Brazil could make Russian new-generation fighters

[Chancellor Kremlin]

because force projection is by definition expensive.

But desirable

and of lesser usefulness overall than actual needs of a military. you might want to start with providing your troops with rations, munitions and adequate training before buying expensive toys.

Well, yes, I do hope they are taking that into account when they release the next budget. That was money that was meant for modernisation only. Hopefully they are releasing money for ''adequate catering and resupply'' aswell.

i'd build a Death Star.

''Do not be too proud of this technological terror you have constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force''

We are not only talking about air lifting and neither "only" about Russia.

Look to bring it to the core, it is about the whole picture. The big context. The NATO on one side the Warsaw pact on the other, not Russia. Sovietunion, Poland, East Germany, Hungary etc. I have no doubt that Russia is quite capable of defending its own borders and has the economy to keep its "own" army runing in good to excelent conditions if needed for a war. They proved this with the second world war against Germany albeit with a lot of support in material from western Allied nations (which should never be forgoten! Russia was never completely alone since day 1! of the war in the east! But that just by the way). It is extremly doubtfull that Russia alone would be able to run in a war between the NATO and Warsaw Pact the economy of all its satellite sates that alone is not even possible by thinknig about the big variation in armor and equipment present. Comanded Economy proved to be a falue in times of peace, and it would mean a colapse in the time of war. It are realistic estamiations when certain forces say that in a NATO - Warsaw Pact war after a short time most of the Warsaw Pact armor would just stop to advance cause of heavy maintenance issues and falure in the equipment and that are Generals from EAST GERMANY which said that (later when the colt war was over). From the nations in the Pact, only the Sovietunion was issued with most modern equipment satellite states got most of the time rather older and outdated material while in the NATO most nations like France, Germany, Brittain, Spain, Italy etc. keept in many situations their army up to date not only with american equipment but as well own developed updates, of course many times enough in strong relation with US companies but that was most of the time in favour for the US, not the Europeans. More technical equipment has been copyied by US armies from Europe then Europe from the US (See smothbore guns, Anti Tank equipment, Armor protection, Laser guided systems for tank guns etc. The Abram Tank still is using a Antitank gun from produced in licence from Rheinmetall). What Europe got was many times nuclear weapons, like the Patriot system for short/medium range that has been positioned in Germany (though not controled by Germany) which almost caused the third world war in the 90s. Again it doesnt mean the NATO would have won a war against the Warsaw Pact for the case the NATO would have surprsingly attacked the Sovietunion with landforces.

Thats an interesting view, I haven't come across it, maybe its more modern than the one's I've read, which tend to agree the USSR would have overun Europe. As for the economy, like I said, the material I have read estimated the invasion would last 3-8 weeks, thus making time considerations irrelevant.

As for the Comanded Economy, you would be surprised how effective it can be in times of war. Probably more effective than in times of peace.

Just that Brazil is not even close to the ecnomic stability or military position of Germany. Thus why I say even a quite small number can be some stress.

Well, we are getting there, and our armed forces need to follow at appropriate speed. At the moment our armed forces are not even adequate for a nation of our stage of development.

Just that reality shows a difference. When was the last time of big tanks engaging each other ? For the last aprox. 15 years tanks have been used in urban engagements against single groups and rather small attackers or in situations for peace keeping (See Kosovo, Afganistan etc.). The glory days of tanks that engage each other from 4 km with numbers to the thousands are over and its questionable if it ever will come again. The last battle with a mass of tanks was in 2003 and it was just a matter of minutes as the bigest part of the Iraq tank force has been devasted with almost virtualy no loos for the US. But of coruse that was not a really fair battle, since the US had almost all advantages not only in numbers but also training and technology and air superiority! Though what it shows is just that almost no nation will engange in sich situations cause they are way to expensive. Last time when you could loose 2500 tanks in 1 our and could get away with it was for Russia in Kurks 1943 (its a bit exagerated, not a acurate number, but you get the picture). And even that worked only cause the Germans had no chance to replace their looses.

Iran/Iraq war had use of tanks against each other, many conflicts in Africa have tank to tank warfare (on a small scale), and I very much think an India/Pakistan war would see large scale tank use. The next major world conflict (if there is one and it does not escalate to a nuclear war) will see large tank usage.

The examples you provided included nations of vastly different technological levels fighting each other, one with a clear air advantage. In Brazil's case, any foreseeable opponent will not have a big advantage in the sky, which makes using tanks less problematic.

Modernisation. New Technology. No doubt. But the question is, from those neighbours, how many have a "big" (in the size of 500 units) tank force?

I think Brazil, Argentina and Venezuela have that number, but of older designs, and many of them are light/medium tanks, perhaps only a handful of 'MBT's in the modern sense of the word.

Which nation has curent programs of 150 anti tank guns for their battle tanks? The only use is in self propeled howitzers/artillery platforms (like the Paladin or Panzerhaubitze 2000).

The truth is that tank technology in its current form similar to small arms reached their peak in eveolution and there is no ground breaking new development to be expected anymore. There will be of course still replacement and new technologies in electronics, better computers that mean new changes. But all you could really do at the moment is increase the size of guns and powder to achieve higher penetration which would be then again compensated by higher armor values and different design of vehicles (meaning larger in size to hold the weight). You see the issue? A development, for more armor and biger guns which lead to another developemnt etc. and do not more then increase the money for a single unit. It is already that way that all modern tanks can quite easily on the usual ranges (2-3 Kilometers) penetrate and destroy each other. Increasing here only the numbers will not give any satisfying result. One makes a biger shell, the other one makes a biger armor. Tank guns already reached the physical limits of the material used for the shells. A velocity of aprox 1600-1700 meters per second.

It is estimated that current tanks like the Leopard 2 and Abram will do their service at least till 2016 eventualy even 2020 cause there is just no need for huge new developments in that field. What ever now if that means that we will get tanks that have magnetic armor (magnetic waves that reduce the speed of the shell) and railguns with velocities of more then 10 000m per second has yet to be seen. Railguns are already used and a possiblity (in science and physics they are working perfectly at least for one shot to simulate the impact of asteroids) but the preasure to make weapons out of it is yet not high enough.

Not necessarily. Like I said before, protection systems (in the form of active defenses) will probably have a role to play, and railgun's are a possibility for the near future (if the technology is developed to make the gun itself smaller)

You have actualy any source for that statement ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_and_wmd

Third paragraph.

You're brazillian WTF? Never suspected, lol. Hey... are you Tesla from the OuterSpace forum?

Sou, de Rio Das Ostras, uma cidade perto de RJ. And no im not Tesla from OuterSpace lol...

I suspect that as well, but for other reason: the Alcantara base is a far better launch point than any in US, Russia, Ukraine, etc. Cheaper and competitive satellite launches from Brazil is something the countries in this market absolutely don't want.

But the investigations done by our military couldn't prove if sabotage happened or not... or so they say. Can't blame them if sabotage evidence was found and covered to avoid diplomatic trouble, it's a serious accusation and could lead to breaking diplomatic relations or even war; both very bad for our economy and international politics.

Yep, another interesting theory. There was a high ranking officer in the military that went as far as predicting the launch would fail due to outside interference, ostensibly from the U.S.

Interesting... better keep a low profile, thought. We have too much to protect already, and too little defensive capacities for those, IMO.

Indeed. Hence the need to modernise. The corruption is what annoys me the most.

 

[Slaughter Manslaught]

At the moment our armed forces are not even adequate for a nation of our stage of development.

That's true. Ever heard of the BRICs? Brazil, Russia, India, China. These four nations are the going to be the rising powers of the multipower future.

But look at the BRIC. See a military patern here? All those three countries have immense, skilled armies, big, modern air forces, powerful navies and even nuclear weapons. They are all capable of holding their own against everyone. God, thirty years ago, NATO was preparing itself for the dreaded conflict with the Soviets, which was a doomed battle to stem the massive red tide that threatened to overrun Europe at any moment. The BRIC are all armed to the teeth. Except us.

We are behind the rest of the BRICs, even though we're on the same econimical stage. We probrably could wage a war against all the other South American countries AND WIN. And set all their countries afire while we rape their women and murder people for the lulz. With Heavy Metal on the background. Look up what Brazil and others did with Paraguay That's badass, but that's NOT enough. Hugo Chavez has petrodollars at his disposal and he's buying Russian equipament, probrably fearing a American invasion or just to look powerful, but... what if his "Bolivarian Alliance*" decides that Brazil is a bunch of evil imperialists? Go to Bolivia, they already look at Brazil as if we're somekind of "America-Lite" that regulary takes classes in the "School of Evil, exploitative imperialists", with the evil AMERICAN IMPERIALITZ as the teacher.


*Bolivar has probrably already drilled a hole to the earth's core in his grave

 

[Chancellor Kremlin]

That's true. Ever heard of the BRICs? Brazil, Russia, India, China. These four nations are the going to be the rising powers of the multipower future.

But look at the BRIC. See a military patern here? All those three countries have immense, skilled armies, big, modern air forces, powerful navies and even nuclear weapons. They are all capable of holding their own against everyone. God, thirty years ago, NATO was preparing itself for the dreaded conflict with the Soviets, which was a doomed battle to stem the massive red tide that threatened to overrun Europe at any moment. The BRIC are all armed to the teeth. Except us.

We are behind the rest of the BRICs, even though we're on the same econimical stage. We probrably could wage a war against all the other South American countries AND WIN. And set all their countries afire while we rape their women and murder people for the lulz. With Heavy Metal on the background. Look up what Brazil and others did with Paraguay That's badass, but that's NOT enough. Hugo Chavez has petrodollars at his disposal and he's buying Russian equipament, probrably fearing a American invasion or just to look powerful, but... what if his "Bolivarian Alliance*" decides that Brazil is a bunch of evil imperialists? Go to Bolivia, they already look at Brazil as if we're somekind of "America-Lite" that regulary takes classes in the "School of Evil, exploitative imperialists", with the evil AMERICAN IMPERIALITZ as the teacher.


*Bolivar has probrably already drilled a hole to the earth's core in his grave

Hahaha... yeah what reducing Paraguay's population by half as pretty badass lol... thats what happens when you get on the wrong side though.

To be fair, of all the BRIC countries, Brazil is the only one without strong geopolitical concerns. Our neighbours are all weak (maybe Venezuela is breaking htat pattern now) and we are surrounded by two oceans. We didn't really need strong armies and nukes.

As for nukes, as the only BRIC country without one, well, thats kind of a responsability we have aswell. We could probably produce one quite quickly if we wanted to. At the moment there are many social problems better atended to than to invest in that kind of programe. We already have a space programe, so its not like we would be diverting money from the people to space.

 

[CloudlessDruid]

never thought there was so many Brazilians here besides me. Soon NMA is going to need a Portuguese page ahahaha.