Character Fog of War for Behind

[phoenixzs]

When the Fallout came out the Westwood studios launched a game that could be called a Diablo clone;NOX.

In NOx character couldnt see the 90 degrees of his back which was constantly covered with Fog of War.But ofcourse when the character changed view angel the Fog of War changed also blocking still that back 90 percent.

I think it could be a good idea to implent to fallout if it turns out isometric.ofcourse the landscaper wont darken out only the NPCs and characters that can move should be affected by the fog covering them.An interesting add on could be that with high perception skill you could actually "sense" or "hear" what is going on behind you represented with shadowy characters and such.

It could add the game a sense of "insecureness" since your dont really know what is in your behind and make the game more realistic without cutting any fun from it.So what do you think?

 

[Sander]

Frustrating and entirely fucks over tactical combat.

 

[JR Jansen]

It isn't such a bad idea but i partly agree with Sander.
It would be frustrating at times but imo doesn't fuck over tactical combat at all as long as you have the choice of turning around in combat. But just as i got seasick in nwn by having to rotate the damned camera, i would probably get the same feeling with this.

 

[Sander]

No, it fucks over tactical combat because you remove a shitload of the tactics related to usage of the terrain and environment.
Having to turn around then only becomes a burden that frustrates players heavily.

 

[Angrim]

I think the lack of ability to see behind you was one of the most annoying things in Silent Storm. Or maybe it was my lack of skill in tactical strategy.

Go figure.

 

[JR Jansen]

No, it fucks over tactical combat because you remove a shitload of the tactics related to usage of the terrain and environment.
Having to turn around then only becomes a burden that frustrates players heavily.

Not when you play TB. You could take your time and have a look but i do agree it would be to frustrating.

 

[Sander]

Not when you play TB. You could take your time and have a look but i do agree it would be to frustrating.

Yep. Sure you could look around, but if it doesn't cost anything whatsoever to turn around and look around, then what's the point of having the fog of war in the first place? A test of the player's memory?

 

[zioburosky13]

Jagged Alliance has the same thing but instead of enviroment, you can't see the enemy until they are in your character's sight. It adds more tension during combat because you know they are out there but can't do anything until you see/hear them.

Brilliant. 8)

And NoX sucks..seriously.

 

[phoenixzs]

Yes NOX sucks I know

Still I cant see why its frustrating or fucks combat.Lets say for 3 action point you could turn around or maybe none.Thats not so bad,hardly it fucks tactical combat.Also imagine a turn going on an something like that is read on pipboy
"You are shot from behing for 20 damage"But if you dont enough perception or awarness skill you cannot know the which guy behind you was the one.Maybe you are going to waste your turn on an unskilled dued with a knife instead of the other dangerous guy with SMG.Or some other guy entered combat when your were fighting and suddenly you are shot from behind from an unexpected enemy.Doesnt that make it realistic, fun and more like a situation that can happen in combat?

On the other hand is more realstic and adds another element to think of.If all the strategies involved 3 elements like rock scisor paper thing it would be boring.Some elements like this are flavour of games.

I dont think you would be consider ommiting it if it were involved in the first fallout and on the contrary would be defending it.So I see the objections so far as a "habit and taste" problem rather then real game mechanic and taste problems.

I think it comes to personal tastes nothing more in this matter.I also like the line of sight idea from jagged alliance.It will sure add a tension if you did not know who is sneaking behid the corner of the wall.I totall support it.

 

[Sander]

Yes NOX sucks I know

Still I cant see why its frustrating or fucks combat.Lets say for 3 action point you could turn around.Thats not so bad,hardly it fucks tactical combat.On the other hand is more realstic and adds another element to think of.If all the strategies involved 3 elements like rock scisor paper thing it would be boring.

...
This is called feature creep, and a really shitty line of reasoning. You don't add things just because you can add them, you add them because they are needed and truly add something to the game.

I dont think you would be consider ommiting it if it were involved in the first fallout and on the contrary would be defending it.So I see the objections so far as a "habit and taste" problem rather then real game mechanic and taste problems.

Not really. Think about it: how would this work in the engine? Does this mean that you suddenly lose the knowledge of everything that was behind you the moment you enter combat? Or do you add this fog of war even when there is no combat happening at all?
Having to constantly turn your character seems like a rather silly burden, really.

I think it comes to personal tastes nothing more in this matter.I also like the line of sight idea from jagged alliance.It will sure add a tension if you did not know who is sneaking behid the corner of the wall.I totall support it.

Line of sight is probably a better idea, because that adds the idea of people hiding behind walls, for instance.

 

[phoenixzs]

...
This is called feature creep, and a really shitty line of reasoning. You don't add things just because you can add them, you add them because they are needed and truly add something to the game.

So what? you think its not important and I think it is.Its important for me "not to see" my behind when there is chance of this feature to be in the game.I think it adds to the feel and strategy.You dont think so thats fine by me but still there is no logical statement in your sentence that happens to be a "point" that should change my mind.If you want to encourage people I advise you to talk on "points" not on "how points are laid out".

Not really. Think about it: how would this work in the engine? Does this mean that you suddenly lose the knowledge of everything that was behind you the moment you enter combat? Or do you add this fog of war even when there is no combat happening at all?
Having to constantly turn your character seems like a rather silly burden, really.

First you yourself came up with very interesting solution by yourself with some thinking.Why should be so difficult to implent something that has been done in NOX years before.If the developers decide it should be in I am sure they will come up with nice ideas.

And why should you turn all the times in a turn.First finish what is on your table and then move on to the next one.I wouldnt change my line of sight if there isnt a huge damage output from behind.And kill first the ones infront of me.

Line of sight is probably a better idea, because that adds the idea of people hiding behind walls, for instance.

I also think that line of sight is a good idea. But still your "back" isnt involved in your "line of sight" by the way.

 

[Sander]

So what? you think its not important and I think it is.Its important for me "not to see" my behind when there is chance of this feature to be in the game.I think it adds to the feel and strategy.You dont think so thats fine by me but still there is no logical statement in your sentence that happens to be a "point" that should change my mind.If you want to encourage people I advise you to talk on "points" not on "how points are laid out".

I'd advise you to learn to read and actually make some points regarding game design yourself. Saying something is so does not make it so.

First you yourself came up with very interesting solution by yourself with some thinking.Why should be so difficult to implent something that has been done in NOX years before.

Who said anything about it being (technically) difficult to implement?

If the developers decide it should be in I am sure they will come up with nice ideas.

Yeah, that's right, 'I don't know how it can be done, but they will!!!!!'
And you talk about *my* arguments. Fuck.

And why should you turn all the times in a turn.First finish what is on your table and then move on to the next one.I wouldnt change my line of sight if there isnt a huge damage output from behind.And kill first the ones infront of me.

*sigh*
Your battle tactics are hardly the point here. The point is that a system like that requires you to manually turn your character around. This can happen a lot in combat where people actually, *gasp*, move. Or because, hey, you want to take out the other guy.
If there's no penalty to turning around, it's completely senseless to add it. If there is a penalty, things might be different.

 

[phoenixzs]

If the developers decide it should be in I am sure they will come up with nice ideas.

Yeah, that's right, 'I don't know how it can be done, but they will!!!!!'
And you talk about *my* arguments. Fuck.

I didnt say I dont have any ideas about how it can be done I just said its not that hard to think of some basic solutions thats all.Please just not paraphrase everything in your mind so that suits your idea of logic.Some times words are used just for what they are meant for.

And why should you turn all the times in a turn.First finish what is on your table and then move on to the next one.I wouldnt change my line of sight if there isnt a huge damage output from behind.And kill first the ones infront of me.

*sigh*
Your battle tactics are hardly the point here. The point is that a system like that requires you to manually turn your character around. This can happen a lot in combat where people actually, *gasp*, move. Or because, hey, you want to take out the other guy.
If there's no penalty to turning around, it's completely senseless to add it. If there is a penalty, things might be different.

So when did clicking with mouse once in maybe 3 turns become a too much burden?And is it that much technically challing to make a character turn+move ototmaticaly? Also it may or may not cost action points(probably a little though).What will be the difference I tell you.While you end your turn you can be shot from behind from your blind area and you dont know who is there.That adds to the feeling.You get nervous and exited at the same time.An unknown factor thats it.Maybe you turn and see a person with SMG then you forget about that guy after you re-turn.Then suddenly you arent attacked by a SMG from behind anymore and then "BAMM" you are on the floor.While you werent noticing the guy put a Sledgehammer on walked that distance and knocked you from behind.Thats the feel I want to get,I want to be on constant alert to watch my back.

And Believe me I know a thing or two about game programing.Just because you dont like somebodies ideas does not give you the right to bash those persons without knowing actually who they are. I understood the feature creep concept in the first place but still I don't see it in that category like you do. This has nothing to do with my knowledge of game programing or gaming or yours .If you dont like the idea just say it so don't give illogical examples to prove your self.And please carry on the discussion withcivilised maner.

 

[Morpoggel]

[If you dont like the idea just say it

I don't like the idea. I'd rather have a line of sight system like in Fallout: Tactics, because this seems kinda dull to me.

 

[Brother None]

Holy shit, it's JR, people, MOMMAFUCKING JR IS BACK

 

[Sander]

I didnt say I dont have any ideas about how it can be done I just said its not that hard to think of some basic solutions thats all.

No, you said "I'm sure the devs who do this can think of something great."
That's a useless argument since it completely bypasses *everything* pertaining to the original argument. If you think they'd do this, then explain how.

Please just not paraphrase everything in your mind so that suits your idea of logic.Some times words are used just for what they are meant for.

Please don't bitch about arguments instead of making them.
Oh snap, that's what you just bitched about at me!
For fuck's sake, man, *make an argument*. Again: saying it can be done is a statement, not an argument.

So when did clicking with mouse once in maybe 3 turns become a too much burden?

And you talk about me twisting words.
Understand this, phoenix: *superfluous* actions are never fun and *always* a burden.

And is it that much technically challing to make a character turn+move ototmaticaly?

Ehm, no, but since you can't see anything behind you you can't have the character stay in place and turn *without manually ordering it*. If there's no point to this but to look around, it quickly becomes annoying.

Also it may or may not cost action points(probably a little though).What will be the difference I tell you.

The difference is very important, considering the fact that making it not cost action points makes it a very useless and purely frustrating addition to a combat system. It'd add the 'thrill' of being shot in the back, then turning the character to see who it is, turning back to fire at someone else. If you do this constantly, the thought that creeps into people's heads is 'Why the hell did they add this fog of war in the first place?'

By making turning around cost a single action point (equivalent to moving a hex), you incorporate it into the combat system and hence make it a part of the tactical combat. If you don't do that, then it becomes a silly, largely cosmetic, addition.

While you end your turn you can be shot from behind from your blind area and you dont know who is there.That adds to the feeling.You get nervous and exited at the same time.An unknown factor thats it.Maybe you turn and see a person with SMG then you forget about that guy after you re-turn.Then suddenly you arent attacked by a SMG from behind anymore and then "BAMM" you are on the floor.While you werent noticing the guy put a Sledgehammer on walked that distance and knocked you from behind.Thats the feel I want to get,I want to be on constant alert to watch my back.

See, isn't it much better to actually come up with arguments for once?
because now, I *do* see how this could be a nice addition. That is, if it were incorporated in the combat system and the characters perception was taken into account to determine how much the character notices from behind him. Also, I'd add in 'ghosts' of last-known whereabouts and only do this in combat.

And Believe me I know a thing or two about game programing.Just because you dont like somebodies ideas does not give you the right to bash those persons without knowing actually who they are.

Eh...I insulted you personally instead of your reasoning? Where, exactly?

I understood the feature creep concept in the first place but still I don't see it in that category like you do.

Right, and where did I claim you didn't?

This has nothing to do with my knowledge of game programing or gaming or yours .

And I implied this had anything to do with that, where, exactly?

If you dont like the idea just say it so don't give illogical examples to prove your self.

In a discussion people generally come up with arguments and examples instead of making up grievances in an attempt to get the moral high ground.
Please do the former, and not the latter.

And please carry on the discussion withcivilised maner.

I'd advise you to cut out the bullshit holier-than-thou attitude and actually make a point.

PS: There's supposed to be a space after every comma and full stop. Please use that, it'd make your posts a lot easier to read.

 

[SuAside]

for some games a perceptionbased line of "sight" could be good. but you should remember that hearing etc also falls under perception, so it is not because he's behind you, that you cant "sense" him.

however as it is stated above, this is not something for FO... the aim is entirely different. eventhough you might argue that in FO you couldnt see inside buildings unless you were in it, you could still simply activate combat and see the character lineouts.

it's a sense of tabletop & tactics versus ability & reality.

 

[phoenixzs]

While you end your turn you can be shot from behind from your blind area and you dont know who is there.That adds to the feeling.You get nervous and exited at the same time.An unknown factor thats it.Maybe you turn and see a person with SMG then you forget about that guy after you re-turn.Then suddenly you arent attacked by a SMG from behind anymore and then "BAMM" you are on the floor.While you werent noticing the guy put a Sledgehammer on walked that distance and knocked you from behind.Thats the feel I want to get,I want to be on constant alert to watch my back.

See, isn't it much better to actually come up with arguments for once?
because now, I *do* see how this could be a nice addition. That is, if it were incorporated in the combat system and the characters perception was taken into account to determine how much the character notices from behind him. Also, I'd add in 'ghosts' of last-known whereabouts and only do this in combat.

I was just using the same argument from the begining.I n my point of view. But still I am happy that you finally get the idea.Then I do not need the answer all the other quotes you sent since it doesnt add anything to the idea anyway.(Believe me I could ).And the thing I wrote was an "example", not an argument.If you want argument backups with examples okay then. Next post will be so.

Special Note:And being polite is always good,swearing not at the right moment makes the effecr of swearing much less effective.