Rewriting Fallout: New Vegas

[Atomic Postman]

Heyo. Lots of threads on here on how people would rewrite Fallout 3 or Fallout 4, but not much on NV! Understandably obviously, but I feel it's a common sentiment that Vegas was underbaked in several areas, so I thought it'd be neat to spitball some ideas for tweaks,rewrites or developments to New Vegas. Feel free to contribute, obviously.

Caesar's Legion:

Effectively, I'd do exactly what this user said in 2011:

https://www.nma-fallout.com/threads/caesars-legion-reimagined.195216/

With that in mind, here are further tweaks: The "Priests" mentioned are predominantly women. Women are not viewed as inferior or second class citizens, but rather "different" by nature, all must commit themselves to serving Caesar, men are best suited to giving their lives in war, and women are more suited to producing strong warriors, raising them in our ways and healing them when they are sick.

Legion Locations:

Willow: A non-Legion town east of the Colorado. Well, as in non millitary. A large agricultural farming town reminiscient of a wealthier Shady Sands. The people and the town are a recent addition to the Colorado River, as the entire place was constructed with the purpose of providing food to support the Legion in the last few years. The farmers and townsfolk are actually from a place further east in Arizona, until the Legion swooped in, told them to move and packed up their town so they could come settle and serve the Legion here. In compensation they were provided housing and financial compensation for their harvest. They're basically left to their own devices outside of the occasional patrol arriving to collect crops, and the exception that chems are banned and the sale of alcohol severely restricted.

Talking to NPCs in Willow about what Arizona is or was like reveals the savagery of pre-Legion Arizona.
Petty feudal warlords, constant tribal conflict, chem-cartels and serious droughts/famines. Picture the most unstable areas and periods of contemporary African history with a Mad Max flair. One NPC may even tell an emotive story about living under the thumb of tribal raiders that would make the Fiends blush, watching her parents raped and mutilated in front of her eyes. When the Legion came, her town supported them in their campaign to crush and assimilate the tribe almost unconditionally. Their issues of famine and drought were alleviated as the Legion directed controlled supply lines to the frontline. In helping the Legion, they became safe and satiated. Where before, it seemed Arizona was only going to degenerate and become more primitive with time, many non-Legion areas of Arizona are now actually prospering and building towards something, rather than whittling away and trying to simply delay the inevitable.

This would I feel whilst not entirely justifying the Legion, would show the context to which they were a stabilizing force in the East. It would raise questions as to while the Legion may have been neccessary in Arizona, does the Mojave and California require this kind of regime? What happened to the towns that suffered from famine/drought that weren't on the frontline, were they forgotten? Did the Legion support them?

There would be a trading post in the town, ran by a trading company out of eastern Arizona. They'd be one of the wealthiest merchants in the game in terms of stock. The primary merchant would comment to the player about being excited to settle grounds out west.


Elephant Hill: A former Mojave tribe, its name forbidden, now a Legion indoctrination camp. Here we see and learn the process of assimilation. The priestesses teaching and raising the children, the breaking down of their culture and the screening of prime Legion material. Here we'd learn how the Legion claims a tribe in brutal detail.

Mr. House:

There's honestly not a lot I'd alter about Mr. House (for instance, I wouldn't change his unrelenting position on the BoS), but I would just add more content to his storyline between what already currently exists.

The House Always Wins IV: I'd simply add Beyond The Beef as a mandatory House quest, with him requesting you settle a minor squabble with some embarassingly drama scene creating Brahmin Baron in the Ultra Luxe which has been pesteringly reported repeatedly by Ultra Luxe staff. You'd still have the element of House being blindsided by the cannibalism, and the ability to handle their contract breakage "as you see fit".

The House Always Wins VI: A subplot where Mr. House attempts to broker a deal or working relationship with Van Graffs and Crimson Caravan. Citing forecasted fears of potential economic combat with NCR, House wants even more cards up his sleeve. As a sign of good faith, both want help strengthening their position in the Mojave.

With the Van Graffs, their cutthroat approach to business and mutual animosity (but ultimate economic reliance) towards NCR makes them natural bedfellows, I feel. House would aim to secure them as a California trade partner absolutely independent of NCR, in return offering beneficial contract/free trade in the Vegas market and effectively being groomed as a "Fourth" family in the very long-term. The current generations of Van Graffs are stubbornly independent, but further down the line with a reliance on House, they'll come into the fold.

Similarly, Crimson Caravan chafes under NCR taxation and regulation, their desperation to branch out to unregulated places like Vegas and New Canaan shows that clear as day. With the right stimulation their interests could be wedged against NCR proper, further aligning them with profit rather than with country, and when it comes to profit Vegas will always come out as the strongest player.

For Crimson Caravan this would effectively manifest as completing You Can Depend On Me coming into it with the premise of cutting a deal between House and McLafferty (with the Gun Runner espionage as mandatory in this version)

For the Van Graffs, it would either be completion of Birds of a Feather and agreement to trade with House instead of the NCR, or it would be using Speech/Barter to get "real work" which would involve raiding/wiping out a Gun Runners caravan in order to secure a prototype ("unique") weapon+blueprints being shipped in from California. Then also assassinating a member of the New Reno Wright family who is in New Vegas out of pleasure and also business, in trading gold stolen from Redding to exchange with the Gun Runners to help the Wrights push the Van Graffs out of Reno. Assassinating the Wright and securing the stolen gold buried elsewhere would act as an alternative to Birds of a Feather.

Completion of Heartaches by the Number (either route) or aggroing either group causes this quest to fail and House to be outraged, implying he will dock your salary in future if this comes to bite Vegas in the ass.

 

[Jogre]

Interesting ideas, but I'd like to address a few points.

Petty feudal warlords, constant tribal conflict, chem-cartels and serious droughts/famines. Picture the most unstable areas and periods of contemporary African history with a Mad Max flair. One NPC may even tell an emotive story about living under the thumb of tribal raiders that would make the Fiends blush, watching her parents raped and mutilated in front of her eyes. When the Legion came, her town supported them in their campaign to crush and assimilate the tribe almost unconditionally. Their issues of famine and drought were alleviated as the Legion directed controlled supply lines to the frontline. In helping the Legion, they became safe and satiated. Where before, it seemed Arizona was only going to degenerate and become more primitive with time, many non-Legion areas of Arizona are now actually prospering and building towards something, rather than whittling away and trying to simply delay the inevitable.

To my mind the idea of rewriting Legion to add more moral ambiguity is a good idea, but this suggestion simply replaces Legion atrocities with pre-Legion atrocities in a way to make them more ambigous.

"Consistent hell-world Arizona with the most violent gangs imaginable and consistent famines and droughts" feels somewhat less subtle than previous Fallout games. I think one of the best things about 1, 2 and New Vegas is that for the most part, a lot of the dystopian elements of the setting are fairly grounded.

The Hub is ruled by a group of Plutocratic merchants who gain political power through violently maintaining control over vital resources needed for the city to live. The Regulators are effectively a militaristic dictatorship, but disguise that under the guise of a democratically elected Mayor, and use false premises to start wars with other Boneyard gangs.

The dystopian nature of the setting lies in the fact that the modes by which power is wielded is subtle but totalising.


I feel like in the case of Arizona, hellworld with constant droughts and non-stop petty gangs would be a bit too on the nose. Realistically I think it could be more subtle:

There was a semi-stable system of Feudal Warlords, but who's infighting caused the region to be consistently violent, or a small handful of city states, distant to the land they control, with the ability to stop the famines and droughts, but consistently using the resources to enrich themselves at the expense of their subjects. Hell: there's no reason these places can't have utilised slave labour to make settling the region easier, which would in turn make the Legions reliance on slavery less about them individually choosing it, but rather it being the culture and economic norm of the area of the world they came from. Really emphasise that Legion couldn't be any other way given the area of the world it developed in.

That way it's less of a "Sadistic raider gangs roam hell on earth" and more "Resource scarcity and lack of a stable local order has created power structures that are largely unstable for the vast majority of people." Maybe even make it an open question as to whether the Legion did a good thing: lots of people are happy with the peace and relative prosperity of being under the thumb of a nomadic Horde that controls most of the four states region, but some feel robbed of independence.

Elephant Hill: A former Mojave tribe, its name forbidden, now a Legion indoctrination camp. Here we see and learn the process of assimilation. The priestesses teaching and raising the children, the breaking down of their culture and the screening of prime Legion material. Here we'd learn how the Legion claims a tribe in brutal detail.

Gotta say, this is a fantastic idea.

The othering and exclusionary ideologies of the various Imperialistic powers trying to gain control of New Vegas is something that I feels goes over most people's heads, but is a consistent theme throughout the game, with Mr House effectively ghettoising entire cultures in Freeside purely for the sake of his project, the NCR effectively creating a settler state, and marginalising the people already living there, and Legion of course forcibly annexing entire cultures for it's own benefit.

I feel like this idea of genuinely showing the process by which people are othered and/or annexed in Legion would be a fantastic idea, that could be a jumping off point for a lot of wider discussions for the game.

This might just be my Philosophy graduate brain talking: but I would love to see discussions of how Othering is inherent to the ideology of all the main factions, and a very Frantz Fanon-esque discussion of the Existential consequences for people of the Mojave having to be governed by powers which see them as accessories to a wider project.

 

[Atomic Postman]

Interesting ideas, but I'd like to address a few points.


To my mind the idea of rewriting Legion to add more moral ambiguity is a good idea, but this suggestion simply replaces Legion atrocities with pre-Legion atrocities in a way to make them more ambigous.

"Consistent hell-world Arizona with the most violent gangs imaginable and consistent famines and droughts" feels somewhat less subtle than previous Fallout games. I think one of the best things about 1, 2 and New Vegas is that for the most part, a lot of the dystopian elements of the setting are fairly grounded.

The Hub is ruled by a group of Plutocratic merchants who gain political power through violently maintaining control over vital resources needed for the city to live. The Regulators are effectively a militaristic dictatorship, but disguise that under the guise of a democratically elected Mayor, and use false premises to start wars with other Boneyard gangs.

The dystopian nature of the setting lies in the fact that the modes by which power is wielded is subtle but totalising.

You're correct and your suggested idea is a great way of actually hammering it out in detail, as I was just giving vague gesturings to communicate the idea. The reason I was so hard on the Arizona being a shithole idea is that the way that Sawyer contextualized the Legion really clicked for me. They're not meant to be a totally morally grey faction like House or NCR, but representative of the real kinds of repugnant regimes that arise in certain environments of huge instability, and their strength lies in the stabilization they provide. Sawyer uses the example of Liberia, but the problem is that New California (pre-NCR) or the Mojave are far more unstable on paper than anywhere in real life Africa, and so to maintain the element that the success (or momentum, I guess) of the Legion is a result of their environment being particularly brutal/savage compared to that of NCR is quite a hard task considering what the NCR itself arose from. I exaggerated because I didn't want to come off as arguing that the Legion would have been justified in its practices in, say, Fallout 1 era California. Whilst they might never be totally justified, you at the very least want the audience to understand they're an unfortunate product of their environment rather than the conquest of a villainous empire.

The othering and exclusionary ideologies of the various Imperialistic powers trying to gain control of New Vegas is something that I feels goes over most people's heads, but is a consistent theme throughout the game, with Mr House effectively ghettoising entire cultures in Freeside purely for the sake of his project, the NCR effectively creating a settler state, and marginalising the people already living there, and Legion of course forcibly annexing entire cultures for it's own benefit.

I feel like this idea of genuinely showing the process by which people are othered and/or annexed in Legion would be a fantastic idea, that could be a jumping off point for a lot of wider discussions for the game.

This might just be my Philosophy graduate brain talking: but I would love to see discussions of how Othering is inherent to the ideology of all the main factions, and a very Frantz Fanon-esque discussion of the Existential consequences for people of the Mojave having to be governed by powers which see them as accessories to a wider project.

This is why I'm also disappointed by the barebones and vagueness of the Independent Vegas route. So many people, the vast majority, still think its "Mr. House but the Courier" or "King Courier forms his own state" rather than this strange form of anarchism where the Mojave peoples have true self-determination. Arcade is basically the only suggestion in the game that is what Wild Card results in.

As part of my rewrites, I'd also probably add an optional branch to Wild Card aside from the "Backup if you're a psycho" option where your Courier is some kind of Lawrence of Arabia figure (except without the British Empire part) rallying the peoples of the Mojave to reject their would-be foreign controllers, and make it more explicitly "anti-faction.". The focus would basically be that this ending is massively idealistic and not at all pragmatic, a gamble in the true sense. This is basically what it already is, but it is nowhere clear enough.

 

[Jogre]

Here's a soft rewrite I think'd be quite interesting, and in an area that doesn't get discussed much: Black Mountain.

Black Mountain is largely used in the same way Mariposa is used in Fallout 2, giving an excuse for a "dungeon" of hostile Supermutants.

Here's the thing though: when I clear out Mariposa in Fallout 2, I'm always questioning whether or not I'm doing the right thing. The Second Gen Supermutants are literally former slave miners, used by the Enclave to mine, but their superhuman abilities came in handy in overthrowing their former masters. Whenever I clear Mariposa in Fallout 2, I kinda question the ethics of whether or not this is actually an ok thing to do: going in to the home of a civilisation that effectively came about through a slave revolt, and killing without question. The game never raises this unfortunately, but it's what I personally end up thinking.

The explanation given by Neil for Utobitha is "Second Generation Supermutants are just too dumb and easily influenced, so they believe Tabitha's propaganda.", which for me, doesn't really replicate the ambiguity I felt about Mariposa.

There is of course, ethical ambiguity in the quest, and that comes in the form of Tabitha: See, she's a person, and as such has her own relations, and like in Necropolis, if you're character is built towards repair, there's a peaceful option with this seemingly hostile force, that actually allows a better resolution for everyone: repair Rhonda. Tabitha's lack of companionship has made her far more prone to insanity, and repairing her robot effectively causes her to leave Black Mountain and go on a series of bizzare adventures throughout the Wasteland. Not using violence in this situation that obviously calls for it, creates a more satisfying ending.

However in my mind there are two main problem with this,
1.I'm sure many on this site are familiar with due to criticisms of Fallout 3: It completely robs agency of the people following orders, reducing them to mindless mooks for the people in charge. Only those in charge have a sense of personal agency and ethical responsibility.
2. It reduces the entire conflict between Marcus and Tabitha to "Tabitha's crazy", which isn't bad on it's own. Having a crazy-tyrant of a micro state isn't bad in and of itself, however it creates a black and white conflict whereby there are two Supermutant leaders, one's entire motive is "Bwahahaha, Utobitha", one's entire motive is "I want Supermutants to have a sense of self-determination"

There is a template that I think could be used to add more complexity here, and that's how Vault 15's handled in Fallout 2. It still has the problem with the leader only having agency, but it takes a traditionally un-nuanced group of flesh targets, and actually makes them feel more human.

I find Vault 15 one of the most powerful parts of the game: Darion is the son of Garl Deathhand, and the Vault Dweller canonically mercilessly wiped out the Khans in the previous game. Darion, who was a child at the time, was permanently traumatised by this event, and as a result has taken up to reconstructing the Khans from scratch, obsessed with this part of history and trying to recreate it.

In Fallout 1 there were multiple ways of dealing with the Khans which didn't involve shooting them all dead, however the game makes it clear that getting rid of these Raiders is better for everyone. Fallout 2 questions that, pointing out that the use of violence to achieve a goal, when it's against actual human beings, always has consequences beyond what's obvious.

By the time you realise this, it's already too late, there's no way of dealing with Darion other than violence, and so you're effectively put in a position where you're shown what the violence of the past lead to, and inevitably have to repeat it. In a way, it's a good encapsulation of "War Never Changes"

My suggestion for a rewrite of Black Mountain​

Start off the quest the same, with meeting Neil outside Black Mountain, and him informing you of the place's history. Maintain the basic lines about Second Gen Supermutants making up the bulk of Tabitha's army, and them supposedly being brainwashed by Tabitha's propaganda, but make Neil's assertion that Second Gens are inherently dumb mooks following orders more ambigous then a statement of fact, make it so while not wrong, there's maybe an underlying bias involved. It's coming from a First Gen who has a biased perspective of the world.

Then as the quest goes on, make it so that Neil is a biased narrator. He's a spy for Marcus, after all. Neil knows that Tabitha and Marcus are competing for leadership over the Supermutants wandering west due to displacement by the NCR, and figures (rightly) if Tabitha is no longer broadcasting from Black Mountain, then they'll all go to Jacobstown instead. He hasn't outright lied: he's just told you stuff from his personal perspective, which has an agenda attached.

Maybe through subtle clues, you could learn the perspective of Second Generation Supermutants: they're former slaves who mutated in to what they considered monstrosities, and had to fight a violent rebellion to gain their independence. They since learned the history of the Master's Army, and how Supermutants were once considered to be designed as a next stage of human evolution, and start adopting this as their narrative: they were better than their Enclave masters, and that's why they overthrew them.

Of course, they should still be partially by Tabitha's constant propaganda, but throughout all this, it's sympathetic as to why they fell for said propaganda in the first place. They were former slaves looking for a new identity, and Tabitha acted as a sort of a catalyst for their cultural concerns.

This Brainwashing means they can't be negotiated with, repeating the tragedy of Fallout 2 where you're repeating the violence of the past, but make this use of violence that is, in base game New Vegas unquestiond, seem more tragic, and remind the player that this is a group of people they are dealing with.

And while Neil should obviously remain sympathetic, make it clear that the situation is not as black and white as he thinks it is.

Maybe the killing of Tabitha could have more weight to it: the former members of Utobitha are traumatised by this: they thought they'd found a place in the world, and some Courier came in and killed their leader. They won't give up on their new ideology straight away, but rather will fondly remember Tabitha as a cultural hero generations later, and while they're new communities could be less violent, they'll still honour a fairly destructive ideology instilled in them by this period of their history.

Rewriting Marcus too​

If we're rewriting Tabitha, I think Marcus could use some rewrites to make him more interesting too.

One thing I've talked about in the past IRT Marcus, is how Marcus in dialogue in New Vegas is outright critical of the legacy of the Master's Army. This strays from his presentation in Fallout 2, where he quite openly believes the Master's plan would be good for the world, and that Jacob would be better off as a Mutant.

Other users rightly pointed out that in the decades that have passed since Fallout 2, his perspective may have changed, which I agree with, however I think the way his perspective has changed, in game, is fairly weak.

In New Vegas, he's mostly the "Good Supermutant" and all his dialogue reflects this, his opinions on everything from the Master's Army to the NCR(Despite the fact that NCR Senators are pretty directly harassing independent Supermutant communities out of existence for votes, as per the Mercenaries), and it doesn't feel much like an organic progression for the character.

Moreover, he has a lot of takes that the game seems to pass off as "The wisdom of an old Supermutant", but don't seem particularly well thought out. If the game was going for a "Marcus got wiser with age, seeing the rise of the NCR, the fall of Broken Hills, ect." type interpretation of the character, they could have made him someone who thinks a lot about certain topics, and has had to come to terms with them.

In rewriting Marcus, I'd make him have far more controversial takes, but ones inherently shaped by his experience of history. Like here's a handful of topics where this could come up

• Supermutants: Marcus is a Mutant, created specifically by intentional use of the FEV. Not only is he treated as a deviance from the norm and as such will inherently likely have to come to terms with his identity and place in the world somehow, but given his past, he inherently has to come to terms with the fact that he's a creature primarily created to be the next stage in human evolution. A thoughtful guy like Marcus, in my eyes, will probably have had to come to terms with the history of his own creation.
  
• The Master's Army: Marcus's current stance is that the Master's Army's was inherently doomed to fail, which is nice and all, but it's kinda lame. His stance in Fallout 2 was that the Master's Army was good and the Vault Dweller was in the wrong for destroying it, and that Supermutants genuinely were superior. It feels like there was no natural progression in ideology. A Marcus who changed his mind on the Unity is not out of the question, but I feel it needs to be explored WHY he felt that way. Moreover, tying this back to the first point: The Unity created Marcus, and gave Supermutants like him a clear place in the world: How he understands Supermutants' and their place in the world, in lieu of the Master's Army seems like a pretty big deal.
  
• Jacobstown: It's touched on briefly in-game, but Marcus went from running Broken Hills, a town of Ghouls, Supermutants and Humans, to instead encouraging Supermutants go in to isolation from the human world, hiding themselves up in various mountain towns. This would be an interesting thing to explore I feel, maybe make it seem more like he's gone from believing in living side by side to humans to general isolationism. I feel like this could tie in to the second point: Marcus still has an underlying belief that he has to care more for Supermutants than humans, even if he's challenged this belief in his head and tried to change his perspective, hell he was a former member of the Master's Army, and has faced the same hardships as all Supermutants have given it's collapse, and given violence carried out against them, as such it makes sense for him to have a sense of camraderie with. Moreover, recent occurances in the NCR, with senators all but instigating violence with Supermutants in order to get elected, means he's likely going to have less faith in being able to live besides humans, at least in this climate, while ultimately wanting to do so in the long run.
  
• The NCR: It's really jarring that Marcus's take on the NCR is "They mean well, but they're a bit expansionist" all the while knowing that NCR Senators regularly instigate violence among Supermutant communities as a scare tactic to get elected on xenophobic platforms. I like what he says about having seen the NCR grow from Shady Sands, and the ultimate positivity behind that, but he should be way more skeptical of the internal functions of the NCR, given all he knows.
  
• Caesar's Legion: Marcus's take on Caesar's Legion seems to be "It's a grand project for the future of humanity, and those are inherently doomed to fail", which kinda feels like it's meant to make him sound smart, but in practice is a really bad take. The Legion is actively misogynist, keeps slaves, and is violently conquering tribes. If Marcus still believed in the goal of the Unity, the take of "This is just human nature" would make sense, because it's how the Unity would view the situation. Since he doesn't, it feels completely morally apathetic of Marcus, having some grand semi-nonsensical take on why Caesar's Legion is bad, when in practice I feel like the actual actions of Caesar's Legion would be more immediately obvious to him.
  
• Marcus's Cynicism in general: So one thing I noticed writing this up, is that Marcus's take on the Master's Army and his take on Caesar's Legion are pretty similar: Strongman dictator trying to build a grand project for the future, doomed to fail. Which I actually do give the writers credit for, this is quite a clever take. The problem is, as I've already stated, it doesn't feel very natural: it's unclear how Marcus reached those conclusions about The Unity. Moreover, he mentions having seen the NCR grow from Shady Sands, so clearly he believes SOME grand projects for the future of humanity aren't doomed to fail, he just doesn't really specify the difference.

With Marcus's Cynicism as I discussed in mind, and the fact that he needs reason to be skeptical of the Unity, I feel like you could give him takes about how the Wasteland inherently creates petty kings trying to carve out their own piece through violence, and the general instability of this order, which would in part explain his take on the Master's Army beyond "Big project doomed to fail"

His take on the Unity could either be that of dissilusionment with the morality of turning people in to Supermutants, or still believing it could have worked had things gone differently, but ultimately, he's seen first hand that the Unity's hierarchy revolving around The Master singlehandedly expecting to lead this new order, created a situation where the Unity can and did collapse.

He already points out that Caesar is a charismatic dictator and his death will lead to the ultimate destruction of Caesar's Legion. By adding this bit of ambiguity, his stance on the Master's Army would be more clarified, and we could have a more justifiable reason as to why parallels are drawn between the two in Marcus's Army. Moreover, it would explain why he views the NCR differently: They were lead by respect and consensus, and even if they were grand projects, they were projects that came about through an attempt to create a genuine complex beurocracy. They differ from The Unity and Legion, which were entirely based an inherently unstable hierarchy attached to one man's dreams.

Of course as already stated: simply seeing these parallels isn't enough. I don't think Marcus should give Caesar the benefit of the doubt over ideology: He strikes me as someone who should object to the abject brutality of Legion on principle, not think it's only doomed to fail because "It like Master's Army", The Master's Army takes should come later, after pointing out that Marcus does in fact have a moral stake in the world, and his cynicism doesn't make him ethically apathetic.

 

[VaultTecCivilDefense]

Had New Vegas divorced itself entirely from the Bethesda Timeline, it would have made the game much better.

 

[Atomic Postman]

Had New Vegas divorced itself entirely from the Bethesda Timeline, it would have made the game much better.

I thought the ED-E storyline was good. What other connections are there?

 

[WonderGlueSniffer]

I thought the ED-E storyline was good. What other connections are there?

I believe in Veronica's dialogue when talking about the importance of the Codex that indirectly references the civil war in the East coast chapter, but not by name. But no, not many references to 3.

 

[Atomic Postman]

Let's talk about touching up Wild Card and Independent Vegas. I'll make one post about Vegas, and then at some other point one about Wild Card.

Firstly, I think the "native" parts of Vegas needed much more development. Freeside and the Strip are fine, but Westside, The Sewers and the Thorn are criminally underutilized, and I think the uncutting/re-incorporation of the town "Underpass" outside of Westside would have given more flesh to make the term "Independent Vegas" mean more than House's Strip. I also think Westside could be your "pro Wild Card" look-in. A group that are native to the Mojave and want freedom from NCR, Legion and House equally, and have their own ideas for "government". A thematic focus for these areas would be Vegas's tribal past, which is often overlooked.

Westside/North Vegas:

• More focus on the communitarian/co-op style of the area, the idea of mutualism would give it a unique identity
  
• Locals are made up of Vegas tribals and people who migrated from other, more desolate parts of Nevada a long while ago
• Area in general has a more tribal theme, with paintings on the walls of buildings, a few gecko-tanning posts, usage of Mark Morgan's "Beyond the Canyon" and "Second Chance", the intention is to marry the tribalism with the more gritty, "modern" low-life theme.
  
• A Quest exploring "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" as an idea, resolving a conflict of mutualism in the community of Westside. Someone taking more than their share, or abusing the system et cetera.
• Locals are vocal about disliking House as he's as much of an outsider as the NCR or Legion are, he's some mystery man in a tower that nobody knew and appeared out of nowhere. He's not a "local" to the Mojave Wasteland. Not to mention his historic treatment of vegas tribes.
• The Scorpions are specifically made up of former tribals that are in effect dispondant, angry at the world and out for themselves. Since Vegas's "settlement", they've become alcoholic thugs that start fights, push chems and gamble their money in Freeside. They represent the breakdown in community that has occured with the intrusion of House and NCR's version of Vegas. They exclusively use (tribal) melee/unarmed weapons.
• Crandon of North Vegas tasks you with getting the Scorpions out of the area. Which can be done in several ways. The first is to simply kill them. The second is to use Intimidating Presence to frighten them away for good without violence. The third is part of a more entangled questline which I will explain
• Jules believes the Scorpions can become part of the community again, with some work. Putting their "warrior spirit" to use in defending the community instead of parasiting it. This is partially because his cousin, Yvette, is the leader of the Scorpions. Talking to Jules allows for an option to discuss with Yvette (by appealing to family) the idea of working to protect the town in exchange for produce from the Co-Op, to which they aren't interested. Unless, that is, the Courier has established the mutual exchange with Underpass and the Co-Op can provide tobacco for the Scorpions as payment. This can be agreed upon, but there are two further hurdles: Jules and Yvette both agree that they'll need an "offering" to be welcomed back by the community, and there are a handful of the Scorpions whose reputations are too stained to rejoin the town. Both are deal-breakers. The former is found through Yvette, and effectively involves setting up a trade between the Scorpions and Contrereas out of Camp McCarran, who can provide the Scorpions with cheap firearms and armor siphoned from NCR stock. If Contrereas is arrested or dead, this can't happen. The latter is solved through suggesting the troublemakers join The Thorn as paid fighters, if you have good rep with Red Lucy, this can occur. If all of this is green, the Scorpions end up rejoining the community as town guards.

Underpass:

• Community living in shacks underneath, you guessed it, an Underpass. Restored content
  
• They make money by farming Molerats (which they de-teeth) and growing tobacco.
  
• Crimson Caravan has established an exclusive trade deal to provide them with water in exchange for their tobacco, for sale to nobody else but them
  
• A mutual exchange can be fostered between Westside and Underpass, by using Barter in order to convince Underpass to break off their reliance on Crimson Caravan (who are going to progressively bottleneck the profit margins of the deal) and instead trade with the local Westside, who can provide water (provided The White Wash hasn't cut off their NCR-stolen water) in exchange for the tobacco and Molerat meat.

The Thorn/Vegas Sewers:

• The Thorn was founded by a former Vegas tribe that were effectively nomadic game hunters. The influx of cheap NCR food product meant that the effort required for hunting and the profit from sale was just incompatible, and so they were forced to change.
  
• The Courier's quest to find all the Eggs is also part of an age old tribal ritual, and by its completion the Courier is bestowed a unique tribal title
  
• Restore the content allowing the Courier to free all the animals, add a disgruntled former fighter mutilated by them that inspires the Courier to do it out of vengeance.
  
• There's a huge bar in the Vegas sewers named the "Badland Brewery" with a custom moonshine brewery. Here the player can get into drinking competitions based on their Endurance (be sure to bring Cass along if you can't cut it), chase up unpaid bar-tabs, listen to wild rumours (a story about the Sierra Madre!) and establish a deal with the Atomic Wrangler in Freeside.
  
• The Thorn and the people of the New Vegas Sewers need a better source of clean air, as everyone has noticed it's getting a little thick down there. You're referred to finding Bill Ronte, who can finish up a filtration system that was worked on a couple years back but never finished. If Ronte is sober, he can tell the Courier that to finish the job he'd need a part from a Vault. This will lead the Courier to Vault 19. Payment for Ronte to fix up the sewers air filtration can come in the form of caps from the player (Sewer residents can't afford it), or perhaps in the form of moonshine from the bar (no cost to the player).

The overall idea I feel would be to give more meat to the bones of local Vegas, and to give an idea of the type of mutually beneficial trades that the tribal communities of the Mojave could provide eachother, basically a window into the potential of New Vegas as independent.

 

[WonderGlueSniffer]

At risk of frustrating the player's sense of agency, I think the peaceful path in Heartaches by the Number should reinforce the pervasive influence of the caravans on NCR. Namely, when the evidence is given to Ranger Jackson, he dies about a week later under suspicious circumstances and is replaced with a commander much more willing to play ball with the caravans who need to move in and out of the outpost. Van Graafs and Crimson get away with it... unless of course the player robbed the Gun Runners...

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

Let's talk about touching up Wild Card and Independent Vegas. I'll make one post about Vegas, and then at some other point one about Wild Card.

Firstly, I think the "native" parts of Vegas needed much more development. Freeside and the Strip are fine, but Westside, The Sewers and the Thorn are criminally underutilized, and I think the uncutting/re-incorporation of the town "Underpass" outside of Westside would have given more flesh to make the term "Independent Vegas" mean more than House's Strip. I also think Westside could be your "pro Wild Card" look-in. A group that are native to the Mojave and want freedom from NCR, Legion and House equally, and have their own ideas for "government". A thematic focus for these areas would be Vegas's tribal past, which is often overlooked.

Westside/North Vegas:

• More focus on the communitarian/co-op style of the area, the idea of mutualism would give it a unique identity
  
• Locals are made up of Vegas tribals and people who migrated from other, more desolate parts of Nevada a long while ago
• Area in general has a more tribal theme, with paintings on the walls of buildings, a few gecko-tanning posts, usage of Mark Morgan's "Beyond the Canyon" and "Second Chance", the intention is to marry the tribalism with the more gritty, "modern" low-life theme.
  
• A Quest exploring "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" as an idea, resolving a conflict of mutualism in the community of Westside. Someone taking more than their share, or abusing the system et cetera.
• Locals are vocal about disliking House as he's as much of an outsider as the NCR or Legion are, he's some mystery man in a tower that nobody knew and appeared out of nowhere. He's not a "local" to the Mojave Wasteland. Not to mention his historic treatment of vegas tribes.
• The Scorpions are specifically made up of former tribals that are in effect dispondant, angry at the world and out for themselves. Since Vegas's "settlement", they've become alcoholic thugs that start fights, push chems and gamble their money in Freeside. They represent the breakdown in community that has occured with the intrusion of House and NCR's version of Vegas. They exclusively use (tribal) melee/unarmed weapons.
• Crandon of North Vegas tasks you with getting the Scorpions out of the area. Which can be done in several ways. The first is to simply kill them. The second is to use Intimidating Presence to frighten them away for good without violence. The third is part of a more entangled questline which I will explain
• Jules believes the Scorpions can become part of the community again, with some work. Putting their "warrior spirit" to use in defending the community instead of parasiting it. This is partially because his cousin, Yvette, is the leader of the Scorpions. Talking to Jules allows for an option to discuss with Yvette (by appealing to family) the idea of working to protect the town in exchange for produce from the Co-Op, to which they aren't interested. Unless, that is, the Courier has established the mutual exchange with Underpass and the Co-Op can provide tobacco for the Scorpions as payment. This can be agreed upon, but there are two further hurdles: Jules and Yvette both agree that they'll need an "offering" to be welcomed back by the community, and there are a handful of the Scorpions whose reputations are too stained to rejoin the town. Both are deal-breakers. The former is found through Yvette, and effectively involves setting up a trade between the Scorpions and Contrereas out of Camp McCarran, who can provide the Scorpions with cheap firearms and armor siphoned from NCR stock. If Contrereas is arrested or dead, this can't happen. The latter is solved through suggesting the troublemakers join The Thorn as paid fighters, if you have good rep with Red Lucy, this can occur. If all of this is green, the Scorpions end up rejoining the community as town guards.

Underpass:

• Community living in shacks underneath, you guessed it, an Underpass. Restored content
  
• They make money by farming Molerats (which they de-teeth) and growing tobacco.
  
• Crimson Caravan has established an exclusive trade deal to provide them with water in exchange for their tobacco, for sale to nobody else but them
  
• A mutual exchange can be fostered between Westside and Underpass, by using Barter in order to convince Underpass to break off their reliance on Crimson Caravan (who are going to progressively bottleneck the profit margins of the deal) and instead trade with the local Westside, who can provide water (provided The White Wash hasn't cut off their NCR-stolen water) in exchange for the tobacco and Molerat meat.

The Thorn/Vegas Sewers:

• The Thorn was founded by a former Vegas tribe that were effectively nomadic game hunters. The influx of cheap NCR food product meant that the effort required for hunting and the profit from sale was just incompatible, and so they were forced to change.
  
• The Courier's quest to find all the Eggs is also part of an age old tribal ritual, and by its completion the Courier is bestowed a unique tribal title
  
• Restore the content allowing the Courier to free all the animals, add a disgruntled former fighter mutilated by them that inspires the Courier to do it out of vengeance.
  
• There's a huge bar in the Vegas sewers named the "Badland Brewery" with a custom moonshine brewery. Here the player can get into drinking competitions based on their Endurance (be sure to bring Cass along if you can't cut it), chase up unpaid bar-tabs, listen to wild rumours (a story about the Sierra Madre!) and establish a deal with the Atomic Wrangler in Freeside.
  
• The Thorn and the people of the New Vegas Sewers need a better source of clean air, as everyone has noticed it's getting a little thick down there. You're referred to finding Bill Ronte, who can finish up a filtration system that was worked on a couple years back but never finished. If Ronte is sober, he can tell the Courier that to finish the job he'd need a part from a Vault. This will lead the Courier to Vault 19. Payment for Ronte to fix up the sewers air filtration can come in the form of caps from the player (Sewer residents can't afford it), or perhaps in the form of moonshine from the bar (no cost to the player).

The overall idea I feel would be to give more meat to the bones of local Vegas, and to give an idea of the type of mutually beneficial trades that the tribal communities of the Mojave could provide eachother, basically a window into the potential of New Vegas as independent.

For the most part I really like these ideas, it would really help to flesh out the outer Vegas area, which are some of my favorite settlements in the game despite being so underdeveloped. A couple of things came to mind when reading this:

First of all, the reformed Scorpions becoming “town guards” for Westside/North Vegas. It’s a nice way to give these towns some security in the form of a more local, decentralized force, but the cynic in me can’t help but think these Scorpions would inevitably end up becoming oppressors themselves, similar to the Regulators of Adytum. Maybe having Scorpion guards could be the “best” case scenario for an Independent Vegas, but it wouldn’t be perfect, fitting the “war(humanity) never changes” and “meet the new boss same as the old boss” themes of the game.

Another thing, I love the idea of the outer Vegas peoples being former tribals seeking refuge in New Vegas (maybe some of them were even fleeing the Legion?), and I think this could be expanded upon by having a sort of cultural conflict between the old, conservative tribals who originally settled there decades ago, and their offspring who were born in New Vegas and feel less connection to the traditions of their tribes. The younger ones would be attracted to the glitz and glamor of the Strip (from what they’ve heard of it at least), and would be more interested in living the Freeside life of drugs, sex and rock’n’roll, joining gangs (like the Greasers, Scorpions, Kings, or even Fiends) and for the most part just disappointing their parents. Maybe you could have some young character that had joined the Followers, and he could explain to you the frustrations that the younger generations feel with their parents’ attitudes, versus some old guy in Westside telling you how these young kids are running around hopped up on jet and acting like a disgrace to their ancestors. Just a thought I had that could highlight the pros and cons between tribalism and “civilization”.

 

[Atomic Postman]

For the most part I really like these ideas, it would really help to flesh out the outer Vegas area, which are some of my favorite settlements in the game despite being so underdeveloped. A couple of things came to mind when reading this:

First of all, the reformed Scorpions becoming “town guards” for Westside/North Vegas. It’s a nice way to give these towns some security in the form of a more local, decentralized force, but the cynic in me can’t help but think these Scorpions would inevitably end up becoming oppressors themselves, similar to the Regulators of Adytum. Maybe having Scorpion guards could be the “best” case scenario for an Independent Vegas, but it wouldn’t be perfect, fitting the “war(humanity) never changes” and “meet the new boss same as the old boss” themes of the game.

Westside already has a militia in the game itself, and it also has Meansonofabitch. The Scorpions would just be more men, not the whole force. I also agree that the uncertainty suits Independent Vegas to a T - could go good, could go really bad. I thought it might be an interesting idea that you could perhaps set up a deal with the Badland Brewery and pay them in booze, which would result in a bad outcome as the militiamen would get trashed and act irresponsibly.

Another thing, I love the idea of the outer Vegas peoples being former tribals seeking refuge in New Vegas (maybe some of them were even fleeing the Legion?), and I think this could be expanded upon by having a sort of cultural conflict between the old, conservative tribals who originally settled there decades ago, and their offspring who were born in New Vegas and feel less connection to the traditions of their tribes. The younger ones would be attracted to the glitz and glamor of the Strip (from what they’ve heard of it at least), and would be more interested in living the Freeside life of drugs, sex and rock’n’roll, joining gangs (like the Greasers, Scorpions, Kings, or even Fiends) and for the most part just disappointing their parents. Maybe you could have some young character that had joined the Followers, and he could explain to you the frustrations that the younger generations feel with their parents’ attitudes, versus some old guy in Westside telling you how these young kids are running around hopped up on jet and acting like a disgrace to their ancestors. Just a thought I had that could highlight the pros and cons between tribalism and “civilization”.

That's kind of the vibe I wanted for the Scorpions. Frustrated young people who have been raised in the New Vegas culture, and don't give a shit about community.

 

[Atomic Postman]

Less of a rewrite but more of a "Things that were missed out on because how New Vegas was made" but there's a sore lack of post-war architecture. There sort of is in the form of the NCRCF prison. But places like Mojave Outpost, Camp Forlorn Hope, Crimson Caravan, Gun Runners, and the Fort should have been more than ramshackle shantyhouses or ruins (which doesn't even make any sense whatsoever in the story context of Mojave Outpost).

I think making these places into the classic NCR adobe/sandcrete architecture would be fitting (there's a mod on the Nexus that does just that IIRC) although I can't picture what Legion architecture would look like. It can't be truly roman because they wouldn't have the resources or really reason for that at a millitary installation, whilst sandcrete would be practical and fitting to their location of origin it's already taken by NCR. Can't doo wooden fortifications for obvious reasons.

Any ideas for what "The Fort" might have looked like?

 

[Sicknessoverload]

Can we get rid of G.I. Blues, I'm happy with the way New Vegas is but holy shit that quest sucks ass. I wonder if Caesar would put a colosseum in New Vegas when he takes it over... But as for the design I imagine pillars and stone buildings, a Roman inspiration, but with modern architecture.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

With that in mind, here are further tweaks: The "Priests" mentioned are predominantly women. Women are not viewed as inferior or second class citizens, but rather "different" by nature, all must commit themselves to serving Caesar, men are best suited to giving their lives in war, and women are more suited to producing strong warriors, raising them in our ways and healing them when they are sick.

This is something that you and many others, including Sawyer and Avellone, have said, but I just hardcore disagree for numerous reasons.

Firstly, those extreme levels of misogyny are pretty good and honest reflections of the antique cultures that Caesar seeks to emulate that we tend to whitewash, among other things. Granted its a lot more true for the Greeks than the Romans, but still.

Secondly, those levels of extreme misogyny almost always underlie reactionary ideology, largely because a lot of reactionary ideologies have sexual anxiety at their core. But if we're being a little more generous, we can see that it's just because these philosophies like a deeply ordered view of the world, and that includes an ordered system of gender relations. A lot of modern reactionaries probably would tend to phrase it as you have, that men aren't superior and women inferior, but they have distinct and equally important roles to play... but often the subtext is that we value the role played by men more, especially for the fascist since their worldview is so inherently masculinist.

Third, and somewhat related to the former point, that level of misogyny would be really effective in forging what is essentially a confraternal order, a military organization like the Legion which is divorced from any loyalty to a society other than the body of the Legion and its leader. Its made up almost entirely of men who were brought up within it. It's essentially the ultimate boy's club, and that sort of exclusionary sexism which views the women who are outside of it as fundamentally inferior (and also likely conceives of its relations to other people in terms of sexual domination) would probably be useful for the kind of group cohesion Caesar wants.

I think that it could be interesting if there was some possibility to get the Legion to rhetorically pivot moreso towards the disguised "Well they have a distinct but important sphere" that more modern reactionaries take, and maybe even allow the occasional exceptional woman into the ranks of the Legion. Presumably this would be done by a female Courier who is idolized and has ideally completed as many quests for the Legion as possible... and even then, the most that can be hoped for is a mild rhetorical shift and her being recognized as exceptional.

I do think a Daughters of Hecate/Priestesses type organization is a great idea and should absolutely be in the game, but overall I don't think the Legion's level of misogyny needs to be significantly altered.

Willow

I really like this overall, especially the emphasis that things in Arizona were actually getting worse, not better. It was kind of too easy for us to forget that New Vegas takes place in a shattered world, and these societies are running on fumes - there is a very good chance that these organized societies could fall a second time and humanity would never get back up again, especially if they inefficiently squander their resources. The only major reminder of this in the base game is Hanlon and to some extent the DLC arc. Another reminder would be nice, but ESPECIALLY in the context of justifying the Legion - it impresses upon the viewer the urgency of Caesar's mission, that we actually may not have much time left to get things right.

Elephant Hill

Great idea. Would maybe add enough interactions to make Child at Heart halfway worthwhile.

Mr. House:

The House Always Wins VI

Great stuff here.

Caesar's Legion: Marcus's take on Caesar's Legion seems to be "It's a grand project for the future of humanity, and those are inherently doomed to fail", which kinda feels like it's meant to make him sound smart, but in practice is a really bad take. The Legion is actively misogynist, keeps slaves, and is violently conquering tribes. If Marcus still believed in the goal of the Unity, the take of "This is just human nature" would make sense, because it's how the Unity would view the situation. Since he doesn't, it feels completely morally apathetic of Marcus, having some grand semi-nonsensical take on why Caesar's Legion is bad, when in practice I feel like the actual actions of Caesar's Legion would be more immediately obvious to him.

Eh, the inherent similarity between the Unity and the Legion inclines me to think that Marcus would be warm or at least sympathetic towards it.

• Locals are made up of Vegas tribals and people who migrated from other, more desolate parts of Nevada a long while ago
• Area in general has a more tribal theme, with paintings on the walls of buildings, a few gecko-tanning posts, usage of Mark Morgan's "Beyond the Canyon" and "Second Chance", the intention is to marry the tribalism with the more gritty, "modern" low-life theme.

I'm so glad you hit on this, because for me it was one of the most interesting missed opportunities of the game. Almost every single person in the Vegas conurbation was 15 years ago a tribal who regarded the world in a similar way to the Zion tribals. All of a sudden, their way of life had dramatically changed and they've had a crash course in the new modernity. In the case of the Families, House is trying to force them not only to adopt the costumes of an alien world but also a totally alien, artifically imposed pyschology. What is arguably the best quest in the entire franchise, Beyond the Beef, is coincidentally the only quest in the game to really play with the tension between this barely sublimated "savagery" and some artificial identity imposed from above. In my opinion, all three of the families should have had their main quest center around this tension.

But its also true for the people of Outer Vegas, they also were tribals until very recently, but their experience is much more natural and much more comparable to what we see among indigenous people in colonized states, living at the edge of tremendous surpluses that are both deeply enticing but deeply damaging and unfulfilling compared to the comparative poverty but stability of their prior subsistence lifestyle, not to mention the suffering inflicted as they're integrated into this system.

Lack of cultural know-how to deal with new societal ills (like alcohol for Native Americans, or indeed gin in 17th century Britain) leads to a lot of experimentation to develop new coping methods and institutions to face the world that are seemingly eccentric. These experimentations are also attempts to gain greater access to the surpluses they are peripheral too. What I'm getting at here is that the Kings are in a sense literally a cargo a cult. That's a fascinating way of looking at it, and I wsih the game did more to emphasize it, along with all of the other tribal factors.

• A Quest exploring "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" as an idea, resolving a conflict of mutualism in the community of Westside. Someone taking more than their share, or abusing the system et cetera.

Only tangentially related, but I really wish there had been more focus on scrapping/salvaging. Really, the only time this was adequately addressed in the entire sereis was Adytum, and there its at a very early level. A massive amount of Vegas's industry should center around the reprocessing of raw materials in the city ruins, especially since its ruins are so much more intact than any other city. We get sort of an allusion to it in The Coyotes with Sait James using it as a plausible cover story for what he does, and also in North Vegas Square with the mention of scrapping around the H&H Tools factory. Still, wish it had been a bigger deal.

• The Scorpions

Great stuff, though I find it interesting that you didn't use one of component of their cut content: framing them in The White Wash, and then getting the NCR to exterminate them for you. Also, there should probably be an option to get them the guns but not reconcile them with the community, essentially turning them into a gang albeit better preferable to the Fiends.

Underpass

Simple, but effective. I like how its essentially a plantation colony.

Which reminds me... I wish they had done a bit more with the Sharecroppers Farm, considering the troubling implications of sharecropping in American history, and the vague mentions of "Agribarons." Possibly could have been tied in more strongly to Crimson Caravan/Van Graff arc.

Less of a rewrite but more of a "Things that were missed out on because how New Vegas was made" but there's a sore lack of post-war architecture. There sort of is in the form of the NCRCF prison. But places like Mojave Outpost, Camp Forlorn Hope, Crimson Caravan, Gun Runners, and the Fort should have been more than ramshackle shantyhouses or ruins (which doesn't even make any sense whatsoever in the story context of Mojave Outpost).

I think making these places into the classic NCR adobe/sandcrete architecture would be fitting (there's a mod on the Nexus that does just that IIRC) although I can't picture what Legion architecture would look like. It can't be truly roman because they wouldn't have the resources or really reason for that at a millitary installation, whilst sandcrete would be practical and fitting to their location of origin it's already taken by NCR. Can't doo wooden fortifications for obvious reasons.

Any ideas for what "The Fort" might have looked like?

I definitely agree with you here, though in terms of specific buildings -
-Mojave Outpost is a pre-War highway patrol/rest stop/toll booth station, so it makes sense that it would be pre-War.
-I used to agree with you on Camp Forlorn Hope, but I was reading up on it a few days and found that it was actually intentionally designed to seem very ramshackle and slapdash, which makes sense. So tents and scrap shacks fit perfect, even if they're ugly.
-I was actually under the impression that the Crimson Caravan barracks were post-War, and I'm pretty OK with their design.
-No disagreement at all on the Gun Runners
-Eh, it being mostly tents works really well for what it was going for, though perhaps more solid walls would work instead of the scrap walls.

But I still agree with what you're saying. I know exactly the mod you're talking about, and I like that its NCR buildigns are essentially in the Mission style, works really well considering California's architectural influences, building off of the Shady Sands adobe, and also contributing to the Old West theme, but it also feels distinctly alien when contrasted with the otherwise very modern NCR.

The site that I think could do the most with it is Boulder City, since we're constantly being told that it's being rebuilt even though it looks like rubble and there are no visible signs of construction. It could also make sense for Nelson to be entirely adobe, since I believe originally it was entirely post-War and massive metal fortifications, but they changed it since it was probably beyond the factions' capabilities. I'd also think NCR embassy should be changed - I'm not sure why there would be some squat little building right on the Las Vegas strip pre-War, and it being a new unique construction is a much better representation of NCR.

Otherwise, I'd say they should be scattered around and mixed with the traditional ramshackles buildings we know and love.

As to the Legion - obviously it would also have to be some kind of adobe considering the environemtn, but I think where NCR goes towards the more familiar Mission style, the Legion should go towards a more intimidating and alien style - namely, bronze age mid eastern mudbrick of Babylon, Egypt, and Canaan. Think Sword and Sandals, Ben Hur/10 Commandments/Life of Brian. Also mixes really well with the slavery angle, as well as ancient majesty.

 

[Jogre]

Eh, the inherent similarity between the Unity and the Legion inclines me to think that Marcus would be warm or at least sympathetic towards it.

I don't think that's a fair assesment. Like "Legion is authoritarian, the Unity was authoritarian, therefore Marcus would sympathise with the Legion since he sympathised with the Unity"

Like, the Unity were at least technologically progressive, using the newest innovations, and had a fairly convincing grand vision for their reason for existence.

To anyone not already indoctrinated in to Legion propaganda, they seem like a violent, expansionistic Empire. I don't think someone with strong principles from the Unity would blindly support them.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

I don't think that's a fair assesment. Like "Legion is authoritarian, the Unity was authoritarian, therefore Marcus would sympathise with the Legion since he sympathised with the Unity"

Like, the Unity were at least technologically progressive, using the newest innovations, and had a fairly convincing grand vision for their reason for existence.

To anyone not already indoctrinated in to Legion propaganda, they seem like a violent, expansionistic Empire. I don't think someone with strong principles from the Unity would blindly support them.

The premise of the Unity was to create a totalizing unified entity (a 'Unity' if you will) that subsumed all of humanity into it, obliterating all culture and distinction between people to turn them into a homogenized force that is totally loyal to a mind-ctrolling deity - forever. You would be stripped of many of the fundamental characteristics of your humanity and your self. This would be done by force - you will be converted whether you like it or not, and if you make any attempt at resistance you and your community will be obliterated. This is all done because it's been deemed necessary to survive the new world, a new society must be created that is stronger than the old one.

For me, it seems like the differences between the Unity and the Legion are largely trivial. At least he allows for the preservation of a lot more of our fundamental humanity (in fact its central to his ideology), and at least theoretically he intends for his society to become less brutal and totalitarian once it's firmly established/has subsumed the NCR, even if this will likely not happen.

The note of the fact that the fundamental distinction is use of technology seems silly - that's just an artifact of their contexts. The Unity arose out of a super high-tech military base with access to the most advanced tech availiable, and being so much closer to the War itself there was just a lot more high tech salvage lying around. The Legion arose in a comparatively impoverished and extremely primitive region, 200 years after the war when the riches of the pre-War world are starting to become even more depleted.

I don't think he would blindly follow it, but I think he could see something symnpathetic about it. Hsis biggest problem with it is that it's dependent on the old-OS, normal human beings, whereas the Master's Army really was composed of "New Soviet Men."

 

[Atomic Postman]

Speaking of Ben Hur influence and the Legion, I always thought that the body gear of the Legionaries was perfect for the post-apocalyptic Romans, but the look never gave off "Roman" because of the head-gear. They should have had imitations of galea helmets at the very least. Even something as simple as Skyrim's Imperial Soldier leather gelea looking things with a red scarf/cape would have sold the look, with Prime Legionaries and above having metal imitations, and then the Decanus and Centurions having further gold/bronze trimmings and plumes. Similarly, I realize the engine couldn't handle it but in an ideal world the spear (preferably with a red cloth bound around it) should have been the weapon of choice of the Legionaries.

Soundtrack wise, I enjoy the Legion theme as is but I also feel something more classic Hollywood "Roman" would have been suitable. Example:

 

[Hardboiled Android]

Disagree, I think the Legion's current outfit is absolutely perfect. The helmets are really weird, creepy, and dehumanizing, and the feather plumes impresses their primitiveness and tribal origins well IMO.

Would be an acceptable use of classical music in the game, and a coutnerpart to the militaristic orchestrals of NCR.

I never considered a more Sword and Sandals/Biblical vibe for the Legion before last night, but I really am attached to it now.

 

[Atomic Postman]

Disagree, I think the Legion's current outfit is absolutely perfect. The helmets are really weird, creepy, and dehumanizing, and the feather plumes impresses their primitiveness and tribal origins well IMO.

Would be an acceptable use of classical music in the game, and a coutnerpart to the militaristic orchestrals of NCR.

I never considered a more Sword and Sandals/Biblical vibe for the Legion before last night, but I really am attached to it now.

I think keeping the faces covered with scarves is a good decision because it does reflect their society well (and the thick goggles give a nice 'Mad Max' touch), but it's literally just the hats that I have a problem with. I think the balaclavas with the Mad Max goggles AND imitation Roman helmets would have sold the look better. I also agree that the feather plumes are suitable for the post-apoc environment, but the flight helmets just really stop their visual design as reading "Roman" to me.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

I think keeping the faces covered with scarves is a good decision because it does reflect their society well (and the thick goggles give a nice 'Mad Max' touch), but it's literally just the hats that I have a problem with. I think the balaclavas with the Mad Max goggles AND imitation Roman helmets would have sold the look better. I also agree that the feather plumes are suitable for the post-apoc environment, but the flight helmets just really stop their visual design as reading "Roman" to me.

I agree that the uniform doesn't really sell Roman aside from the skirt/uniformity/kind of the color sceme, but I think that's a good thing - if they looked like Romans, they would look half way noble and not like an army of tyrannical slavers that in reality have very little to do with Rome. Plus I think a leather galea would probably look dumb.

Just a simple leather football cap works really well with the rest of the outfit, and the addiotion of the feathers as an imitation of a horsehair plume both because horses are extinct and to signify their tribal influence works perfect for me.