JJ86 said:
Assuming that the game designers over at BIS aren't total fucking idiots
That's assuming a lot...
Remember, these are the guys who put an ARMY OF ANTS in Broken Hills (or have those people left now? I can't remember).
JJ86 said:
What, you say? Microforte designers actually added some impressive functions in their games??
Actually, I'd say "
What? Microforte designers implemented a standard feature for a tactical combat game?" (Standard feature for any game actually.)
A tactical combat game revolves around: Good Guys, Bad Guys. Good Guys on map kill Bad Guys on map. When both sides see each other, they start attacking automatically. All that's happening is the Bad Guys are being told of the PCs presence without seeing him. It defeats the purpose of silent kill. It's becoming less like a play style and more like those loan sharks in the Hub which you could wipe out without anyone raising an eyebrow. Suitable only for one or two NPCs which the designers hand-pick.
JJ86 said:
In my Quartz custom level I avoided the issue of silent one-by-one takedown by making some enemies stay within sight of each other so the player would need to take them on in a specific way.
Linearity? Yay. Also remember the army of ants... Oh, and did you forget the part where they mentioned
luring the NPC away?
JJ86 said:
Methinks that is simple to design and should be in Game Design 101 at the Sawyer Institute of Van Buren. It seems as if more organized groups like police would even have more open communication like radios to alert everyone to your evil presence when PCs attack. Things like this seem as if they should be simple to add;
IF NPC/POLICE ALONE THEN CALL HQ FOR THREAT LEVEL.
IF NPC/POLICE SEES SUSPICIOUS PC THEN CALL HQ.
That's a nice idea. It'd be interesting to find out how long ago JE thought of it. That is, presuming he's thought of it. By the way, everything starts to look easy when you put it in an overly simple IF statement like that. Doesn't mean it works in game and it doesn't mean they'll think of it. Again though, we're back in a situation where the feature may as well not exist. The PC is
luring these people away, not starting all out combat with them in the open. If you're luring someone away to kill them, why the hell would you give them the chance to reach for their radio? Maybe the PC needs a saving throw against NPC radio usage?
JJ86 said:
Even when evil things are done secretively within a populace there should be a bad blood variable that hits your charisma for each nasty back door act.
It's funny reading this comment by you, and then Briareus' comment about NPCs reacting to things they didn't percieve... Regardless, it results in "Silent Kill = Combat with whole town" which, once again, defeats the purpose of the ability. So we've boiled down to the PC killing people and having everyone attack him because "they know". Gee, that sounds just like Fallout 1 & 2. Whatever happened to that silent kill ability?
Oh, you get to use that on that one guy on level 19...
Briareus said:
While your logic is sound, it is based upon a scenario that won't exist.
... because the PC won't actually be able to lure anyone away unless it's scripted, right?
Briareus said:
The system is setup so that designers can create situations where the PC can take out a small portion of NPCs without alerting the whole town if the designers want to. It just isn't going to be possible to do that gloom-n'-doom scenario you wrote.
Wait, I thought we were talking about individuals detecting combat as well as the PC being able to lure people away and silently knock them off? Now you're telling me it's just a scripted event? I can do that in Arcanum TODAY.
What a great non-feature!
Briareus said:
Also, when you kill someone, most areas will start a timer. When the timer is up, the "town" will assume you did it. The duration of the timer could be hours, days, weeks, whatever.
Funny feature to add. The ability to kill an NPC quietly (sorry, scripted event), then come back weeks later to find the town hostile and screaming "You did it!
MURDERER" (psychics!). I'm sure that'll be fun when it happens in a town you need to travel to so you can complete one quest, just to find the whole town attacking you because you SECRETLY LURED AWAY and murdered some guy a couple of weeks ago. In fact, what's the WHOLE POINT in a silent kill and combat detection/perception system if it's ultimate result is delaying combat until the next time you enter the town?
Feature to add:
Prison: Why should police attack you? Make 'em approach the PC, have a conversation which a persuasive PC can talk his way out of, but lock the PC up if he fails (of course, the PC is held for a few days then released depending on the crime, or can break his way out, or can just initiate combat).
I look forward to extra features like these.
Briareus said:
DarkUnderlord said:
My talking $10 note says that NPCs WON'T HAVE A CLUE that someone's gone missing. You can bump off half the town secretly and leave the other half still standing there, not even wondering what happened to everyone else. Talk to them and will they say "Be careful here stranger, a lot of folks have gone missing about"? Nope, they'll say "Hi, how are you." PC "Come with me into the dark alley over there. [Persuasion++]" NPC "Okay."
Right, because they should immediately react to events they didn't percieve?
What's better than NPCs reacting immediately to things they didn't perceive?
Why, reacting to things they didn't percieve with a delay of course! At least in my lame example, they only knew people had gone missing. In yours, you take it one step further and have them blame the PC as well! After all, that's what they're doing when the timer ticks down and they somehow *know* that the PC is responsible for the death of someone murdered a week ago. They may not have even seen the PC at all, yet they know he's a murderer?
You might also want to think about what you've said. Just how many things are going to occur
WHEN THE NPC IN QUESTION DIDN'T PERCEIVE THEM? How many quests will the PC be doing where he'll say "Yeah, I did that" and he'll be taken at his word? How many times will a "Bad Guy" see the PC and start shooting because the "Bad Guy" instinctively knows that the PC is his enemy? If you don't have ANY situation like that, then you're making one hell of a break-through computer game.
Briareus said:
That makes even less sense. Now they're reacting, but in a totally non-intelligent manner.
"Oh hello Mr. Stranger that I've never met before. Be careful, I have a feeling people are dying, but I'm going to talk to you and give you quests because new strangers in town carrying guns and having robots and dogs and super mutants and ghouls following them around doesn't cause me any concern what-so-ever."
I suppose more intelligent ways of reacting would be:
COMBAT! (Which defeats the purpose of the silent-kill ability).
NO QUEST FOR YOU! (Which does nothing more than pisses the player off and makes them go for combat anyway).
NO REACTION! (Which is where we started and lets the PC silent kill everyone).
This must be a revolutionary computer game where NPCs will react intelligently and the WORLD'S FIRST RPG where NPCs don't give quests to complete strangers. How does the meet and greet go? Is it like The Sims where you build up a reputaion over-time before they'll give you anything? I wonder, will the dialogue to handle this be self-generated by a super AI embedded in the code, or are you going to hand write it all?
Oh that's right, it's only for those one or two
scripted NPCs.