Am I missing something, or is combat really this awful?

[golfmade]

Well, just left the vault as I've not had much time to play it yet (will get to it this weekend) but yeah, can bash people's heads in in the vault and they don't defend themselves, and what's with the blood splatter, it's way too much and looks awful.

As an aside though you can use Z to move the bodies around, and even lift them up into the air, pretty fun to knock someone out who is unkillable and just lift them up and pretend like you'll body slam them.

But I still hate the fact that they act like nothing happened.... what did my blows to their body inflict amnesia and they forgot that not 5 minutes ago I was trying to kill them?

 

[Ausdoerrt]

...What? Stats DO affect hit chance. It's not a true FPS. Now, obviously if you're aiming at the sun you're going hit nothing but air. But if you have your crosshair on or near the enemy, it's affected by stats.

I have yet to see a an autokill for headshots but I shot a super mutant in the arm and he dropped his gun and moved towards me. The only thing I'm disappointed with combat is I've crippled legs and the buggers still move.

Well, I'm getting 90% and above for headshot chance with 30 in small guns for any middle-range to close distance. There could be two reasons: the stats don't affect the hit chance too much, or the numbers shown are nothing but bogus. Bad either way.

 

[TheFlyingBuddha]

...What? Stats DO affect hit chance. It's not a true FPS. Now, obviously if you're aiming at the sun you're going hit nothing but air. But if you have your crosshair on or near the enemy, it's affected by stats.

I have yet to see a an autokill for headshots but I shot a super mutant in the arm and he dropped his gun and moved towards me. The only thing I'm disappointed with combat is I've crippled legs and the buggers still move.

When in real time, stats don't affect hit chance or accuracy. They DO however affect damage. That's why headshots feel weak. There is a comment from waaaaaay back from one of the devs about how they played with a system where stats affected miss chance but it "didn't feel fun" aka when people who are used to shooters miss they don't understand and get pissed. At least I'm fairly certain there was such a comment. Hopefully the mechanics for accuracy will be readily modded and accuracy deviation can be put back in and damage nerfing removed. That way when your headshot lands, it'll feel like a damn headshot.

In VATS it's a totally different story, I think. With stats mattering more. I'm not so sure the hit numbers are bogus, it probably just feels different because you're firing off all the shots rapidly, whereas in a turn based game when you had 30% chance to hit you were doing them one at a time and noticing each miss.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

In VATS it's a totally different story, I think. With stats mattering more. I'm not so sure the hit numbers are bogus, it probably just feels different because you're firing off all the shots rapidly, whereas in a turn based game when you had 30% chance to hit you were doing them one at a time and noticing each miss.

At first, i didn't figure out you could do multiple shots, so I'd be doing them one at a time. 50% feels more like 80%, and you rarely even get that low, unless the enemy is hiding behind the wall or sth.

 

[qi]

I've had the worst luck hitting an enemy in VATS while they're super-close. My character will lift his weapon, aim carefully down the sights - and shoot right above their shoulder, into the walls and halls beyond.

the poopy of it all, i do declare

 

[golfmade]

I like to think of VATS as in game binoculars. Just as soon as I left the vault rather than heading down and to the right down the road I climbed up behind the vault to the left and found the bridge, saw some guys on the bridge and brought up VATS and bam, could instanstly see what they looked like.

 

[Doolan]

Oddly enough, my gripe is the opposite. I get a lot of misses in VATS, especially with energy weapons (I'm not exactly well trained in them) but it's easy to hit in real time if you use RMB for aiming and place your crosshair centered on what you want to hit.

Even with less than 20 points in energy weapons it's not that hard to hit a super mutant in the head in real time from afar.

In VATS, the difference is clear though. Since I got "gunslinger", I never, ever miss when I use pistols.

It's the real-time part that's pretty broken, plus melee weapons in both systems (they are pretty awful to use)

One thing I do like is how VATS alters the chance to hit based on how much a given part of the body is exposed. Good use of the 3D engine there.

Still, I would kill for groin shots, and hope that will be modded eventually.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Even with less than 20 points in energy weapons it's not that hard to hit a super mutant in the head in real time from afar.

Stats don't affect RT combat hit chance.

 

[Doolan]

I know, my point was that they affect VATS pretty dramatically, and that people getting hits consistently at 15% chance are just getting lucky, at least on my end.

It's the RT part that is flawed, since skill means nothing whatsoever in it.

 

[Kashrlyyk]

Even with less than 20 points in energy weapons it's not that hard to hit a super mutant in the head in real time from afar.

Stats don't affect RT combat hit chance.

Can you link to the quote?

Well, I'm getting 90% and above for headshot chance with 30 in small guns for any middle-range to close distance. There could be two reasons: the stats don't affect the hit chance too much, or the numbers shown are nothing but bogus. Bad either way.

In Fallout Tactics with Per 10, AG 10 and 45% in Small Weapons max accuracy is 31% against head with a hunting rifle. Same stats but a MP 5 H&K 59% against head standing right next to the target. It increases to 80% accuracy with 65% in Small Weapons.

I just watched the 32 headshot video again and he barely misses with 42 in small weapons and he has a 86% chance to hit the head in VATS standing right next to the target. He made another video (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=8iHjfVYbgIU&feature=related) where he uses a better weapon and increases small weapons to 60. His accuracy in VATS doesn´t increase, stays at ~86%.

 

[DForge]

And how many head shots with 10mm it took to take down a gyy with a freaking leather armor (say, Metzger) in original fallouts? If you didn't score criticals, it'd be 5-8 shots anyway. Fallout 2 didn't use the system of weapon damage, so if it was there, and you'd use a weapon in pitiful condition, you'd score about 20 non-critical hits to head before killing him too, I believe.

Perhaps the guy barely misses because he's at point blank range, where it doesn't really matter what skill with guns you have, in real life I mean? I always laughed at original fallouts' system that made hitting an unarmored (or dressed in leather) person standing three steps away from me in the head impossible with a poor skill. And how can you miss with entire minigun burst from two meters?

I am not defending F3 idiocy here but don't forget that F1&F2 were also flawed in combat in their own ways. Some guys praise those (great) titles too much and forget that they weren't flawless, especially in game mechanics. I am a big fan of previous Fallouts but I am a lot more open minded than most fanboys, I believe

 

[Kashrlyyk]

....

Perhaps the guy barely misses because he's at point blank range, where it doesn't really matter what skill with guns you have, in real life I mean? ...

The combat system, even the FPS part, is supposed to depend on your stats. That includes hitting.

And how can you miss with entire minigun burst from two meters?

Achoo!Hatschi!

Gesundheit!

 

[banshee911]

Animal friend is the best perk. Why? Less combat, more exploring.

 

[TheFlyingBuddha]

The combat system, even the FPS part, is supposed to depend on your stats. That includes hitting.

Here is where Emil discusses how they "dialed back" the accuracy penalty. He claims it it still there, but I personally have a feeling it was nerfed almost completely, especially given the ability to aim with RMB. Yes, you still see some deviation, but not nearly as much as you should.

The other point to keep in mind with accuracy is skills are only going up to 100. In FO(2) they went up to 300 because there was a system of interacting penalties (armor class, range, lighting, etc). With the use of an FPS system, only range still applies, and again, they nerfed the perceived effect of your skill on shot deviation. As soon as we see mod tools it'll probably be back in.[/url]

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Can you link to the quote?

Read reviews, forums, play the game. It's kinda obvious. If they indeed do, then it's not dramatic and does not affect gameplay even a bit.

Well, I'm getting 90% and above for headshot chance with 30 in small guns for any middle-range to close distance. There could be two reasons: the stats don't affect the hit chance too much, or the numbers shown are nothing but bogus. Bad either way.

In Fallout Tactics with Per 10, AG 10 and 45% in Small Weapons max accuracy is 31% against head with a hunting rifle. Same stats but a MP 5 H&K 59% against head standing right next to the target. It increases to 80% accuracy with 65% in Small Weapons.

I just watched the 32 headshot video again and he barely misses with 42 in small weapons and he has a 86% chance to hit the head in VATS standing right next to the target. He made another video (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=8iHjfVYbgIU&feature=related) where he uses a better weapon and increases small weapons to 60. His accuracy in VATS doesn´t increase, stays at ~86%.

Thanks, finally something solid to add to the argument. I guess I was right when I said that the hit chance is not affected by traits.

The other point to keep in mind with accuracy is skills are only going up to 100. In FO(2) they went up to 300 because there was a system of interacting penalties (armor class, range, lighting, etc). With the use of an FPS system, only range still applies, and again, they nerfed the perceived effect of your skill on shot deviation. As soon as we see mod tools it'll probably be back in.[/url]

100 is max? Well, all I can say is WOW, because then it means that tagged skills start at about 1/3 of max, and it would only take 3-4 levels to be GOD in, say, small guns.

 

[TheFlyingBuddha]

Well, the thing is if you're just maxing out the combat skill, there are still a lot of other factors that will limit your effectiveness. Namely the quality of weaponry, both in terms of actual weapons and the ability to keep them maintained. It doesn't do a ton of good to max out small guns but always be using guns that at at 49% or lower condition, because you haven't bothered to put any points into repair.

In my current game, I'm a fairly smart character, I think INT 8 off the top of my head. I've just hit level 10, and I only maxed out my tags just recently, and this is including having taken 6 relevant perks for a bonus of 15% to each of them. Will I likely be able to max out another two skills by the end of the game? Probably, but that's not that different than taking Tag! in FO(2). Granted, you never really maxed out skills in those games, but again, that was because they were being used in a more standard RPG where the philosophy of difficulty is generally just keep ramping up ACs, ranges, etc.

 

[Kashrlyyk]

Well, the thing is if you're just maxing out the combat skill, there are still a lot of other factors that will limit your effectiveness. Namely the quality of weaponry, both in terms of actual weapons and the ability to keep them maintained.

Then just increase Repair and Small Weapons equally. So you constantly fight better and get better guns by repairing them.
How many books about Small Weapons and Repair are there?

It doesn't do a ton of good to max out small guns but always be using guns that at at 49% or lower condition, because you haven't bothered to put any points into repair.

You don´t need max small weapons. 86% chance to hit with 42 in small weapons. So 42 should last a few level ups before it should be increased further. But I don´t know if you have to assign all the points when you level up or if you can save them for when you actually need them.
Someone else on this forum has said, that going from 77 to 100 in small weapons didn´t do much. But I can´t find the quote right now.

In my current game, I'm a fairly smart character, I think INT 8 off the top of my head. I've just hit level 10, and I only maxed out my tags just recently, and this is including having taken 6 relevant perks for a bonus of 15% to each of them.

Did you use the bobbleheads too?

Will I likely be able to max out another two skills by the end of the game? Probably, but that's not that different than taking Tag! in FO(2). ....

Raising your tagged weapon skill to 180 is really expensive! My Fallout Tactics character has put all her points of her 20 level ups into her three tagged skills and read Traps books to get it to 133. Barter the last tagged skill is at 76. This is completly gone in Fallout 3. But there is enough of that in the "leveling guide".

And thanks for the link.

 

[TheFlyingBuddha]

Then just increase Repair and Small Weapons equally. So you constantly fight better and get better guns by repairing them.
How many books about Small Weapons and Repair are there?

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You don´t need max small weapons. 86% chance to hit with 42 in small weapons. So 42 should last a few level ups before it should be increased further. But I don´t know if you have to assign all the points when you level up or if you can save them for when you actually need them.
Someone else on this forum has said, that going from 77 to 100 in small weapons didn´t do much. But I can´t find the quote right now.
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Did you use the bobbleheads too?
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Raising your tagged weapon skill to 180 is really expensive! My Fallout Tactics character has put all her points of her 20 level ups into her three tagged skills and read Traps books to get it to 133. Barter the last tagged skill is at 76. This is completly gone in Fallout 3. But there is enough of that in the "leveling guide".

Okay, answers, in order:
My point wasn't that you shouldn't raise skills equally, my point was if you simply 'OMG MAX OUT' guns at low levels your damage effectiveness (because remember, hitting isn't everything in Beth's setup, because skills affect damage) is still going to be limited by other factors.

On my travels, I did not find a ton of skill books, and they only increase 1 point per use. I never noticed them for sale.
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Again, my comment on maxing the stat was a response to the idea that you could be "god-like" just by maxing out guns fast. Using energy weapons, I certainly noticed an improvement in both accuracy and damage after getting a quick 15 point (5 skill, 10 perk) increase, so I highly doubt going from 77 to 100 wouldn't provide the same for guns.
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The only bobbleheads I found were the medicine one, and the energy weapons one (after I had maxed it, so it did no good).
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I just finished the game at lvl 17 this morning, and had managed to max out 4 skills. While I admit you do get better at more skills than you would in previous games, I don't think this game simply hands you the ability to be the everyman like Oblivion did as some people have complained.

I could have taken different perks and thus taken much longer to get my tags maxed out. By end game, I still couldn't open most of the locks I came across, I still couldn't sneak for crap, still couldn't use any weapons but energy effectively. I was better at combat that I would have expected based on my character concept thanks to the energy weapons, but that's about it.