So if Caesar had won, what would happen next?

Hardboiled Android said:
The Hub, as it tied the Wasteland together in Fallout 1, ties together NCR, dividing it in three. To the north, you have the political center of the State of Shady (along with Junktown). To the south is the industrial capital in the Boneyard, along with Dayglow. To the west is the presumptive agricultural center, the more-recently acquired Central Valley, with the state of Maxson, Sac-Town, and the Redding Territory (presumably also where most of the fighting of the NCR-Brotherhood War is).

The Hub itself, the economic and logistical center of NCR, presumably ties the country together with its roads and rail networks. If you take that, NCR is cut in three, cut off from each other and able to be taken piecemeal without coordination or supplies between the thirds. Once the Hub is taken I presume Caesar will want to go for Shady Sands first, take out the political center and break the will of the south and the valley to fight. The Legion moves up the valley itself, just a straight flat line without many natural defenses. Lightly settled with the Brotherhood pocketed throughout, the Central Valley will crumble pretty easily. It migth fall apart without the Legion even entering it, just from political chaos and the Brotherhood staging breakout raids from their bunkers and hidden outposts.
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My post doesn't contribute to this discussion, but this reminds me of the opening Julius Caesar's Commentaries.

"All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called “Celts,” in our language “Gauls,” the third. All these differ from each other in language, customs and laws."

Since Caesar has these, he might be even more tempted to hit the Hub. (But who's his Vercingetorix?)


Hardboiled Android said:
Now, does the Legion win the Battle of Barstow or the Battle of the Hub? I think not. As others mention, the NCR has superior mobility/maneuver to the Legion, not only does it have mechanized units it also has rail infrastructure in its heartland. While the NCR failed to utilize it's mechanized capacity in the eastern Mojave, now that the Legion is advancing into its core territory they'll have to pull their heads out. And since the Legion is now marching into the part of NCR supplied by rail lines, they'll be shocked at how quickly the Californians are able to get men and materiel in place.

During the week's march from the mountain pass to Barstow, I think the NCR will turn the tables on Caesar and harass him the whole way down. If Caesar attempts to campaign through the desert to obviate ambushes and attacks, he'll find himself outmaneuvered by mechanized NCR forces in the wide open high desert. He'll have to stick to Long 15 and Interstate 40, dealing with attacks and needling the whole time. And the NCR will be ready for him at Barstow.
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This wants me to write a Legion campaign similar to Xenophon and his 10,000 hoplites trying to make it home from deep in hostile territory. You can even emulate the moment where Xenophon finds the ruins of an Assyrian city, which is larger than anything the Greeks could ever build.

Players are soldiers, or mercenaries, in a battle where they lose (or their commander is killed if they win like what happened to Xenophon). Their in NCR surrounded by angry settlers, soldiers, and Brotherhood, Caesar has kicked the hornets' nest, and the Bull is dying.
 
Yeah, I think Caesar's Legion would be utterly pasted if not for the ridiculous series of bad luck rolls under Kimball.

* The Divide being destroyed
* Oliver's incompetence
* The Brotherhood of Steel battle at the solar energy farm
* The Great Khans fucking up things after Bitter Springs
* The Powder Gangers
* Two of House's gangs planning on betraying him, giving them a chance to royally screw NCR.

It's really a perfect storm of events to give them a fighting chance at Hoover Dam.
 
I think a number of things happens that keeps Caesar in Nevada. I also assume the courier was an NCR/House type character canonically and died at Hoover dam. I think he wouldn't push into California without it being prepped to be destabilized. I can definitely see frumentarii infiltrating the NCR congress, the executive positions of companies, and even just starting small groups much like the communists did in 50s America.

I also think that Caesar wouldn't be able to keep lanius penned up doing nothing and would need to distract him until the invasion was ready. I feel in a legion playthrough the rangers would defect from NCR and go back to the desert ranger way, causing a lot of trouble for Caesar in the style of guerilla warfare. The Khan's seem to have enough plot armor they would inevitably survive the backstabbing of the legion and cause problems too.

There would be a lot of fires to put out at home, and ironically Caesar would also have to deal with the fiends he armed and radicalized much like the Americans did with the Mujahideen. The Mojave would not be an open and shut book with him claiming Vegas.
 
Yossarrion said:
I think a number of things happens that keeps Caesar in Nevada. I also assume the courier was an NCR/House type character canonically and died at Hoover dam. I think he wouldn't push into California without it being prepped to be destabilized. I can definitely see frumentarii infiltrating the NCR congress, the executive positions of companies, and even just starting small groups much like the communists did in 50s America.
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Wouldn't all of those positions require them to be of a mindset different than child soldiers raised to believe Caesar is a god? A lot of cults suffer from losses when they have their people outside of the cult's direct media feed and bubble. The Frumentari in the Great Khans, for example, ends up exposing himself relatively easily.
 
CT Phipps said:
Wouldn't all of those positions require them to be of a mindset different than child soldiers raised to believe Caesar is a god? A lot of cults suffer from losses when they have their people outside of the cult's direct media feed and bubble. The Frumentari in the Great Khans, for example, ends up exposing himself relatively easily.
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Captain Curtis in the NCR is an officer in the NCR and had joined before they even encountered Caesars Legion. Karl was just a shitty example because they didn't put much effort into exposing him.
 
PaxVenire said:
One thing to point out would be his hypocrisy when it comes to the Auto-Doc in his tent which cures the mighty Caesar of his tumor, a machine he bestows as a gift to his most loyal and effective troops as well. He isn't against being a hypocrite so long as his hypocrisy benefits the Legion, in which I believe if he's willing to submit himself to the Auto-Doc to see the taking of Vegas, he'd probably be willing to become the Wizard of Oz with House's technology.
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Hitler was killing about 10 so it's for everyone Germany laws would actually destroyed Germany was the United States and Great Britain bombing all of the factories into the Stone Age is the Soviets were actually got all four soldiers.



PaxVenire said:
One thing to point out would be his hypocrisy when it comes to the Auto-Doc in his tent which cures the mighty Caesar of his tumor, a machine he bestows as a gift to his most loyal and effective troops as well. He isn't against being a hypocrite so long as his hypocrisy benefits the Legion, in which I believe if he's willing to submit himself to the Auto-Doc to see the taking of Vegas, he'd probably be willing to become the Wizard of Oz with House's technology.
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Caesar is hypocritical and that aspect but he's not actually saying that the legion does not use Tech it's that mankind should be the master of tech rather than technology being the master of mankind.
the low IQ idiots hit Reddit think that Caesar's Auntie every single technology when is clearly showing the Second Battle of Hoover Dam they have newly made anti-material rifles.
 
Nicholas the Second said:
Hitler was killing about 10 so it's for everyone Germany laws would actually destroyed Germany was the United States and Great Britain bombing all of the factories into the Stone Age is the Soviets were actually got all four soldiers.


the low IQ idiots hit Reddit think that Caesar's Auntie every single technology when is clearly showing the Second Battle of Hoover Dam they have newly made anti-material rifles.
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I think I'm having a stroke.
 
I think it's heavily implied that the NCRs overextension and being cut off by the Divide is causing their current weakness.

It's unlikely, in my opinion, that the Legion would invade the West on the short-term - especially if Caesar dies (which is basically canon), because with Lanius at the wheel the Legion will be led more rationally.
 
Their march westward would wreck them. The NCR could barely supply the Mojave using trains, while the Legion relied on slaves and beasts of burden. It would be their undoing.
This reminds me of the Spanish tercios who got annihilated by the Apache when they tried to pacify the Southern plains and Alta California. Large formations which cannot be supported as they lack the logistics and the land is too barren to live off.
 
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Does Caesar actually express any concrete plans to invade the West?

I'm sure there's some ideological yapping about the destruction of the NCR in his dialogue, but honestly I kind of doubt even Caesar would do it.

Besides, having the factions continue to be at each other's throat makes for a way more interesting story.

CT Phipps said:
Yeah, I think Caesar's Legion would be utterly pasted if not for the ridiculous series of bad luck rolls under Kimball.

* The Divide being destroyed
* Oliver's incompetence
* The Brotherhood of Steel battle at the solar energy farm
* The Great Khans fucking up things after Bitter Springs
* The Powder Gangers
* Two of House's gangs planning on betraying him, giving them a chance to royally screw NCR.

It's really a perfect storm of events to give them a fighting chance at Hoover Dam.
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Bad luck rolls, aka sheer incompetence.
 
This is more of a “What if”-scenario. What most forget is that the NCR is projecting power far away from its homeland, which is something no other wasteland power is able to. The legion can only enforce its will at its border, not hundreds of miles away.
 
CT Phipps said:
Yeah, I think Caesar's Legion would be utterly pasted if not for the ridiculous series of bad luck rolls under Kimball.

* The Divide being destroyed
* Oliver's incompetence
* The Brotherhood of Steel battle at the solar energy farm
* The Great Khans fucking up things after Bitter Springs
* The Powder Gangers
* Two of House's gangs planning on betraying him, giving them a chance to royally screw NCR.
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IDK about calling these "Bad Luck Rolls" - Most of these are either the Chickens coming home to roost for the NCR, or the result of active planning from the Legion

-The NCR's leadership being filled with psychotic glory hounds is portrayed as a structural issue, not an accidental one - Kimball himself is heavily implied to have his entire career based on expanding into this new province that clearly doesn't want the NCR there - Moreover Boone states that General Oliver himself got his position by being friends with the President, and that he suspects that if Kimball wasn't president, Hsu would be leading the NCR forces - Hell, half of the later NCR quests are done for Colonel Moore who straight up tells you to resolve everything in the most violent way possible - Actually making peace with former enemies - the one thing that would actually stop the NCR's overextension - Is something you have to actively work against Moore to achieve - Kinda the entire point of the NCR is that the entire upper leadership of the NCR are the worst possible people to handle the job.
-The NCR-Brotherhood war predates their occupation of the Mojave - And massively destabilised the NCR domestically, being partially the reason they're in the state they are now - Having run ins with old enemies isn't exactly a "Bad Luck roll"
-The Great Khans wanting revenge on the NCR for Bitter Springs is 100% the NCR's own fault for massacring pregnant women and children - And it's unlikely they'd be as suicidally attached to Legion had this not happened
-The Powder Gangers are again, 100% the NCR's fault: If you build a penal colony in a land you're trying to conquer, that penal colony rebels, and now causes issues for you - That's your own fault
-The Omertas blowing up the Monorail is mostly due to Legion infiltration, and making an alliance with them. The Frumentari doing covert actions to align themselves with enemies of the NCR, and carry out acts of terror is a large part of why the Legion is so successful. This isn't so much a Bad Luck Roll as the Legion being clever - The Chairmen are kinda irrelevant, since Benny hasn't messed with the NCR yet - And the White Gloves betrayal is again, because Caesar made active efforts to ally themselves with them.

The only one of these that's really a "Bad luck roll" is The Divide. The rest are mostly either the NCR's own actions or past coming back to haunt them - Or Legion being quite clever in their plans to take over the Mojave.
CT Phipps said:
Wouldn't all of those positions require them to be of a mindset different than child soldiers raised to believe Caesar is a god? A lot of cults suffer from losses when they have their people outside of the cult's direct media feed and bubble. The Frumentari in the Great Khans, for example, ends up exposing himself relatively easily.
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Isn't Karl openly acting as a Frumentari? Like he will straight up say that Caesar sent him - I don't think he's meant to be undercover.

Everything we see about the Frumentarii in game implies that when they are actually engaging in Espionage, they are extremely effective.
Apollyon said:
I'm sure there's some ideological yapping about the destruction of the NCR in his dialogue, but honestly I kind of doubt even Caesar would do it.
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Caesar believes he's a world historic figure and the fall of the NCR is inevitable. I think he 100% is stupid enough to try.
 
PaxVenire said:
Crimson Caravan and the Van Graffs would easily switch sides to the Legion were they to hold the blackmail of the caravan raids over their heads.
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Your whole post is really interesting and well thought out, but I wholesale disagree with this point. Both these suppliers would most likely be deemed too essential to war efforts to ever support the Legion or be weakened in any way, especially after the Hoover Dam falling. I get the distinct feeling that if these outfits dont toe the line and support the newly established presidents designs, nationalization would be the outcome.
 
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I agree with the opinion that post-New Vegas, the Legion isn't straight-out gunning for the NCR, and I think this is backed by Caesar's dialogue, about establishing Vegas as his new Rome, etc. Might straight out go for it in case the NCR's loss in the Mojave is bad enough that the NCR Military is broken. Or just chase the NCR out, take over whatever parts of Nevada he can, and let the NCR have a political shitstorm due to Kimball and Oliver's failures, while Caesar prepares for the final act.

Taking Clark County allows Caesar to threaten the rest of Nevada, both through Vegas and whatever parts of Utah he owns. I presume New Reno and Vault City would be his most likely targets. Which also allow Caesar to threaten the northern parts of the NCR in the future, such as Modoc, Klamath, Redding and Sac Town.

AFAIK According to Josh Sawyer, whoever wins in the Mojave, NCR or Legion-wise, will conquer the other.

He's definitively going for it, sooner or later, through. Caesar's final goal is to synthesize the NCR and the Legion, remember.
 
The Legion would still eventually fail because a bunch of barbaric, rampaging looters with no culture to speak of, whos only goal is to pillage and conquer, can't sustain itself. The Legion is just a big gang of raiders.
 
Jogre said:
Everything we see about the Frumentarii in game implies that when they are actually engaging in Espionage, they are extremely effective.
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On reflection - I think this is kinda underselling it.

Without the player's intervention, The Frumentarii have a spy at Camp McCarran (Hell a captain no less), have already made an alliance with the Khans, have already made an alliance with the Omertas and have plans to blow up the NCR Monorail, are arranging secret trade deals with the Van Graffs, are ready to kill the President.

What intelligence does the NCR have on the Legion? One captured Centurion? - Half the NCR's intelligence is straight up fabricated by Hanlon.
 
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