So what... Now You're all gonna troll me and lean towards Quai-gon / Vali's questionable ideas on this matter?
EDIT:
Oh.. Yeah..
peppering my head with ashes....
EDIT:
Oh.. Yeah..
peppering my head with ashes....
About the Fast Shot trait effects
- Thread starter NovaRain
- Start date
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
Is it possible to make miniguns use an integer percentage of AP?—basically all of it; whatever the amount it is... or... just have using the minigun end the turn.
This would seem to allow movement then fire, but not fire then movement; should still require the minimum AP to fire though.
The reason being to allow PCs to use the minigun without exorbitant modified AP cost, yet still be able to move or access inventory, but have the minigun burn up all their time once used.
This would seem to allow movement then fire, but not fire then movement; should still require the minimum AP to fire though.
The reason being to allow PCs to use the minigun without exorbitant modified AP cost, yet still be able to move or access inventory, but have the minigun burn up all their time once used.
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Vali
Redeemer
I dont think that is possible a minigun use a percentage of AP.
But change them need more ap would work, i think 8 ap so with fast shot 7 ,and with bonus rate of fire 6.
For other weapons the same give them more ap need.
I think that fast shot shouldn't be given a minimum of 2 action points.
My reason being: An average pistol shot should take in RL like 2 seconds? 1.5 seconds?
Well, check this out.
This guy shoots 8 times in 1.06 seconds, and shoots 6 + reload + 6 in 2.99 seconds. So it is possible to shoot 12 shots without reload - 1.06*(12/8) < 2.
It is true that some weapons, lets say minigun, can't possibly fire at the same speed (per action).
Therefore, I think individual weapons should be limited to a minimum AP use through the APcost function (or, another, more efficient way.).
I know that this is an extreme example, but so is that 12 shots situation. It can only happen if u have AG 10, 2 action boys perk, fast shot, bonus rate of fire, and a fast weapon to begin with, which makes it an extreme (and very gamey, since u pretty much have to know in advance that this option is even possible and make all the right choices to achieve this.) example as well.
My reason being: An average pistol shot should take in RL like 2 seconds? 1.5 seconds?
Well, check this out.
This guy shoots 8 times in 1.06 seconds, and shoots 6 + reload + 6 in 2.99 seconds. So it is possible to shoot 12 shots without reload - 1.06*(12/8) < 2.
It is true that some weapons, lets say minigun, can't possibly fire at the same speed (per action).
Therefore, I think individual weapons should be limited to a minimum AP use through the APcost function (or, another, more efficient way.).
I know that this is an extreme example, but so is that 12 shots situation. It can only happen if u have AG 10, 2 action boys perk, fast shot, bonus rate of fire, and a fast weapon to begin with, which makes it an extreme (and very gamey, since u pretty much have to know in advance that this option is even possible and make all the right choices to achieve this.) example as well.
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You aught not to go down the road of whats realistic, because if you get into the argument of realism, there are so many other realism inconsistencies in fallout that... where do you begin and where do you stop.
The way to go about this should be from the perspective of game design. Fallout has a slight card game philosophy (or whatever you wanna call it), and I think its fair to stay true to that as a point of game design. The most important element of any game is balance.
People may argue "but, this is how I've been doing it", well you've been doing it that way cause the game dictated that you do it that way, because of its balance problems. If the game was properly balanced all aspects of the game would be equally usable and appreciable, which is not the case in fallout by default; A clear sign of game design and balance problem. Example is throwing, traps, repair, etc.
the way to fix throwing is not to keep a 1ap flare strategy, its to actually fix the uselessness of throwing in the game by addressing the actual weapons and their effectiveness.
The point of this fix is indeed balance. Why should I lose aimed unarmed shots if I am not any faster?
This whole subject is about game design, its about design philosophy, its about definitions, its about what it even means to have a concept in a game, and what its purpose is suppose to be. Game designers need to resolve these things before they put out a game. Well fallout devs didn't. So we have to.
definition of what fast shot is supposed to be is at the heart of the problem here. You have to decide that first.
I think my suggestion for multiple fixes that are tiered is a very reasonable and fair one, I don't see how it doesn't meet everyone's need.
The way to go about this should be from the perspective of game design. Fallout has a slight card game philosophy (or whatever you wanna call it), and I think its fair to stay true to that as a point of game design. The most important element of any game is balance.
People may argue "but, this is how I've been doing it", well you've been doing it that way cause the game dictated that you do it that way, because of its balance problems. If the game was properly balanced all aspects of the game would be equally usable and appreciable, which is not the case in fallout by default; A clear sign of game design and balance problem. Example is throwing, traps, repair, etc.
the way to fix throwing is not to keep a 1ap flare strategy, its to actually fix the uselessness of throwing in the game by addressing the actual weapons and their effectiveness.
The point of this fix is indeed balance. Why should I lose aimed unarmed shots if I am not any faster?
This whole subject is about game design, its about design philosophy, its about definitions, its about what it even means to have a concept in a game, and what its purpose is suppose to be. Game designers need to resolve these things before they put out a game. Well fallout devs didn't. So we have to.
definition of what fast shot is supposed to be is at the heart of the problem here. You have to decide that first.
I think my suggestion for multiple fixes that are tiered is a very reasonable and fair one, I don't see how it doesn't meet everyone's need.
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
Fast shot is aiming from the hip at whatever they perceive as a target. They don't carefully aim, they just point the weapon at it. The trade off is less AP cost in lieu of aimed shot effects.
Honestly I don't see why this would not apply to thrown, melee, and unarmed; nor why it does not come with an accuracy penalty.
**As for opinion of the skills in the game, I see nothing wrong with them. They are player developed—by choice, and each improve that named special ability.
Honestly I don't see why this would not apply to thrown, melee, and unarmed; nor why it does not come with an accuracy penalty.
**As for opinion of the skills in the game, I see nothing wrong with them. They are player developed—by choice, and each improve that named special ability.
It's a trait that only affects weapons. A trait that affects unarmed builds is Bruiser or Heavy Handed. Take that instead if you want to play an effective unarmed build.
Vali
Redeemer
In Arcanum there was a machingun, it have single shot only but a shot cost 1 ap, this stands for how fast this shot.
But this will be difficult in Fallout, only when the powerful weapons will be limited and only find in middle game or so.
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
Oh there is no argument here; I know the traits, but I wouldn't mind if they had allowed it to apply to thrown rocks, knives, grenades, and HtH...though I bet grenades were a factor in not applying it to thrown weapons.
*They were saying something about 12 attacks per round?
This guy threw 18 punches in ½ a round.
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A Power Fist is still a weapon though. And so is any other unarmed weapon in the game, with the exception of bare fists and kicks...
The Power Fist even consume ammunition.
For example, the One-Handed Trait also mention weapons:
The image is also the Vault Boy using a pistol. But it still applies to melee and unarmed weapons too.
You have a point there.A Power Fist is still a weapon though. And so is any other unarmed weapon in the game, with the exception of bare fists and kicks...
The Power Fist even consume ammunition.
For example, the One-Handed Trait also mention weapons:
The image is also the Vault Boy using a pistol. But it still applies to melee and unarmed weapons too.
Those 18 punches were weaksauce it took this much punches to put that guy to the ground. You can't do a series of quick punches, and expect them to be as strong as a boxer punch.
Those hymalayan mokns are only fast.. and that's it. Their strength was put to test in caged MMA fights first time around 1998 in Pride federation in Japan. (All fighters always moped the floor with theese monks).
And yes I do remember times when the word "Pride" ment beefy bruisers wanting to hurt each other, not a bunch of parading homosexuals.
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
This is a given.
But still on the hypothetical Fast Shot application, even if the punches did one point of damage, it would allow the PC [especially the AWARE PC] the ability to do precise damage to multiple adjacent targets. If those targets were armed, but almost dead, it could mean surviving a round with three firearm attacks awaiting the end of the PC's turn.
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And yet it could still only be applied by shaolin masters, so it's a unarmed 150% and lvl 15 perk rather than fast shot triat I'd say.
edit besides those 12x 1HP attacks turn into serious damage with 3x Bonus HtH damage, and slayer, which on the other hand does guarateed critical hit (so it's only a matter of geting Slayer req. stats for the moment you get the perk to spam crits like crazy). Still OP I must say.
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still the level of 1ap/attack like Mr.Pistorlero should not be considered, since this guy is one on a billion, and has devoted whole his life to the speedfiring training. It would equal to at least 200% Small Guns skill.
edit besides those 12x 1HP attacks turn into serious damage with 3x Bonus HtH damage, and slayer, which on the other hand does guarateed critical hit (so it's only a matter of geting Slayer req. stats for the moment you get the perk to spam crits like crazy). Still OP I must say.
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still the level of 1ap/attack like Mr.Pistorlero should not be considered, since this guy is one on a billion, and has devoted whole his life to the speedfiring training. It would equal to at least 200% Small Guns skill.
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Vali
Redeemer
When the player character holster his weapon he do it fast. You can say that your character is not like other in fallout 1, he is trained in vault and maybe the vault dweller trained the arroyo people, but they dont like to use gun so they use primitive weapons.
I personally like to play the game as a billy the kid with 44. magnum revolver.
But big guns and energy weapons dont be affected by this would better.
I think a dude with the particular AG 10, fast shot... specifications is also one in a billion. It is pretty extreme, and highly unlikely to reach this spec in your first walkthrough. Most RPGs first time players will probably not spend 10 points on agility. In fallout, yeah, it can be a good and viable choice(with gifted and LK/CH = 2, right?), but AG 10 is already 1 in 100 at least. Plus, he is the chosen one!
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