Big Brother Watching- says ACLU

welsh

welsh

Junkmaster
Back in thde 1960s and 70s, the US federal government got into a bit of trouble for investigating the peace and civil rights movements which some of the more conservative elements suspected of treason and subversion.

A lot of money was wasted, a lot of folks got spied on for exercising their civil rights, and in the end, the feds got slapped for breaching civil liberties.

Now it seems the ACLU is saying that's happening again. What do you think?
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...usatoday/antiterrorismmethodsdrawacluscrutiny

The American Civil Liberties Union of Oregon on Thursday joined other ACLU chapters around the nation to file Freedom of Information Act requests with the FBI to determine whether the agency is spying on political and religious groups.

The ACLU said there is evidence the FBI and police are illegally spying on political, environmental and faith-based groups elsewhere in the country.

"It is now beyond dispute that the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces have been used to systematically spy on the lawful political and religious activities of individuals and organizations," said Oregon ACLU Executive Director David Fidanque.

"Unfortunately, most of this activity has occurred under a cloak of secrecy so we don't know how much of it is occurring in Oregon," Fidanque said.
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from http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=73123
 
They never learn...

This will probably just end with the monitoring being stopped after an extensive lawsuit against the US government. Cant say its not needed...

What really bother's me is this watching of "Faith-based" groups. I mean I understand that terrorism has to have relatively brainwashed individuals and organized religion creates a lot of that. I wonder however how some of those strong Christians will view this? I know they must monitor Islamic groups...however Christian fundamentalists are almost as disgusted by the government as the radical Muslims are...

:? ,
The Vault Dweller
 
[PCE said:
el_Prez]Usually the people who complain have something to hide....
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No, it is exercising ones rights. What may start as something small may grow to be something big. One day they are spying which one day COULD end up being something major like arresting people because of their beliefs (being a Christian, Muslim, Atheist, etc.). Just because it happens in movies, books, video games, etc. does not mean it can not happen in real life. I know you said usually but this post is not just directed at you.
 
PsychoSniper said:
It allready happens in real life. Just not in the US, luckily.
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Actually it does happen in the US, but it has less to do about institutions and more about money. Corporations, and by proxy parts of the govt, often bypass laws and exploit the legal system to harass and control others.

A corporation, oddly having no presence in the Bill of Rights, has more importance than citizenry and can get away with a LOT especially if politics, govt or religious, are involved. Money tends to play a heavy part in new lawmaking, although not in a project cost context. Conscience laws, or those that the unethical corporations REALLY hate because it causes problems for them, are usually a constituents-appeasing thing.

Now if you want to talk about religion-based corporations and the associated problems with them, I have one word. Mormons. Okay, two. Scientologists.

I can't discriminate cults by century, now can I? :D
 
Roshambo said:
Now if you want to talk about religion-based corporations and the associated problems with them, I have one word. Mormons. Okay, two. Scientologists.

I can't discriminate cults by century, now can I? :D
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Good one Rosh, and this is a bit offtopic but was a bit too tempting to say.

Funny thing about Mormons, John Smith seemed to have had a sense of humour.

From what I have heard the word mormon comes from the name of the 'Angel Moroni'; it seems like the middle 'm' in mormon was added to mask what he really thought of his followers. :lol:
 
Corpse said:
Roshambo said:
Now if you want to talk about religion-based corporations and the associated problems with them, I have one word. Mormons. Okay, two. Scientologists.

I can't discriminate cults by century, now can I? :D
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Good one Rosh, and this is a bit offtopic but was a bit too tempting to say.

Funny thing about Mormons, John Smith seemed to have had a sense of humour.

From what I have heard the word mormon comes from the name of the 'Angel Moroni'; it seems like the middle 'm' in mormon was added to mask what he really thought of his followers. :lol:
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Joseph Smith.........not John Smith........and once more we dont "worship" or "follow" the angel Moroni.........he delivered the "golden plates" from wich was translated the "book of mormon". the title "The Book of Mormon" isnt dirived from what we worship but who recorded the events in the book.
mormons believe in the Father the Son and the Holy ghost...as quite a few christians do.


o yea sorry about bringing up a pretty much dead subject.....LOL
 
Didnt the Morons origonaly belive in horse theft, which is why they had to leave for Utah ?


And wasnt there once a massacre of a wagon train, perpertrated by Mormons ?
 
if you can provide proof of these events go ahead, Mormons where disliked in the towns and states that they traveled/lived in, so it wasnt uncommon for people to make up rumors and lies.

at the same time, can you judge the whole religion on the actions of the few? we all know that in every religion there are poeple who just do it to save face.



+ the reason they left for Utah is because of religious prosicution, they were driven out of every state they rested in. so they headed west for a new start.
 
bob_the_rambler said:
Joseph Smith.........not John Smith........and once more we dont "worship" or "follow" the angel Moroni.........he delivered the "golden plates" from wich was translated the "book of mormon". the title "The Book of Mormon" isnt dirived from what we worship but who recorded the events in the book.
mormons believe in the Father the Son and the Holy ghost...as quite a few christians do.


o yea sorry about bringing up a pretty much dead subject.....LOL
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whatever his name was, I'm not interested; but common.. angel 'Moroni'?

You can't tell me that's not something out of a practical joke.

bob_the_rambler said:
if you can provide proof of these events go ahead, Mormons where disliked in the towns and states that they traveled/lived in,
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I wonder why, could it have anything to do with the fact that people have better things to do than to listen to bullshit on a sunday morning?
 
Or they could have been disliked because quite a few of the members commited those crimes.

And the wagon train massacre is historicly documented.
 
So are the crusades, and various sexual and political abuses of power by popes. Does that make Catholicism a bad faith? No, it makes it an abused faith. Difference.

Also, that first sentence is completely stupid. Ever heard of stigma's? You know, those things abused by many people throughout history to blame stuff on a whole group of people, see Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin and many others. 'Gypsies' too suffer from this, and this is often based on nothing but 'Everyone knows they do these things'. Bah, despicable.
 
But the stigma on Gypsies is based on false assumptions.


There is historical evidence about the founders of hte mormens, as well as the activites of the mormons since then.
 
PsychoSniper said:
But the stigma on Gypsies is based on false assumptions.


There is historical evidence about the founders of hte mormens, as well as the activites of the mormons since then.
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Ah yes, of course. I forget that Mormons are a bunch of thieving bastards.
Oh, wait, they aren't.
I don't think you really understand what a stigma is. Whether or not it has some historical basis has nothing to do with the validity of a stigma: it's still a stigma. There were a lot of Jewish money-lenders, but that doesn't make all Jews a bunch of dirty money-lenders. There are and were gypsies that stole, that doesn't make them all thieves. Often stigma's are based on real events, but that doesn't make them any more valid.
 
1- The fact that people are willing to commit atrocities in the name of faith should be enough to tell you faith just doesn't work for that very same reason. Regardless of what any faith teaches, fanatics are willing to cross the line for it in the name of self righteousness, and the clergy will abuse any power it has over the masses; this often goes in contradiction to certain moral guidelines often set by most religions thus making it a self defeating purpose.

2- EDIT (Sorry was tired when I posted) Stigma is a mark of shame bore by people for the wrongdoings of other members of their faith, race, ideals or whatever. Often they are reinforced by people of faith or strong ideals, (which boil down to pretty much the same) against people who do not share their beliefs or ideals.
 
I thought it was a given the the FBI and other government agencies are constantly involved in quasi-legal or straight out illegal activities? I'm glad that people are still digging it out and exposing it to the public, but come one, is anyone honestly surpised by it anymore?
 
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