Briareus about VB's combat engine

[Briareus]

All that's happening is the Bad Guys are being told of the PCs presence without seeing him.

BZZZ. Sorry, wrong answer. They aren't being told of the PC's presense.

Oh, and did you forget the part where they mentioned luring the NPC away?

Oh, and did you forget the part where I mentioned So, IF you can lure someone to a nice dark alley and kill them quickly and quietly, you should have no problem getting away with it. Both the words "if" and "should" are in that sentence. That implies you won't always be able to do it. And I never said anything about these being hard-coded scripted events (they aren't).

If you're luring someone away to kill them, why the hell would you give them the chance to reach for their radio?

For that matter, why should they be able to reach for their weapon, or shout for help, or run away, etc., etc.?

Regardless, it results in "Silent Kill = Combat with whole town"

As I've said before, only in areas where that would make sense, and only after the town figured you were the one that did it. Which towns this happens or doesn't happen in is determined by the designers. If a town/area is lawless, you'll be able to get away with murder (literally).

While your logic is sound, it is based upon a scenario that won't exist.

... because the PC won't actually be able to lure anyone away unless it's scripted, right?

BZZZ. Wrong. Try again. You won't be able to lure people away if it makes sense.

Also, when you kill someone, most areas will start a timer. When the timer is up, the "town" will assume you did it. The duration of the timer could be hours, days, weeks, whatever.

Funny feature to add. The ability to kill an NPC quietly (sorry, scripted event), then come back weeks later to find the town hostile and screaming "You did it! MURDERER" (psychics!). I'm sure that'll be fun when it happens in a town you need to travel to so you can complete one quest, just to find the whole town attacking you because you SECRETLY LURED AWAY and murdered some guy a couple of weeks ago. In fact, what's the WHOLE POINT in a silent kill and combat detection/perception system if it's ultimate result is delaying combat until the next time you enter the town?

I realize now that I was using terms we use on the team and that they're causing confusion. What I should have said was, "Also, when you kill someone, most areas will start a timer. When the timer is up, the "faction" will assume you did it. The duration of the timer could be hours, days, weeks, whatever." That faction could be a gang, a mob, a group of whores, raiders, slaves, or everyone in an area. It just depends on the area and what makes sense.

What's better than NPCs reacting immediately to things they didn't perceive? Why, reacting to things they didn't percieve with a delay of course! At least in my lame example, they only knew people had gone missing. In yours, you take it one step further and have them blame the PC as well! After all, that's what they're doing when the timer ticks down and they somehow *know* that the PC is responsible for the death of someone murdered a week ago. They may not have even seen the PC at all, yet they know he's a murderer?

The timer us used in areas where it is safe for the NPCs to assume "that new stranger guy that was here" must have done it. If it's not safe to assume, then there won't be a timer.

You might also want to think about what you've said. Just how many things are going to occur WHEN THE NPC IN QUESTION DIDN'T PERCEIVE THEM? How many quests will the PC be doing where he'll say "Yeah, I did that" and he'll be taken at his word? How many times will a "Bad Guy" see the PC and start shooting because the "Bad Guy" instinctively knows that the PC is his enemy? If you don't have ANY situation like that, then you're making one hell of a break-through computer game.

The PC typically only mentions completion of a quest to the quest giver or to a NPC that would care about the quest. If it's in the NPCs character design to doubt the player, they can very well do that if the designers want them to.

As for Bad Guys shooting the PC on sight, why not? If someone is ordered to defend an area against attackers, and they see someone they don't recognize, you don't want them to start shooting?

 

[JJ86]

Hopefully I can get around it soon and post the reply.

Hopefully you can also keep the thinly veiled hostility from reappearing too. Cut Briareus some slack and try to ask some questions without the "rapier-sharp wit". He should be given lots of credit for not flaming the hell out of your attempts at humhoor. Its one thing to ferret out his thoughts on "luring" and another thing to make silly assumptions of what you think he meant....

Keep it real, yo.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Hopefully you can also keep the thinly veiled hostility from reappearing too.

Yeah, I think I do. I think the response is quite nice actually. All warm and flowery like....

... well, maybe not.

Error I'm getting seems to be a firewall thing too. Seems to prevent me from sending all the text through. Can't even post it up at another forum either, unless I do it in 4 - 5 seperate posts. With a paragraph in each. This is about as much as I can post.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Yay me!

All that's happening is the Bad Guys are being told of the PCs presence without seeing him.

BZZZ. Sorry, wrong answer. They aren't being told of the PC's presense.

You worked on FO:T did you? (Sorry, that was me replying to JJ86 about FO:T's player index - If the communication was high then more entities in that player index would be aware of things happening to their compadres - In which case 'silent kill' is defeated in that situation as more people become aware).

Oh, and did you forget the part where I mentioned So, IF you can lure someone to a nice dark alley and kill them quickly and quietly, you should have no problem getting away with it. Both the words "if" and "should" are in that sentence. That implies you won't always be able to do it. And I never said anything about these being hard-coded scripted events (they aren't).

Me saying 'luring the NPC away' was again in response to JJ86 saying he put NPC's in line of sight of each other, to prevent them being bumped off. That's all very well, but if the PC can lure them away, out of sight of the others, he can bump them off quite happily.

The question that needs to be asked is: How do you lure an NPC away? Is it done through dialogue? Does the PC throw a pack of cigarettes on the ground near the intended target? Does the PC use a noisemaker arrow and have the NPC come and investigate the noise...?

For that matter, why should they be able to reach for their weapon, or shout for help, or run away, etc., etc.?

That's a good question. Why would you? If you can get them in the alley without them suspecting anything, start combat mode and bump them off in your first combat turn (insta-kill) then there's no chance of them doing anything.

... because the PC won't actually be able to lure anyone away unless it's scripted, right?

BZZZ. Wrong. Try again. You won't be able to lure people away if it makes sense.

I presume you mean if it doesn't make sense?

"Also, when you kill someone, most areas will start a timer. When the timer is up, the "faction" will assume you did it. The duration of the timer could be hours, days, weeks, whatever." That faction could be a gang, a mob, a group of whores, raiders, slaves, or everyone in an area. It just depends on the area and what makes sense.

Example (from my understanding): You walk into a landowners ranch. Outside are his typical goon squad but inside it's just the head guy alone. You knife the man quietly and leave. As it was a silent kill, none of the goons outside heard the noise so when the PC walks out, nobody starts combat. The PC walks away. An hour passes and the goon squad now know of the murder and guess that the PC did it (Simulation that PC was the only one there and an hour is enough time for a goon to have gone inside and found the boss dead). When the PC re-enters the area, the goons float lines like "That's him! He's the last guy who saw the boss before he died! He must've done it!" as they draw weapons and attack.

The timer is used in areas where it is safe for the NPCs to assume "that new stranger guy that was here" must have done it. If it's not safe to assume, then there won't be a timer.

Perhaps with an example being Gizmo in Fallout 1? If the PC can sneak in without being spotted and knife him silently, then no-one will suspect the PC did it, as Gizmo had so many enemies. They're likely to blame Killian and trigger a war with Darkwater's group, rather than attack the PC.

How many times will a "Bad Guy" see the PC and start shooting because the "Bad Guy" instinctively knows that the PC is his enemy?

... why not? If someone is ordered to defend an area against attackers, and they see someone they don't recognize, you don't want them to start shooting?

No, I want them to give the PC flowers and cookies! That comment was more about NPC's 'knowing' about a kill the PC made in some other out of the way region and previously non-hostile NPCs (police officers, guards) meet the PC after the kill and know he did it.

I think my only outstanding question is the luring aspect. I can understand a silent kill in certain situations (as mentioned above), what I'm unsure on is how the PC is going to lure someone away. If luring is a game mechanic (as in Commando's or Thief) then all the PC needs to do is 'use the right object' and he can have any NPC he wants running to him all alone. The other option is if it's scripted (meaning the NPC needs some kind of script which specificially tells him to be 'lured away' when something happens. IE: Dialogue, noticing an open door, seeing footprints), then it will only occur for that one guy on level 19.

 

[Briareus]

The question that needs to be asked is: How do you lure an NPC away? Is it done through dialogue? Does the PC throw a pack of cigarettes on the ground near the intended target? Does the PC use a noisemaker arrow and have the NPC come and investigate the noise...?

MYSTARY

For that matter, why should they be able to reach for their weapon, or shout for help, or run away, etc., etc.?

That's a good question. Why would you? If you can get them in the alley without them suspecting anything, start combat mode and bump them off in your first combat turn (insta-kill) then there's no chance of them doing anything.

You're question is based on the assumption that the PC can lure someone into a private area without the NPC being concerned about it. That may not always be the case. If so, wouldn't you expect them to go in with weapon at the ready?

... because the PC won't actually be able to lure anyone away unless it's scripted, right?

BZZZ. Wrong. Try again. You won't be able to lure people away if it makes sense.

I presume you mean if it doesn't make sense?

Yup!

"Also, when you kill someone, most areas will start a timer. When the timer is up, the "faction" will assume you did it. The duration of the timer could be hours, days, weeks, whatever." That faction could be a gang, a mob, a group of whores, raiders, slaves, or everyone in an area. It just depends on the area and what makes sense.

Example (from my understanding): You walk into a landowners ranch. Outside are his typical goon squad but inside it's just the head guy alone. You knife the man quietly and leave. As it was a silent kill, none of the goons outside heard the noise so when the PC walks out, nobody starts combat. The PC walks away. An hour passes and the goon squad now know of the murder and guess that the PC did it (Simulation that PC was the only one there and an hour is enough time for a goon to have gone inside and found the boss dead). When the PC re-enters the area, the goons float lines like "That's him! He's the last guy who saw the boss before he died! He must've done it!" as they draw weapons and attack.

Yeah, that sounds about right.

The timer is used in areas where it is safe for the NPCs to assume "that new stranger guy that was here" must have done it. If it's not safe to assume, then there won't be a timer.

Perhaps with an example being Gizmo in Fallout 1? If the PC can sneak in without being spotted and knife him silently, then no-one will suspect the PC did it, as Gizmo had so many enemies. They're likely to blame Killian and trigger a war with Darkwater's group, rather than attack the PC.

Right. It wouldn't make sense to assume the PC did it in this situation.

How many times will a "Bad Guy" see the PC and start shooting because the "Bad Guy" instinctively knows that the PC is his enemy?

... why not? If someone is ordered to defend an area against attackers, and they see someone they don't recognize, you don't want them to start shooting?

No, I want them to give the PC flowers and cookies! That comment was more about NPC's 'knowing' about a kill the PC made in some other out of the way region and previously non-hostile NPCs (police officers, guards) meet the PC after the kill and know he did it.

Oh, I see. Sorry, my bad.

I think my only outstanding question is the luring aspect. I can understand a silent kill in certain situations (as mentioned above), what I'm unsure on is how the PC is going to lure someone away. If luring is a game mechanic (as in Commando's or Thief) then all the PC needs to do is 'use the right object' and he can have any NPC he wants running to him all alone. The other option is if it's scripted (meaning the NPC needs some kind of script which specificially tells him to be 'lured away' when something happens. IE: Dialogue, noticing an open door, seeing footprints), then it will only occur for that one guy on level 19.

It can be both, really. We can have the luring be scripted for one guy, and we have generic methods as well. Which one will get used when, where, and how often is the purview of the designer for the area.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

It was 'network issues'.

The question that needs to be asked is: How do you lure an NPC away?

MYSTARY

You're an evil man. An evil, evil man.

If you can get them in the alley without them suspecting anything, start combat mode and bump them off in your first combat turn (insta-kill) then there's no chance of them doing anything.

You're question is based on the assumption that the PC can lure someone into a private area without the NPC being concerned about it. That may not always be the case. If so, wouldn't you expect them to go in with weapon at the ready?

In cases where they're suspicious, yes. But as you say, that's not always the case.

Is luring, or the ability for silent-kills based on a skill? Seems to me you'd need to check a few things. First of all, if the PC sneaks his way into an area without being seen, he should be able to kill a few people and get away with it. No-one saw him, so he can get away with it (high Sneak skill). So you need to check if anyone saw the PC in the area around the time of the kill. Of course, the PC also needs good enough combat skills and presumably, the right weapon, in order to perform a silent enough kill (high combat skills in perhaps melee for a one-hit knife kill, with the right knife). With those two skills, the PC could sneak into an area such as a building and take out one or two guys without being noticed.

However, doing it out in the open relies on the PC being able to lure people away and kill them in a quiet, out of the way area. I'm imagining a few 'filler' NPCs could be bumped off without too much worry. Take out a slagger or two on the edge of town just for fun. Of course, you'd need a timer for that, so that the guards get suspicious when the town's population starts slowly disappearing. Although in that case, the guards shouldn't presume the PC did it. They'd need to become aware that people have been murdered (or just gone missing, depending on whether the PC can move and hide bodies) but not aware that the PC did it (again, depending on the situation).

Sounds like fun!

We can have the luring be scripted for one guy, and we have generic methods as well. Which one will get used when, where, and how often is the purview of the designer for the area.

Sounds like you're designers have some work to do!

 

[Briareus]

Is luring, or the ability for silent-kills based on a skill?

If you're asking if there is a "Luring Skill", then the answer is no. However, your ability to lure individuals away will be based on different skills at different times during the process as well as different skills for different methods.