Fallout 2 mod Balancing CH combat effect and barter

Timez

First time out of the vault
Creating separate discussion thread as I am working on fairer game experience.

CH combat effect

Most of the primary stats have perceivable influence on a game except CH that was used for dialog checks only in FO1. FO2 fixed it somewhat making it controlling party size. Generally speaking party size should have tremendous impact. However, people still disregard it as end game player in APA is a tank crushing everything in their way with or without party members help. I am thinking to add more value to it.

My first thought is to make combat slightly more unforgiving and player combat progress more smooth so that people experience about same combat challenge throughout the game. Then probably balance it in a way that party size should really matter in average combat. Fighting alone should be practically unpassable against gradually increasing encounters throughout the game forcing player to more grinding and lagging behind in the game unable to visit already discovered but yet too challenging areas. Whereas having party of six should be relatively not challenging.
Early game stage is already like that when one cannot pass Toxic Caves without Sulik. End game needs further tweaking.

Second though is to let CH affect actual combat in some way. Since stat naming is quite arbitrary and more or less generic (they just want to spell SPECIAL with it) I assume that charisma represent any kind of psychological influence. That may also mean leadership ability to inspire army in battle. Or it could mean fierce and merciless fighter fame paralyzing opponent with fear and despair. From one hand it may affect party combat abilities both way: AP, damage, accuracy, DR. With higher CH improving and lower CH worsening these stats. From the other hand it could affect foes with higher CH making them randomly flee or skip turns in hesitation to attack such mighty leader. Whereas low CH should increase their AP making them eager to attack.

The effect should not be too drastic as bigger party size is already a big bonus. From the other side, party size may be unlimited but then CH battlefield effect should be game changing.

Barter

As it is implemented now barter has zero value. Regardless of low prices loot flow from random encounters is unlimited. Lowering prices leads just to increased grinding.

I am thinking disabling loot from random encounters. This way the free flow of items will be significantly limited and player would cherish every item they buy or sell. Barter will become and extremely important skill as it would define player and party equipment level.

Another option is to make items (armor/weapon) break randomly forcing player to repurchase them and again adjusting equipment to barter skill.

Another option is to inflate prices the more player buy stuff making it more and more difficult to equip.

Another option is to adjust loot worth to wearers combat abilities so better loot will be much more difficult to acquire.
 
Love the idea of CH influencing stats, especially the idea that a low CHA could actually provide a companion stat malus. Not super sure about disabling random loot though - I know some veteran players - like most of us here, I guess, in late 2021 - who really like the idea of nipping down to San Fran or even just the Reno area for a decent gun and then carrying on with their lives/games, without having to murder shopkeepers in the Den (which I do anyway, but that's more out of principle than anything else).

I do also really like what you've done with Fairer, the minimum strength thing. Not that it changes much with regard to barter - I'm just slightly worried it'll be too much in one game if you throw in breakage as well. Would be annoying if unique-ish guns like the XL or the Mauser broke, too.

Just a couple of groggy morning thoughts - take em with a grain of salt.
 
Although not called Charisma, the Leadership skill in the old Heroes of Might and Magic games randomly allowed a group of soldiers to attack twice.

D&D used Charisma both for the limit of hirelings and their morale.

But yeah, it seems like most games just use it for interaction purposes.
 
Not super sure about disabling random loot though - I know some veteran players - like most of us here, I guess, in late 2021 - who really like the idea of nipping down to San Fran or even just the Reno area for a decent gun and then carrying on with their lives/games, without having to murder shopkeepers in the Den (which I do anyway, but that's more out of principle than anything else).

Not following you here. What random encounters loot has to do with SF?

I do also really like what you've done with Fairer, the minimum strength thing. Not that it changes much with regard to barter - I'm just slightly worried it'll be too much in one game if you throw in breakage as well. Would be annoying if unique-ish guns like the XL or the Mauser broke, too.

Agree that any modification may require rebalance in some other area. Min ST is not directly related to barter that is why I did not mention it in this thread.
Barter is difficult to balance perfectly just because people can go in wastes and harvest more loot. From the other side, EcCo did pretty good job on it in the way that money do not run over the roof IF player does not do purposeful harvest expeditions.
 
Not following you here. What random encounters loot has to do with SF?

Find a Hubologist encounter, steal plasma grenade, plant it on someone near the middle, harvest equipment, profit! That money is also a good way to ensure you can buy enough stimpacks to last you on a trip back north and beyond.

Haven't had a chance to try EcCo yet, sadly.
 
Interesting ideas.

Van Buren was going to allow some degree of player control of party members using the Speech Skill, if I remember right. SFall has an option that allows player control of CNPCs, perhaps something can be done with it, programming-wise, that allows for a stat-influenced control? I'm thinking it would't be 100% control all the time, more like temporarily controlling a party member among many.

I think another possibility is using your CH to make party members "git gud". Essentially, use CH to implement special "training" dialogues. This could also be a way to "balance" the party members - as it is, Sulik, Vic, Cassidy and Marcus are unambiguously superior companions to the rest of them. Lenny, Miria, Davin, Myron, Goris, Skynet and the dogs are just inferior. Essentially, you tell them to "git gud" - probably not necessary with Goris and Skynet who are perfectly skilled and powerful (they just need more resistances, and Goris might need a combat setting that ins't "LEEEROY JENKINS!!" before Leeroy Jenkins), but Lenny, Miria, Davin and Myron just suck for the most part.

Another way would be to have higher CH "enable" extra levels of CNPCs, or new perks which help NPCs and make them stronger.


I am thinking disabling loot from random encounters. This way the free flow of items will be significantly limited and player would cherish every item they buy or sell. Barter will become and extremely important skill as it would define player and party equipment level.

Taking another idea from Van Buren, you could also limit the numbers of certain random encounters. Van Buren was going to limit certain encounters, generally the ones with people, to repeat only X times (if you kill them, that is). So you couldn't say, kill three Blackfoot parties and meet a fourth. Van Buren's world was supposed to be a pretty desolate place.

So you can't say, just roam around Den farming slavers, robbers and highwaymen forever - at some point, these people will either run out, or they will realize you are a badass and better to stay away. A limit like 5 might be reasonable. If you don't kill them, they pop up again.

I would make an exception for a few encounters. Enclave Patrols and the Bounty Hunters. The former because they are the strongest encounter in the game, and the latter because Bounty Hunters are pretty much a punishment for super evil players. Remnants of the Master's Army are a pretty fuck-you-ish encounter, too.
 
Yes. Reducing easy encounter probability is another thing to do it. Actually, may just scale encounter types to the player current level. Don't offer anything that is too easy.
 
Yes. Reducing easy encounter probability is another thing to do it. Actually, may just scale encounter types to the player current level. Don't offer anything that is too easy.

Scaling encounters has to be a bit careful, but could work. One bad effect is that it might punish players for over-levelling - especially important when you consider the Restoration Project and its extra quests.

But yeah, limiting most encounters is the way to go. Just keep animal encounters infinite, because the player rarely gets loot from those - fighting Geckos is the one exception. So while they do give XP, they spend ammo and drugs.


I've been browsing older mods and turns out Mechanics Overhaul has a really cool change that reminds of what you and @Slaughter Manslaught are discussing:



This is interesting, and honestly makes far more sense than the Gambling Skill (FNV does fine with just luck).

Just skill points, tho? Would be interesting to see more advantages to this.
 
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