20th Anniversary of Chernobyl

[Sander]

You did not refute it. It is impossible to refute. The 20th century proved that state managed economies failed, from India to the USSR to Mitterand to every corner of the third world.

Wait, what? Communism is the cause of Chernobyl because state-managed economies fail? That's a nice twist of the argument, John.
And I could start spouting some western succesful economies, but you probably won't listen because you're still stuck in the 'managed economies are teh suck' train of thought.

Most tyrants don't until they take power. Liberal Democracy provides checks and balances for that, a balance that is impossible to maintain without freedom from the State.

Godwin! 1932 proves you wrong.

 

[Abel_II]

Sander,
I spelled out why Communisim played a factor in Chernobyl. I can site references if you like.

Both the US and Russia were in a competition to build Nuclear Reactors. The diffrence is if a worker in the US thought that things were moving to fast and becoming unsafe they could go to the press and report it. The press could then run the story.

In a communist nation the worker may try to go to the press. The press could not run the story cause the censors would chop it to hell.

Again it was just one of the factors.

Sure the US has accidents as well. One thing though about 3 Mile Island accident the Reactor structure remained intact. Chernobyl reactor 4 structure was not up to par with others. Diffrent material was used in order to speed up construction.

 

[Wooz]

FYI, reactor 4 blew up during an experiment, due to the fact that the plant's personnel didn't stick to procedures and shut off most of the safeguard security systems, and because of the flawed design of the control rods in the RBMK-type reactor.

I fail to see what Communism has to do with careless technicians and an engineering flaw in the reactor design.

 

[Abel_II]

Wooz,

The major factors in the accident happened during the test. The most significant of those would be the reactor becoming unstable durring low power outputs.

Things such as the structure not being able to contain the explosion due to the materials used during construction did have an effect in the overall disaster.

It was also the same mentality that push the test through in the first place. These guys wanted to get promoted so they accepted the risky test that other stations turned down.

 

[John Uskglass]

Godwin! 1932 proves you wrong.

You mean 1933?

Weimar gave an emergency clause to the Executive which allowed him to do whatever the fuck he wanted when he saw it nessicary. As far as Liberal Democracies go, it was somewhere between Pakistan and modern Russia.

Wait, what? Communism is the cause of Chernobyl because state-managed economies fail? That's a nice twist of the argument, John.

If the Russian economy was effictivley managed there would have been no massive disaster at Chernobyl. The plant was shittily made (because of the Soviet economy) and poorly run (ditto). If it was just the first, it would have been Three Mile Island instead.

 

[Sander]

You mean 1933?

Weimar gave an emergency clause to the Executive which allowed him to do whatever the fuck he wanted when he saw it nessicary.

Martial Law, basically. Executive Power and all that, I believe the USA has something like that in place as well. Regardless, he came to power through fully democratic means.

As far as Liberal Democracies go, it was somewhere between Pakistan and modern Russia.

That's a bit overblown, it was a full-fledged democracy, where Hitler gained enough support in the parliament to instate himself as dictator and change the constitution. Such a thing could happen in any democratic country in the world right now, really. So, no, a liberal democracy does not prevent a dictatorship from happening. It may make it a bit harder, though.

If the Russian economy was effictivley managed there would have been no massive disaster at Chernobyl. The plant was shittily made (because of the Soviet economy) and poorly run (ditto). If it was just the first, it would have been Three Mile Island instead.

That's more to do with the way in which the whole USSR was run than with state managed economies in general, though, as there are plenty of nuclear plants in your despised Welfare Economies.

 

[Abel_II]

There is an old term in buisness.


You want it Good, Fast, or Cheap?

You can have good but it won't be fast and cheap.
You can have cheap but it won't be fast and good.
You can have fast but it won't be cheap or good.

They wanted the reactor fast. You can chalk that up to politics, but where the communism part comes into play the most is that it was hard for someone to speak up and say that its going too fast.

The people that did try to speak up, publish information out about the dangers of that type of reactor were censored. Gegori Medvedev tried to publish several stories about the dangers of the reactors years before Chernobyl occured. They were all censored. His book after the accident was to be highly censored as well. Thankfully, it was finally published.

 

[John Uskglass]

Martial Law, basically. Executive Power and all that, I believe the USA has something like that in place as well. Regardless, he came to power through fully democratic means.

Martial Law is rule of the military, and it requires permission of the other branches of government to work, and it is only used in cases of extreme violence. The President does not have the same powers as the powers of the Weimar President, considering that he had the power to
A) Say fuck you and bye bye to the Chancellor
B) Appoint a Chancellor
There is a reason he was called the "Replacement Kaiser".

That's a bit overblown, it was a full-fledged democracy, where Hitler gained enough support in the parliament to instate himself as dictator and change the constitution. Such a thing could happen in any democratic country in the world right now, really. So, no, a liberal democracy does not prevent a dictatorship from happening. It may make it a bit harder, though.

Could, yes, will, no. Proportional representation mixed with fractured small party politics and Semi-presidential systems tend to be things of the past in established democracies, thus they simply cannot have groups like the NSDAP get into the system and start fucking it up.

That's more to do with the way in which the whole USSR was run than with state managed economies in general, though, as there are plenty of nuclear plants in your despised Welfare Economies.

WTF? I mean the State controlling 70-90% of GDP, not a Welfare State.

 

[Duckman]

Communism doesn't/didn't kill people, people do.

 

[John Uskglass]

Communism doesn't/didn't kill people, people do.

No 'capitalist' country has ever killed 70, 50, 30, 20 or 10 million people as part of an ideological crusade.

 

[Duckman]

But it wasn't the government who killed millions, it was the lunatics in charge on their power trips that killed those millions.

Communism, outside of Russia, hasn't had the same drastic murederous effect. Sure, there have been a few tyrants who killed people, but that has happened in other capitalist countries.

Look at Hitler, he was no Communist, but a Fascist, quite the opposite to Communism, and need I remind you of how many people he killed?

 

[Sander]

Martial Law is rule of the military, and it requires permission of the other branches of government to work, and it is only used in cases of extreme violence. The President does not have the same powers as the powers of the Weimar President, considering that he had the power to
A) Say fuck you and bye bye to the Chancellor
B) Appoint a Chancellor
There is a reason he was called the "Replacement Kaiser".

Oh, I know that. The point is that it's still possible, I'm not privy to the very details of the constiution, but constitutions can be changed.
Not that it's likely to happen, but a liberal democracy doesn't ouright prevent such a thing from happening.

Could, yes, will, no. Proportional representation mixed with fractured small party politics and Semi-presidential systems tend to be things of the past in established democracies, thus they simply cannot have groups like the NSDAP get into the system and start fucking it up.

In the case of the USA it's harder than usual due to its (effectively) two-party system, yes. But don't forget that the NSDAP went from zilch to 33% in just a couple of years.
Although that did teach the world to be a bit more paranoid when it comes to big parties.

WTF? I mean the State controlling 70-90% of GDP, not a Welfare State.

Ah, you meant that. Then why the mention of Mitterand? That wasn't that much of a state-controlled economy, no more than Denmark or most European welfare states.

No 'capitalist' country has ever killed 70, 50, 30, 20 or 10 million people as part of an ideological crusade.

Well, those weren't really ideological crusades (well, except for Mao's idiocy), more power-mad maniacs.
But capitalism has caused some atrocities as well, Argentina comes to mind, for instance.

 

[Wooz]

Wooz,

The major factors in the accident happened during the test. The most significant of those would be the reactor becoming unstable durring low power outputs.

Things such as the structure not being able to contain the explosion due to the materials used during construction did have an effect in the overall disaster.

What a load of bullshit.

The reactor wasn't "unstable". It had too many control rods removed during the test, due to the technicians' incompetence. Incompetence isn't something exclusively Communist. The minimum number of rods allowed was 15, and the test was made with 11. When shit started to hit the fan, the techs weren't able to introduce more graphite rods as the thing had jammed, after overheating.

Materials have fuck-all to do with this, it was, as I wrote earlier, AN ENGINEERING FLAW. Nobody builds nuclear powerplants with sticks and stones, even in Soviet Russia.

It was also the same mentality that push the test through in the first place. These guys wanted to get promoted so they accepted the risky test that other stations turned down.

Brilliant conclusion. Too bad it hasn't got any logic arguments nor facts behind it, and leads people to believe you pulled it out of your ass.

 

[monsharen]

The minimum number of rods allowed was 15.(...)the techs weren't able to introduce more graphite rods as the thing had jammed. When shit started to hit the fan(...)you pulled it out of your ass.

aww... the vision...

 

[Wooz]