Personally i love a good challenge. But PVP has never been that fun for me in a role playing environment. When i want to play PVP i play cod or some other shooter. When im playing a role playing game i want story, character development, and of course L00T. Also being killed repeatedly by characters 10 lvls higher than you will ruin your fun. Thats not challenging its annoying. True open PVP games will never sell on the mass market in an MMO because, who wants to drop a monthly fee just to have some 12 yr old with nothing better to do kill u and steal all your stuff. I would like to see some PVP stuff based around guilds and factions. THat would be awesome. But just straight open pvp would be pointless and would lead to alot of griefing, as for having one character per account, i really dont think it would sell well that way. People like to have choice, for instance i have anywhere from 2-5 games in progress in fallout 2 at any one time, each with a different character. And then i play whatever one im in the mood to play at the time.
Bethesda vs Interplay on Fallout Online
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Grayswandir
Mildly Dipped
Hey, that's a really good comparison, I will keep it. I kinda think myself that the pvp games disrupt the rules of the game theories, that the cooperative strategies ('tit for tats' and such) should be the more rewarding in the long term,
http://www2.lifl.fr/IPD/applet-tournament.html
Instead most pvp games make the aggressiv strategies (always aggress, cooperate then betray...) the most rewarding in the short AND the long term. Basicly the people playing cooperative either keep playing as the sucker of the game, leave the game, or have to become a PK himself and always shoot first, cause its the only reasonable choice. There is a nice vicious circle at work, but I don't think FOOL is going to break it.
Still, a fallout MMO without full pvp... Thats kinda dumb.
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
see, and this is the problem.
in free and open pvp, there is nothing to fix.
there are no safe areas, no mechanics to control or stymie it.
its free and open PvP.
you cannot ask for free and open PvP, and then ways to stop/control/penalize those who make use of it.
that would not be free and open PvP.
in free and open pvp, there is nothing to fix.
there are no safe areas, no mechanics to control or stymie it.
its free and open PvP.
you cannot ask for free and open PvP, and then ways to stop/control/penalize those who make use of it.
that would not be free and open PvP.
Grayswandir
Mildly Dipped
Meh! Yes I can
Real life (as game theories) is also free and open pvp in a way. In fact it is historically and socially proven, that cooperation is more rewarding than aggressiveness.
I want a world where pvp is a tool for greater realism and not an end in itself, a world where it is possible to kill everyone, but with enough incentives not to do so. The 'free' of free pvp means for me 'free will' to shoot or not. Pvp game are broken imo, because they do not offer the same mechanism that the real life offer, meaning social mechanism : you steal/kill from a community => you go to jail, are exiled from this community/shoot on sight by all members. If you get expelled from all community, you became an outcast and cant go shop in cities, store your stuff, etc...
In my opinion, implementing those social mechanism (or equivalent) trough programming is one of the biggest challenge of the mmorpg industry, especially since they have to deal with a world where people dont die/ have multiple bodies. If it is even possible.
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
it is not possible.
how would you enforce a jail time?
how would you force people to suffer through it and not spend that time just logged off?
whats to stop people from making multiple accounts? you want a company to limit the # of accounts people can have? how would that help their bottom line.
free and open pvp will not work.
either it will not be free and open pvp, or you wont have a playerbase.
it has been proven time and time again.
uo had free and open PvP and it almost killed that game.
shadowbane had free and open PvP and it failed.
AC had free and open PvP and it barely held on and closed down after a while. same with AC 2.
name a game that has had free and open PvP that lasted with any kind of longevity.
it wont work.
you put restrictions or penalties to it, and it ceases to be free and open pvp.
it will not work. it has been proven numerous times.
either the game fails, or they move to consequences and/or penalties.
games have tried it. it does not work.
how would you enforce a jail time?
how would you force people to suffer through it and not spend that time just logged off?
whats to stop people from making multiple accounts? you want a company to limit the # of accounts people can have? how would that help their bottom line.
free and open pvp will not work.
either it will not be free and open pvp, or you wont have a playerbase.
it has been proven time and time again.
uo had free and open PvP and it almost killed that game.
shadowbane had free and open PvP and it failed.
AC had free and open PvP and it barely held on and closed down after a while. same with AC 2.
name a game that has had free and open PvP that lasted with any kind of longevity.
it wont work.
you put restrictions or penalties to it, and it ceases to be free and open pvp.
it will not work. it has been proven numerous times.
either the game fails, or they move to consequences and/or penalties.
games have tried it. it does not work.
People will simply relog into their other characters and do shit again. :>
Yes you are right that ffa pvp wont work, but I wonted to ask did anyone played Fallen Earth and is it a game that future FOOL can look on.
Its in a similar postapocalyptic world, its devided in regions (like theres no pvp in first region), it has viecles and horses, good crafting system, ok combat but I cant tell as I didnt played it, only watched videos.
I dont like the factions (as all should be able to start their own gang and base in wasteland) and mutations as there is nothing like in fallout.
Sorry for bad eng.
Its in a similar postapocalyptic world, its devided in regions (like theres no pvp in first region), it has viecles and horses, good crafting system, ok combat but I cant tell as I didnt played it, only watched videos.
I dont like the factions (as all should be able to start their own gang and base in wasteland) and mutations as there is nothing like in fallout.
Sorry for bad eng.
Grayswandir
Mildly Dipped
I never said I had the magik solution hidden in my socket, and that I was kind enought to unveil it now, I am not that pretentious.
Free to play game already have the possibillity to choose the one account per player policy, but no mean to enforce it. Commercial game could enforce a one account per player policiy, but doesn't want to, cause it's against their interest right now, even if it destroy their world economy/balance. That the Wow way to do things. But not all mmo can be Wow, so they are going to try to differentiate themselves, to find their niche market. I am confident that one day we will see it happening. I just hope it won't be barbieonline.com (or then with a lot of horrible death animation
). For the rest I don't want to throw ideas in the wind, it make no sense to build theories that couldn't be tested.
Free means that you can attack everyone in the game without having the fallout 3 invulnerable kid effect. Open means that all zone are open to pvp. (Is that right? I am no pro in mmo terminologie)
But let's take fonline for example. It has free and open pvp. Yet in some zone there are guards that will attack the first aggressor. You can still kill you ennemy if you want, but its a lot harder since you would have to kill all the guards too, but not impossible. For me that kind of restriction doesn't make the game less "free" and "less open".If for you that kind of thing is what you call a "restriction to pvp", then we aggree : "free and open pvp will not work. " I don't even see the point in that kind of game, except the counter strike online kinda game, but they are no rpg.
Hey, i am the one that said pvpmmorpg were broken, just 2 posts ago remember?
You are saying it wont work because it never worked before so it wont work. I get that. I am saying it didn't work because the rules of the games were designed to give the advantage to the ones that would destroy the game (the ones with aggressiv strategies), instead of privileging the ones with cooperative strategies. The main difficulty is the multiple-account. If you solve that you "only" have to design the game.
Grayswandir said:
100% agree
I dont know if ist even a question with FOOL, i just hope that someone, somewhere once makes a mmorpg that encourages roleplaying, pvp, cooperation and politics with the minimum of restrictions but the maximum deterrence to griefers. It doesnt need to be the only playstyle either, just settings on one server while there are servers for more casual pve, lootgathering.... whatever will get subscribers.
I would like to play a mmorpg because of player to player interaction, not because everyone is after the same set of equipment and waiting for the next content-update.
oh well, hope dies last.
The problem with attempts to deter those players is that there are very few consequences that they would care about. Especially if they get to loot your corpse. So what if the guards kill them...if they can loot your stuff first its ok. After all they are just doing it to be assholes. The things that would deter regular players will not deter them because they simply don't care about the consequences. Short of banning them there aren't really any consequences that will deter them, and that costs u a subscriber. Honestly, the only PVP system ive seen that works well is is WOWs, it allows u to choose to take part in pvp or not, for the most part. I would be OK with that cause i just wouldn't flag myself unless i wanted to actually PVP. Of course its not realistic, but it is a game afterall, not real life.
I agree that fallen earth is a good one to look to for ideas, was on the right track, although combat kinda sucked, and the crafting was a serious pain.
I am more than willing to give it a try no matter what it comes out like. but full loot open pvp would be a sure way to not get my 15$ a month.
I agree that fallen earth is a good one to look to for ideas, was on the right track, although combat kinda sucked, and the crafting was a serious pain.
I am more than willing to give it a try no matter what it comes out like. but full loot open pvp would be a sure way to not get my 15$ a month.
what about thief's ?Grayswandir said:
i can understand being robed in the street but getting robed in a guarded bank when i discuss my private account with my banker?! coming into a touch distant should be considered aggression and shot, just wait your turn, because such mechanic is impossible so the whole bank sector should be declared as no go zone.
same with any trader, after the million customer getting robed there would be a stay back or get shot policy, so its should be made a no go zone as well...
p.s. the should really introduce a mechanic for auto hiding the weapons when entering a guarded zone
fononline is not a mmorpg and besides i am strong beliver that there is nosuch thing as non commercial mmorpg
Those issues will probably be ironed out in a future release…remember this is a fan made mod and not a team of 100 highly skilled game designers, and considering that - they have done an amazing job… 
You know what you could do.
Free and open PvP (Aside from in towns and shit. I realize its not really "Open" But you NEED a safe spot)
Now, have peoples actions give them a reputation. For example, if you ganked new players or raided traveling merchants, good people (NCR Rangers, Vault City, other normal players etc) would become hostile. At the same time, raiders, slavers and evil players would notice your "Potential" and become friendly's.
Now, if you were a "Evil" player, you wouldn't attack a fellow evil. Like you, he/she is a slaver/raider. Inversely, someone who defends the merchants or has a high karma level wouldn't attack someone similarly affiliated.
Finally, if you want, you can sit on the fence. Not hated, nor liked. Shop Keepers would serve you, but you wouldn't get the best prices. Raiders would let you pass, but would eye you warily. As a reward however, you can gain access to all sorts of facility's and items.
Now, if you decided to reform and swap alignment's, you could gun down your fellow's (Or perform certain task's, like pinch a item or kill someone), but both side's would become aware of your backstabber status and you'd be thrown to neutral and have to work your way back into the good books of a specific karmic alignment.
What would happen is if you were to narrow it down to 3 factions (Simplification, so Evil, Neutral and good.) Out in the wasteland, you'd either run into those of a similar karmic alignment who should let you be fine, those of an opposite karmic alignment who might ignore you, but its likely that they'll attack you or those who are neutral, who might attack if its an opportunity for whatever reason.
Perhaps implement patrols or travel paths frequented by NPC traders or raiders (Etc,etc) so you can kill indiscriminately out of sight, but if their are survivors or witnesses your reputation will be impacted.
I dunno how you'd handle death though.
Free and open PvP (Aside from in towns and shit. I realize its not really "Open" But you NEED a safe spot)
Now, have peoples actions give them a reputation. For example, if you ganked new players or raided traveling merchants, good people (NCR Rangers, Vault City, other normal players etc) would become hostile. At the same time, raiders, slavers and evil players would notice your "Potential" and become friendly's.
Now, if you were a "Evil" player, you wouldn't attack a fellow evil. Like you, he/she is a slaver/raider. Inversely, someone who defends the merchants or has a high karma level wouldn't attack someone similarly affiliated.
Finally, if you want, you can sit on the fence. Not hated, nor liked. Shop Keepers would serve you, but you wouldn't get the best prices. Raiders would let you pass, but would eye you warily. As a reward however, you can gain access to all sorts of facility's and items.
Now, if you decided to reform and swap alignment's, you could gun down your fellow's (Or perform certain task's, like pinch a item or kill someone), but both side's would become aware of your backstabber status and you'd be thrown to neutral and have to work your way back into the good books of a specific karmic alignment.
What would happen is if you were to narrow it down to 3 factions (Simplification, so Evil, Neutral and good.) Out in the wasteland, you'd either run into those of a similar karmic alignment who should let you be fine, those of an opposite karmic alignment who might ignore you, but its likely that they'll attack you or those who are neutral, who might attack if its an opportunity for whatever reason.
Perhaps implement patrols or travel paths frequented by NPC traders or raiders (Etc,etc) so you can kill indiscriminately out of sight, but if their are survivors or witnesses your reputation will be impacted.
I dunno how you'd handle death though.
.Pixote. said:Those issues will probably be ironed out in a future release…remember this is a fan made mod and not a team of 100 highly skilled game designers, and considering that - they have done an amazing job…
they did but i doubt they'll be able to iron them out, if they do they'll make the thief's "class" almost useless.
which is why i believe that there is no 'none commercial MMORPG's' or 'opensource RPG', just as there is no "opensource" book.
and without its impossible to create a game rich in options with good sense of progression and make good and rewarding use of all of the skills.
Unfitg0d0fwar
First time out of the vault
No what they need to do is do what they did with the games forget jail time just add that every guard/npc attacks whoever broke the law so its just like the other games also one thing that in the interplay forums there has been discussion about factions and thats 1 thing im sure they will be focusing on because there were 3 main factions based in fallout 1,2,tactics. Their biggest obstacle for me would be their combat because they are used to turn based im guessing they could do something where in a combat situation depending if it is on pvp or pve the play should get in game pauses kinda how kotor works where you hit space the game pauses so you can adjust like that where you get unlimited with pve but during a pvp session a player should get like 5 or so. The other big thing to me will be how they make the storyline. I really hope they go for somewhat linear gameplay where you do bunch of main quests but also adding side quests along with encounter quests kinda like how fallout tactics did some.
Unfitg0d0fwar said:
i am sorry but that will never happen.
here is the basic rules of any big commercial MMORPG (that i just made up):
* the game designed in goal of bringing money not the hopes and dreams of the core players of the franchise, although you get a bonus if you are able to sell it as result of user feedback.
* the budget determines the polish level of the game, for example quest wise the number quest like go Kill 10 of... or go fetch 10 of.. fedex quest
* there will not be TURN BASE or PAUSE in MMORPG ever !!
* unlike usual RPG's the damage will be reduced and HP will be upped, to prolong the length of the battles.
* there will restricted zones, that you cannot kill any thing or level restriction.
* there will usually be small amount of main factions thus less nees fo content and more of it exposed to the user.
* no major life decision will be implemented in the character creation screen or there will be predetermined already optimized stats wise char available for you (to which the quest will be tailored)
* mostly no small spaces.
* the will be always "single player" quest line up.
* there will be game map, there will be quests list, there will be compass and there will be pointers to where to go (at best they will be optional)
well this from the top of my head, we may not like it but this how it works.
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
does not work in MMOs, people who pk/evil all the time just create a neutral/good char as well to do all their shopping and using some method such as houses or whatever drop what they want/need from town and then have a friend pick it up to xfer it.
net result: no actual penalty to the pk/evil person. they still get the benifits of town without having to be good/neutral.
try again.
Guiltyofbeingtrite
Vault Dweller
Kradath said:
yea, I liked SWG a ton before the "enhancements", and I quit just before Jump to Lightspeed.
Unfitg0d0fwar
First time out of the vault
mor said:Unfitg0d0fwar said:
i am sorry but that will never happen.
here is the basic rules of any big commercial MMORPG (that i just made up):
* the game designed in goal of bringing money not the hopes and dreams of the core players of the franchise, although you get a bonus if you are able to sell it as result of user feedback.
* the budget determines the polish level of the game, for example quest wise the number quest like go Kill 10 of... or go fetch 10 of.. fedex quest
* there will not be TURN BASE or PAUSE in MMORPG ever !!
* unlike usual RPG's the damage will be reduced and HP will be upped, to prolong the length of the battles.
* there will restricted zones, that you cannot kill any thing or level restriction.
* there will usually be small amount of main factions thus less nees fo content and more of it exposed to the user.
* no major life decision will be implemented in the character creation screen or there will be predetermined already optimized stats wise char available for you (to which the quest will be tailored)
* mostly no small spaces.
* the will be always "single player" quest line up.
* there will be game map, there will be quests list, there will be compass and there will be pointers to where to go (at best they will be optional)
well this from the top of my head, we may not like it but this how it works.
see now your saying that every single mmorpg has to be the same it doesnt does it? its not gonna be the same exact thing yes a lot are the same but that isnt my point im just pointiing out that EVERY mmo HAS to be the same EXACT thing which in many cases it doesn't. i realise not everything will be worked out but have u even played any of the fallouts they all have some type of turn based element even fallout 3 has it. you should also see that very cheap mmo's have very different polish this is an example have you seen wow quests basically kill this collect this where infact a game the makes a considerable amount less that wow have better quests. my example for that is runescape yea its a bad mmo but have you done any of the quests it actually has storyline and if u wanna get even more technical there is no single player quest line im sure in this case it will. also for turn based last time i checked kotor online will probably have 1 pause during combat considering all kotor games have that type of combat system and i doubt they are going to change that. i agree that no specific thing in character creation should effect your character but your in-game actions should. The mmo doesn't have to be exactly like wow yes a lot of games have the same elements but wow isnt the first mmo to do everything they just hit the right balance.