Fallout 2 mod Change Weapon damage to real

[Gizmojunk]

They are going to love you here.

*Yes, that was a legitimate gameplay answer, because yes, ammunition gets expensive and some people certainly do choose to switch to [free to use] melee weapons when they can avoid 'wasting' ammo on unarmed and/or animal opponents; both of which tend not to have much loot to justify expending the bullets (or fuel, in the case of flamers). This can happen particularly on random wasteland encounters that are often seen as trash mobs.

 

[Vali]

They are going to love you here.

*Yes, that was a legitimate gameplay answer, because yes, ammunition gets expensive and some people certainly do choose to switch to [free to use] melee weapons when they can avoid 'wasting' ammo on unarmed and/or animal opponents; both of which tend not to have much loot to justify expending the bullets (or fuel, in the case of flamers). This can happen particularly on random wasteland encounters that are often seen as trash mobs.

I dont need the love from people here, i have enough womens for that.

Ammo will be more limited, some weapons like smg, ak now only have burst fire.

It will not be like a shooter you have tons of ammo and enjoy.

And do not forget one thing the enemies also have guns so you don't get overpowered.

I am thinking a system like fallout 1, items in shop dont respawn anymore, and cost more.

And in random encounters you find now less ammo.

 

[Gizmojunk]

I dont need the love from people here, i have enough womens for that.

Isn't this indignantly digging the hole deeper?

• "Ammo will be more limited, some weapons like smg, ak now only have burst fire."

This is taking away a tactical choice from combat in a turn based game; that's what these games are about. This diminishes [even wastes] the strengths of the mechanics, as the player can no longer choose to conserve ammo, or to risk the expenditure in the hope of damaging multiple enemies.

It would become simply an expensive/ wasteful option to use on a single target; all the more reason to hoard ammo, and to use melee when they can. Also it costs more APs of course—because it takes more time. That means that many PCs will only be able shoot once per round, if they choose to attack, and they will waste bullets doing it. They will no longer be able (with these burst weapons) to shoot at two non-adjacent targets; that can mean the difference between (them or their allies) surviving or not.

• "It will not be like a shooter you have tons of ammo and enjoy."

Modern shooters aren't real shooters; real shooters limit the ammo, and almost make it a puzzle to survive the map through to the end. Ammo scarcity is not a bad thing IMO, but players who specialize their characters in firearms expect to be shooting most of the time, and might be quite irked by the lack and expense of ammo.

• "And do not forget one thing the enemies also have guns so you don't get overpowered."

To turn a phrase, I think you might have guaranteed they will get overpowered...
overpowered as in outmatched.

• "I am thinking a system like fallout 1, items in shop dont respawn anymore, and cost more."

If the stores don't restock, it takes away from the illusion of a living world. Presumably other customers visit the merchants, and do their own bartering. A static merchant inventory implies that this doesn't happen; implies that the merchants only survive on the player's patronage.

• "And in random encounters you find now less ammo."

Which furthers the aversion to 'wasting' ammo on random encounters.

In the film Mad Max, he had only a few shells for his gun and no clue if they'd fire... which was great for a story, but not usually great for a game. Not if the PC is developed towards relying on a gun; where they start losing the moment they use their last shot.

Fallout can be played without using a gun; but in practice, one survives by letting others do the shooting. Death is permanent in the game and healing is restricted; the player will often lose their companions—which are finite, and serve as the main equalizer now.

So any PC not specialized for using a gun will not live very long, and (as was mentioned before) that kills the reason to specialize in unarmed & melee. Among those who play this mod, I would expect to see players specialize in guns, but use them to cripple or knock down opponents, in order to close the distance and switch to the (cheaper to use) melee weapons & HtH fighting.

*BTW, it is possible to unload an enemy's weapon (steal the ammo) if they get knocked out.

 

[Vali]

Isn't this indignantly digging the hole deeper?

• "Ammo will be more limited, some weapons like smg, ak now only have burst fire."

This is taking away a tactical choice from combat in a turn based game; that's what these games are about. This diminishes [even wastes] the strengths of the mechanics, as the player can no longer choose to conserve ammo, or to risk the expenditure in the hope of damaging multiple enemies.

It would become simply an expensive/ wasteful option to use on a single target; all the more reason to hoard ammo, and to use melee when they can. Also it costs more APs of course—because it takes more time. That means that many PCs will only be able shoot once per round, if they choose to attack, and they will waste bullets doing it. They will no longer be able (with these burst weapons) to shoot at two non-adjacent targets; that can mean the difference between (them or their allies) surviving or not.

• "It will not be like a shooter you have tons of ammo and enjoy."

Modern shooters aren't real shooters; real shooters limit the ammo, and almost make it a puzzle to survive the map through to the end. Ammo scarcity is not a bad thing IMO, but players who specialize their characters in firearms expect to be shooting most of the time, and might be quite irked by the lack and expense of ammo.

• "And do not forget one thing the enemies also have guns so you don't get overpowered."

To turn a phrase, I think you might have guaranteed they will get overpowered...
overpowered as in outmatched.

• "I am thinking a system like fallout 1, items in shop dont respawn anymore, and cost more."

If the stores don't restock, it takes away from the illusion of a living world. Presumably other customers visit the merchants, and do their own bartering. A static merchant inventory implies that this doesn't happen; implies that the merchants only survive on the player's patronage.

• "And in random encounters you find now less ammo."

Which furthers the aversion to 'wasting' ammo on random encounters.

In the film Mad Max, he had only a few shells for his gun and no clue if they'd fire... which was great for a story, but not usually great for a game. Not if the PC is developed towards relying on a gun; where they start losing the moment they use their last shot.

No you have now a really survival aspect.

Ammo is no more created like prewar time you only can find the rest of ammo left.

They arent overpowered only some boses like frank horrigan, where this make sense. Its now only a bad idea to attack a guy with a pistol, only with your knife.

Why not this system works really good in fallout 1, you know you have limited items like ammo.

Random encounters are only give living aspect to wasteland, now it will not use to spawn xp, money and ammo.

A AK as sample can take out easy most enemies but you lose many ammo, so you better spare some for single shot weapons.

 

[Gizmojunk]

Setting aside the bit about 'taking away actions being a bad idea for TB combat'... how have you changed the behavior of the combat shotgun? Does it only shoot bursts?

• No you have now a really survival aspect.
• Ammo is no more created like prewar time you only can find the rest of ammo left.

These are fine if you want them—it's your mod, sure... but these were never aspect of the Fallout series; it was never a survivalist game, and had intelligent and resourceful inhabitants.

Algernon would be able to make ammo; Myron (just for instance) would be able to help. The world is in active recovery from the first game, and only after Bethesda got control over it did it start becoming the crap that it is now and remains, and yet will be if they make another one. Yeah, New Vegas has the survival aspect. It's a spin off.

 

[Vali]

Setting aside the bit about 'taking away actions being a bad idea for TB combat'... how have you changed the behavior of the combat shotgun? Does it only shoot bursts?

The combat shotgun have only single shot now.

 

[Gizmojunk]

The combat shotgun have only single shot now.

Then what's the point of it? Is it cheaper than it was before? Is it more damaging?—how does that work?

Have you considered that the effective range of the guns change with burst & single fire modes? Targets that were out of burst range could sometimes still be hit using single fire. This reduces the effective range of the weapons for limiting them to burst only.

 

[Vali]

Then what's the point of it? Is it cheaper than it was before? Is it more damaging?—how does that work?

Its range is now reduced, have no more 12 shots. The weapon have big damage, but you need to get near that this weapon is effective.

Every weapons now have pro and contra.

A shotgun is a shotgun not a assault rifle.

 

[Gizmojunk]

Its range used to be farther for using single fire... So it's lost burst fire and effective range?

*If it is single shot, and uses the same ammo... how can it do greater damage?
When it used to... that was because of burst fire.

 

[Vali]

Its range used to be farther for using single fire... So it's lost burst fire and effective range?

*If it is single shot, and uses the same ammo... how can it do greater damage?
When it used to... that was because of burst fire.

Have you ever tried a real shotgun?they are only effective in rooms or when you are near a target. The shotguns also need more strength and Ap to fire.

 

[Hassknecht]

Depending on barrell length, buckshot has an effect range of about 30 m. Shotguns tend to be better at longer ranges than people think.
Anyway, sounds like a fun idea, but the lack of movement options in Fallout make it a bit limited. There's no cover beyond going out of line-of-sight, so every single turn you need to set aside at least two action points to get out of "cover" and back into it. It's not like Jagged Alliance 2 (Fallout: Tactics) where you have stances, so tactical options are limited. It'd be like STALKER in that you get one-shotted a lot, but without the tactical options of cover.

 

[Gizmojunk]

The regular game has five shotgun styles; each is mechanically different. The sawed off is usable single handed, and has the shortest range... but does comparable damage with the regular shotgun—which has double the range at the cost of two hand operation.

The other three differ enough to be distinct. The combat shotgun advantage was number of rounds, and burst fire...the single shot damage difference is negligible.

How does it stand out now, next to the regular shotguns? So imagine the player finally—finally acquires the [mod-altered] combat shotgun... Do you think they will be excited or disappointed? Why would anyone manufacture these?

*I'm going to guess that the other two auto-shotguns are removed from the game?

 

[Vali]

@Hassknecht
Yes youre right i also had the idea of place items in world where you get cover, but players will use this to trick the KI.

@Gizmojunk
You speak about the vanilla game, i speak about a mod that will change this.

I only have Shotgun,Sawed off shotgun
And combat Shotgun edited, the two other shotguns will replace by other weapons. This dont be shotguns.

 

[Gizmojunk]

Well yeah. That's why I mentioned it as those in the regular game.

What I was trying to point out is that the player expectation of a 'Combat Shotgun' might make the one you describe be a bit anticlimactic if it's only marginally better than conventional shotguns; and possibly not as good as the sawed-off.

 

[Vali]

Well yeah. That's why I mentioned it as those in the regular game.

What I was trying to point out is that the player expectation of a 'Combat Shotgun' might make the one you describe be a bit anticlimactic if it's only marginally better than conventional shotguns; and possibly not as good as the sawed-off.

It have more ammo like the other two, and its range is a bit more.

There is no more a weapon that is the best in game, High Tec weapons also have many changes and all other guns.

The biggest problem is now for sniper rifles because they have long range, i am thinking to give them less ammo and more ap and strength need.

 

[dudejo001]

Also, there's the issue of translating real-life into Fallout's hit points system. There's a wide spectrum of wounding tolerance across the 20-ish character levels.

IRL, it's impossible for anyone to become so physically tough that bullets can't cause massive trauma. In Fallout, it's literally impossible to kill even a moderately leveled character with a bullet to the unprotected chest, let alone through body armor. The surviving Fallout character will then proceed to return fire as if nothing happened.

In theory, this can happen in real life but you need a combination of weak firearms (like a black powder .38 caliber fired out of a small revolver) and a target on some good drugs to fight off the impact shock (like Fallout's Psycho).

 

[Vali]

Also, there's the issue of translating real-life into Fallout's hit points system. There's a wide spectrum of wounding tolerance across the 20-ish character levels.

IRL, it's impossible for anyone to become so physically tough that bullets can't cause massive trauma. In Fallout, it's literally impossible to kill even a moderately leveled character with a bullet to the unprotected chest, let alone through body armor. The surviving Fallout character will then proceed to return fire as if nothing happened.

In theory, this can happen in real life but you need a combination of weak firearms (like a black powder .38 caliber fired out of a small revolver) and a target on some good drugs to fight off the impact shock (like Fallout's Psycho).

In silent storm weapons have bleeding effect, so you lose every turn hp when you need treat it.

The player character is like all other you cant stand with tons of ammo in your body.

No Armor makes you immortal now, even the Power Armor have no chance against AP ammo.

 

[Gizmojunk]

IRL, it's impossible for anyone to become so physically tough that bullets can't cause massive trauma.

Hitpoints don't exist in real life; they are an RPG abstraction for sake of common mechanics, but they should be considered as a reflection of general durability plus life (and combat) experience. This is why a 6'7" fresh recruit, built like the hulk, though inexperienced, can have equal or less hitpoints than their Ghandi sized commander—who has 15 years infantry experience, and can hold their own in a [dirty] fight with that recruit.

This life experience affects their behavior, and their tactics—It's the rookie with his head up and the commander squatting with his back to the wall... and when they both get shot (for equal damage), the commander's wounds are not quite as severe... because he wasn't as easy a target. Hitpoints cannot be taken 1:1, because it will never fully make sense when the more experienced character has more hitpoints to hedge their survival; balancing it out over the long term.

Is this at all like real life? Of course not; it's a loose abstraction of it, for sake of simpler damage rules.
______________

If the idea is to somehow translate this to real life simulation, then everyone's hitpoints need to be lowered, and capped based on weight & other stats, while the higher level characters need extra traits, perks, or Luck bonuses that impose an accuracy and critical hit penalty either randomly, or in certain situations.

Not unlike how D&D has dodge bonuses that raise the armor protection—technically, but these are lost when the PC cannot reasonably dodge anything... like when they are surprised, unconscious, or tied up. The commander and the recruit are both easy targets when tied up in front of a firing squad.

 

[Vali]

Hitpoints don't exist in real life; they are an RPG abstraction for sake of common mechanics, but they should be considered as a reflection of general durability plus life (and combat) experience. This is why a 6'7" fresh recruit, built like the hulk, though inexperienced, can have equal or less hitpoints than their Ghandi sized commander—who has 15 years infantry experience, and can hold their own in a [dirty] fight with that recruit.

This life experience affects their behavior, and their tactics—It's the rookie with his head up and the commander squatting with his back to the wall... and when they both get shot (for equal damage), the commander's wounds are not quite as severe... because he wasn't as easy a target. Hitpoints cannot be taken 1:1, because it will never fully make sense when the more experienced character has more hitpoints to hedge their survival; balancing it out over the long term.

Is this at all like real life? Of course not; it's a loose abstraction of it, for sake of simpler damage rules.
______________

If the idea is to somehow translate this to real life simulation, then everyone's hitpoints need to be lowered, and capped based on weight & other stats, while the higher level characters need extra traits, perks, or Luck bonuses that impose an accuracy and critical hit penalty either randomly, or in certain situations.

Not unlike how D&D has dodge bonuses that raise the armor protection—technically, but these are lost when the PC cannot reasonably dodge anything... like when they are surprised, unconscious, or tied up. The commander and the recruit are both easy targets when tied up in front of a firing squad.

I making a mod, not a new game.

You cant stand anymore more than 2 shoots.

I only change items, and some maps and maybe some scripts.

The world will feels more like real world, but i know that the game have limitations.

And Hp stand in a RPG for your blood.

 

[Matt Drax]

And Hp stand in a RPG for your blood.

Ah yea, now I get it why I have exchange my battle scarred buttocks meatbag tanks of around 5~6 liters (thats 1½ gallons for the imperial measurement crowd) every year for bigger ones, because I get more blood the older/more experienced I get... NOT! Is that what the NVA teached in the days?
Because I sure know the Bundeswehr doesn't ^^"