Bethesda is doing the right thing with fallout 3...

Oddball_E8

Oddball_E8

First time out of the vault
at least from a marketing standpoint...


im one of those "true fans" of fallout 1 and 2.
you know... the kind that probarbly wont buy this game (unless i find it in the bargain bin).

we all heard it before... the reasons why i wouldnt by it i mean

however, i must say that beth is doing the right thing from a pure marketing standpoint...

if you made fallout 2 today (but better looking of course) it wouldnt sell...

first off, the age rating would limit sales (especially since it doesnt have the "gangsta" appeal of GTA to lure in the kids even with a rating)
secondly, the gamers of today (and im generalising here of course, since gamers as a group cannot be homogonised, but a large majority) are either teenagers who get their buzz from the insta-action clickfest games that flood the market (COD4, Oblivion and gars of war to name a few) and these appeal by graphic gore or cool effects and not deep gameplay mechanics that take a long time to learn.
the other large group of gamers that will buy this game are the 20+ kids that have jobs and a family but still want to play "cool" games with their friends.
these dont want a deep and complex game since they literally dont have the time to get the hang of it... they just want to pop that disc in and start the action without having to go through tons of dialogue and decisions...

for those who fall in the "hardcore fans" category for fallout, this is completely unimportant... they dont care much for the shallow and fastpaced games where the "cool" and glossy finish distract you for a month before you buy the next game.
this is also the reason why they react so violently on the forums most of the time... despite what bethesda wants to market it as... this is not a sequel to fallout 2...
this is not an rpg.
its an action adventure set in the fallout world.

thats not to say that it couldnt have been a good RPG in first person.
thats quite possible to do...

however, most "average" gamers wont like the fact that you will miss with most of your shots until youve increased your smallarms skill (as noted during the testing of the game).
they wont want to go through deep and engaging dialogue that forces you to make morality choices. (wich is why beth is somewhat forcing the morality on you... hence no killing kids, since if you could kill kids but got major wanted levels and bountyhunters after you and everybody hates you, they would get angry at the game, not their own choice of killing the kid in the first place, spoiled as they are with the "you can get away with anything in games" mentality of most newer games)

what they do want is the quick and instant gratifications of gory kills and big explotions (hence the blowing bodyparts off with smallarms and the nuke-catapult).
they want to feel like a hero without actually having to take the consequenses of their actions (wich is why you wont get much more than a bit of negative karma from blowing up an entire town, or for that matter the fact that you can arm the damned thing right infront of the eyes of the whole town without problems)

well i could go on, but i think you get the idea.

what im trying to say is that, even tho it breaks my heart, bethesda couldnt have done this in any other way. (a smaller independent company probarbly could, but not beth... theyve got too much riding on it)

so i guess im just hoping that beth will loose interest in the franchise and sell the rights to some new upcoming company with something to prove.
 
Oddball_E8 said:
the gamers of today (and im generalising here of course, since gamers as a group cannot be homogonised, but a large majority) are either teenagers who get their buzz from the insta-action clickfest games that flood the market (COD4, Oblivion and gars of war to name a few) and these appeal by graphic gore or cool effects and not deep gameplay mechanics that take a long time to learn.
the other large group of gamers that will buy this game are the 20+ kids that have jobs and a family but still want to play "cool" games with their friends.
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The average gamer is 30+ so if you are saying BS is not targeting them, I would call that a pretty bad business move.
 
I think pigeonholing everyone who plays games like GTA or COD as a drooling teenager isn't particularly fair.

I like both of those series, because what they do, they do exceptionally well. Yes, there's big explosions and yes it's essentially running around shooting people (or driving cars into people, etc). But that doesn't immediately make them stupid.

COD4 for instance pulled off a very tense environment through a combination of relatively low player health and some excellent scripting. That makes the whole shooty bit a great deal more exciting and fun. Rainbow 6 Vegas does much the same thing with a squad-based environment.

Then again I'm a big fan of RPG's that really nail the 'Role Playing' bit and provide you with a good canvas on which to create a character (one of the reason's I'm less enamored with Oblivion than I was initially - it's a bit shallow once you get past the pretty).

I do however think you're right - Bethesda had to build a game that had a broader appeal than a PnP turn-based RPG. The realities of game development these days is that one bad title can sink the whole ship (look at Ensemble - probably one of the best RTS makers around and they still got canned). I personally like what they're doing with the IP but I also agree it's not the old Fallout any more. I'm not sure anyone could make what would be known around these parts as a 'true' successor any more.
 
At first I was "deja fucking vu" I already read this thread. Then I remembered I did :D

As someone told you, he's 14, and he's been playing FO 1 and 2 for 3 years; he also told you to not generalise kids as if they're all mindless and stupid - and he's right, even if I'm no longer a kid, that was quite immature to add.

I'll c&p what I wrote myself:

Gameplay made Fallout, 'Fallout', for me. The isometric camera, the turn based combat, all those character skills, and the setting. Fallout 3 does not retain the first two features, the 3rd feature is now also mixed with player skill, and the last feature I think they can pull it off. Regardless of this, I still believe Fallout 3 will be a good game in its own right, just not a fallout game, for the previous reasons I listed. All of which are my opinion.

I would have really liked it if combat was wholly dependent on skill, as in accuracy and damage, like it was in Morrowind (only this time they give dodge/movement animations to the NPCs when attacked), rather than how it was in Oblivion (skill = damage power, accuracy=user skill). And if lower intel would result in funny, stupid dialogue. I believe skill makes an RPG game, and dark humour makes part of fallout.
 
thefalloutfan said:
Gameplay made Fallout, 'Fallout', for me.
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I'll have to agree with the OP since I believe he's (unfortunately) right. As much as I want a proper progression to the Fallout 1&2 story, it's just not going to happen because the mass market just doesn't allow for it. And in my opinion, it would have been better if it was dead, but alas, it won't be. I don't really have the time to play games anymore unfortunately, but if FO3 was an actual continuation of the previous, I would make the time for it.

Regardless, Bethesda is to making FO as George W. Bush is to president, even though that they are doing the "profit" side of it right.
 
i too play GTA IV and COD4...

but i play them for what they are... shooters (gta more or less is).

and shooters need flashy effects, constant action and lots of gore...

but an RPG needs completely different things than a shooter.
sure it can have the flashy effects and all that... but it shouldnt be a major selling point...
i remember watching the gameplay demo of FO3 being played on some online gameshow (gamespot maby) and it was constantly being compared to (and praised for the similarity to) oblivion... "cos oblivion was teh bomb of roleplaying" and when they started to shoot people with bloody mess on they all got lots of "ooohs and aaahs" and "awsome!" comments...

and that just goes to show what the target audience for this game is...
the shooter crowd.

now im not saying FO3 is completely devoid of all RPG elements... but it has been "dumbed down" alot (from just the few things ive heard from the devs so far) and that IMHO is not a good thing...
 
I'm confused. Suppose that Bethesda is doing the right thing to get a ton of sales, why should we care? I really don't give a rat's ass if Bethesda is the most succesful company in the world by making Fallout 3, it won't make me like the game any more.

That said, why would going for the exact same audience and type of game that everyone is going for be a smart move? How is getting your product close to the competition good?
 
Sander said:
I'm confused. Suppose that Bethesda is doing the right thing to get a ton of sales, why should we care? I really don't give a rat's ass if Bethesda is the most succesful company in the world by making Fallout 3, it won't make me like the game any more.

That said, why would going for the exact same audience and type of game that everyone is going for be a smart move? How is getting your product close to the competition good?
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"riding the wave" is always the safest (but not always most profitable) way to market something...

so if zombie games is huge right now, make a zombie game for some guaranteed bucks...
but if you make a different game you might make more money (if it becomes a hit) but it might also flopp completely.
 
Not all people who play games such as Call of Duty 4 are unintelligent (I can't say anything about GTA IV fans, because I have never played the game). When I play Call of Duty on my X-box 360, I can occasionally find very intelligent conversation on non-gaming and gaming topics. Anyhow, I would like to think that Bethesda is ignoring the Fallout 1 fanbase because they have to, not because they want to.

Honestly, I am looking forward to the game; I would imagine that Fallout 3 is the closest thing we'll get to a true Fallout sequel. Or, maybe, I have jus given up being pissy about the changes Bethesda made to the Fallout universe. Who knows.
 
I've spend about 3.5 seconds listening to 13 year old retards scream nonsense like "Jew-Nigger" into their 360 headsets while my brother was playing CoD 4.

I'll take a pass thanks.
 
Lepidus said:
Not all people who play games such as Call of Duty 4 are unintelligent (I can't say anything about GTA IV fans, because I have never played the game). When I play Call of Duty on my X-box 360, I can occasionally find very intelligent conversation on non-gaming and gaming topics. Anyhow, I would like to think that Bethesda is ignoring the Fallout 1 fanbase because they have to, not because they want to.

Honestly, I am looking forward to the game; I would imagine that Fallout 3 is the closest thing we'll get to a true Fallout sequel. Or, maybe, I have jus given up being pissy about the changes Bethesda made to the Fallout universe. Who knows.
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In a way I'm beginning to feel the same as you. I just can't care anymore about Fallout 3 like I used. Maybe it's just all the school work. But I think it's more that I realized it's just a game. Maybe it's they're the best games ever made, though I don't think anyone is making that claim here, but in the end it's still just a game. So I'll enjoy Fallout 1 and 2 for years and that will be that. I might play Fallout 3, but honestly I feel Bethesda makes mediocre games so I'll wait for reviews and then wait till it's bargained binned most likely.

Has Bethesda fucked it over? Probably. But there's really nothing we can do about it. Most likely it will sell millions, get rave reviews, and span at least one sequel. And all the complaining, nit picking, and even genuine criticism will stop that. And that's just how life is. Companies don't care what fans think as long as they can still sell their product. Everyone's opinion on this forum is only worth, well, about a couple thousand dollars, I would say, just based on all the people here who said they won't be buying it or at least not straight from Bethesda. When we're talking about $60 million (not all profit of course) that's just a tiny drop of water in the ocean. I like you guys, but maybe we all should just forget about it. It will just be Fallout: BoS 2.
 
Oddball_E8 said:
what im trying to say is that, even tho it breaks my heart, bethesda couldnt have done this in any other way. (a smaller independent company probarbly could, but not beth... theyve got too much riding on it)
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Right on man. I agree and feel the same way. In fact i was gonna make a post just like this but you beat me to it!

I don't think Oddball is trying to say people that play FPS are stupid. I play COD and Halo and enjoy them for what they are: shallow, high-octane, visually stimulating games.

I think what he's saying is that is where the all-powerful dollar is currently at in the games industry. Todd Howard is simply making what his marketing director told him to. I don't think it's that Beth 'don't get it' (Fallout, that is) i think they totally get it. A nice, fat paycheck at the end of the day.

I mean, put yourself in their shoes a few years back. You're a video game development company. You just paid millions for the FO IP. You can either:

1) 'Ride the wave': make a no-brainer FPS to appeal to the mass-market (which, i'll wager, is far, far bigger than all the other entertainment target markets put together) Garantee yourself to make some major big bucks, score a sequel, and get some great ratings in all those incredibly objective, high-end reporting video game magazines everybody respects so much.

2) Make a deep, complex, stylized RPG with risque humour and child-kiiling, that kids parents won't buy because they think it will twist their darling little munchkins brain. (unlike your average FPS) There's a good chance, in fact, that the only people you will find yourself appealing to is a minority of hardcore 'cult' fans that are smart enough to appreciate your honest and courageous take on post-apocalyptic humanity (see NMA :)) You then go broke/get fired and get replaced by a bunch of 3D Max kids with no idea how to make a good video game.

But hey, that's enough cynical sarcasm from me. Lets take a look at the future for a minute:

The way i see it, the video game industry is starting to seperate, and in the future almost ALL commercial dev studios will be making 1) and the awesome, up-coming rise of modding and fan-made amateur games will cater to 2). The future's bright!
 
Oddball_E8 said:
...(COD4, Oblivion and gars of war to name a few)...
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Fish of War? :P

As long as they eventually release a CS, we'll probably be able to mod in most of the things they're changing( other than the FPP), and then we can get all the prostitutes, drugs, and childkilling we want. It might eventually become a decent Fallout game, but it will take awhile even if they ship the game with the CS, and it will still be much worse than Fallout 1/2.
 
rcorporon said:
I've spend about 3.5 seconds listening to 13 year old retards scream nonsense like "Jew-Nigger" into their 360 headsets while my brother was playing CoD 4.

I'll take a pass thanks.
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I completely understand why that would prevent you from having any desire to play an on-line X-box game. It happens daily.
 
Yeah, I'd rather spend the money upgrading my PC than buying a console. It costs about the same, and PC's are just better all around than consoles. The one thing that consoles are better at is that you just have to put in a disc, and you can play the game. In a PC game, you have to mess around with the graphics settings until you get them to run well on your computer.
 
Well they got me... so far. I watched a friend play Morowind but never got the hang of or wanted to soultrap make my own spells ect, so when Oblivion was coming out bethsoft marketed the game to "look" less hardcore in the commercials, which they sorta did by not making the spells you made so OP. But i still can not stomach that game. So an ideal game for me would be half as hardcore as Oblivion, which i think Fallout 3 will be. And grew up on Fallout 1/2 so i like the universe, so instead of hating the sidequests like on Oblivion i think ill actually like the side quests.

Im 26 and im not saying that it is 100 percent true to its fallout predecessors but it will be a good stand alone game.
 
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