasn't much of a dungeon crawler anymore, as it had handcrafted dungeons and the quests were a lot more varied. The similarities are mostly in the mechanics and the dialogue. Morrowind was a proper RPG in most respects, but didn't yet implement the deeper dialogue system of other contemporary RPGs.
Oblivion finally implemented that, but cut back on the mechanical complexity.
With Skyrim they went full circle again, with the dialogue barely in effect anymore and a renewed focus on dungeon crawling.
Of Morrowind had a better dialogue system it would have been the perfect fantasy RPG. Well, the perfect first-person-real-time RPG.
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Sadly, Morrowind's dialogue system not only sucked, but it basically killed the story for me.
 
TheHouseAlwaysWins said:
I mean when you get down to it, every Bethesda game uses the same formula for the majority of quests. The world is more reactive and the magic system is more fun in Morrowind and Daggerfall but it's not an RPG in the same way Fallout is.
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What? First four TES definitely RPGs, it's just that Daggerfall is more refined and clear (I know, strange since the actual games is like 10% finished) unlike Morrowind and Oblivion passing themselves as TES: Adventures+stats homunculus.

I guess the truth about modern bethesda ways is actually in a middle of all out theories and arguments. Ever since Oblivion, bethesda cuts down on actual work putted into their games past landscape until they actually reinvent Buggerfall, a game that writes itself with all this bullshit "radiant" mechanisms instead of actual handcrafted quests, level deisgn, you name it. Why? Why bother, modders will redo everything to their taste anyway while Zenimax also makes money on mods because of the growing concept of games as services since marketing budget grows too big and capitalism only works on expansion, just like empires, amirite?

But Fallout 4 shows the opposite so far, at least with quest mods. So there's hope I guess.

Todd Howard's penis stroking on blatant player ego rewarding and instant graitification doesn't really help either.
 
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Ben Soto said:
Sadly, Morrowind's dialogue system not only sucked, but it basically killed the story for me.
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Same. Everything but the most important aspect is spot on. The way the dialogue works coupled with every npc having a unique name and a severe lack of unique dialogue at times makes the world feel more static and dead than even skyrims or hell even fallout 3.
 
0wing said:
What? First four TES definitely RPGs, it's just that Daggerfall is more refined and clear (I know, strange since the actual games is like 10% finished) unlike Morrowind and Oblivion passing themselves as TES: Adventures+stats homunculus.
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I disagree with that assessment, at least of Morrowind. The mechanics were streamlined a little bit, but not so much that it lost any of its RPG credibility. It cut down on some obscure skills like all the languages and streamlined etiquette and streetwise and stuff. It remained complex where it counts.
Oblivion streamlined it more, and too much so, but Morrowind is absolutely not TES: Adventures+stats, and certainly no homunculus either.
 
Hassknecht said:
I disagree with that assessment, at least of Morrowind. The mechanics were streamlined a little bit, but not so much that it lost any of its RPG credibility. It cut down on some obscure skills like all the languages and streamlined etiquette and streetwise and stuff. It remained complex where it counts.
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Tell that to countless "why I can't swing swords for shit/shoot with a bow/cast a spell even these are my main skills" threads. You see, attributes along with advantages/disadvantages (and partly the optional "lifepath") were pretty important aspect of Elder Scrolls rpg system. Tying everything to skills just made the game less RPG-ey but more confusing since it wasn't planned from the get go, unlike in Deus Ex for example.

The strange level up interface in exchange for a character's list is... "It just works" and doesn't help much either.
 
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R.Graves said:
Same. Everything but the most important aspect is spot on. The way the dialogue works coupled with every npc having a unique name and a severe lack of unique dialogue at times makes the world feel more static and dead than even skyrims or hell even fallout 3.
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Not everything was spot on. The fact that I couldn't hit things five inches in front of my face for most of the early game really bugged me.

Although, for some odd reason, the exact same problem didn't bother me at all in Daggerfall... Weird.

0wing said:
Tell that to countless "why I can't swing swords for shit/shoot with a bow/cast a spell even these are my main skills" threads. You see, attributes along with advantages/disadvantages (and partly the optional "lifepath") were pretty important aspect of Elder Scrolls rpg system. I'll just leave this message.
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Yeah, see, I don't know why this was such an issue with Morrowind compared to Daggerfall. Maybe it had to do with the "real 3D" graphics?
 
0wing said:
Tell that to countless "why I can't swing swords for shit/shoot with a bow/cast a spell even these are my main skills" threads. You see, attributes along with advantages/disadvantages (and partly the optional "lifepath") were pretty important aspect of Elder Scrolls rpg system. I'll just leave this message.
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Sorry, I don't really get your point.
 
0wing said:
Yes you are. At least should now.
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No, I really don't. Remember that your English isn't always as clear as you might think.
""why I can't swing swords for shit/shoot with a bow/cast a spell even these are my main skills" threads"? If your skill is low, you're not going to hit shit.
Attributes were still in the game, and did the same as it did in Daggerfall.
Yes, advantages/disadvantages should have staid, as well as the character backstory. Although, given the story of Morrowind, that wasn't exactly possible.
 
I guess 0wing referred to people complaining about the dice-roll combat system that is of Morrowind's.
 
Hassknecht said:
Yeah, but it was even more dice-roll based in Daggerfall, so that can't be complaint.
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Yes, but it wasn't entierly skill-based, general fighting, the hit% could be improved by investing a pile of points into one stat, Speed. Plus, one could put Mastery: [favor. weapon] in advantages and clear the first dungeon from the get go while also moving normally instead of suffering first hour with a snail pace gameplay. Not to mention every fighit in Daggerfall is player's stat'n'skills versus opponent in contrast with Morrowind's player's stat'n'skill versus die. Not to mention using mouse for three different attack types is alot better and immersive than smashing movement keys.

Daggerfall has more refined actual gameplay, news at 11.

Yes there are attributes in Morrowind, but character creation ignores them entierly.
 
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