Characters, high intelligence, psions, etc. (G&T Split)

[Sander]

Don't be a nutjob. With a high intelligence you can avoid almost every gunfight (unless you go around fishing for random encounters with raiders or something). My point is - intelligence and agility/perception don't complement each other, but are interchangeable. My original point is - all attributes should be interchangeable, not just those two or three overpowered ones.

And my point is, is that that's completely unrealistic. Every attribute should be equally worthy, meaning that there are an equal amount of problems you can and cannot solve for each attribute, but not that you can solve everything with anything, because then what is the point of having those characteristics, and where is the challenge?

Nope, the kid was retarded through and through, he just had an inexplicable ability to factorize numbers faster than humanly possible. It's not as far-fetched as you think, there has been a number of recorded cases of people who are severely mentally handicapped, yet possess some preternatural talent, mostly mathematical.

Are you referring to autistic people? Because if so, they're usually seriously socially handicapped, but do not lack in Intelligence.
That said, that could be a really interesting perk in Fallout 3.

Well, if you think the reality is stretched too far, you can simply play the game with an alternate character (and in case of P&P roleplaying, the DM can ban such characters if he wishes). The rest of us can enjoy being lovable retards.

True, but do you really think that the beneficial effects of having for every possible encounter the possibility to fix it with every possible skill or attribute outweigh the hassle of and surreality of implementing it?
Again: I can't see anyone get into a random encounter where raiders attack and win that by, say, using their doctor skill.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Again: I can't see anyone get into a random encounter where raiders attack and win that by, say, using their doctor skill.

Neither can I, but I can imagine the raiders capturing the character as a valuable slave, provided that he doesn't just stand around and wait for death (assuming the raiders are of the sort that shoots first and asks questions later), but rather yells: "DON'T SHOOT, I'M A DOCTOR!" or holds up a sign that says: "OMG LOLLERZ IM A DOCTOR DONT FRAG ME PLZ!!!11".

This kind of scenario is perfectly feasible in a good P&P session, but requires a lot of additional scripting in a CRPG. As you said yourself, it is a lot of hassle. There are a few designers who might even say that such an approach requires exponentially more work.

 

[quietfanatic]

Ratty's idea would be very nice, but I can't see people putting in such an incredible amount of work into unlikely possibilities. It is too extreme. I would be willing to pay more for a CRPG that had staggering support for any character build in a clever way, but I just can't see it happening any time soon.

 

[IgnatzKrebs]

...except agility, perception and intelligence, right? Because as it stands, those attributes suffice in 99% of situations.

Not on their own they don't. I've never used Intelligence to kill raiders, for instance, or agility and perception to win a fist-fight.

Neither can I, but I can imagine the raiders capturing the character as a valuable slave, provided that he doesn't just stand around and wait for death (assuming the raiders are of the sort that shoots first and asks questions later), but rather yells: "DON'T SHOOT, I'M A DOCTOR!" or holds up a sign that says: "OMG LOLLERZ IM A DOCTOR DONT FRAG ME PLZ!!!11".

Why the hell shouldn't you be able to utilize Agility and Perception in a fistfight? Ever seen a chop-socky kungfoo movie? (Think like that 5-pace heart explosion thingy from Kill Bill Vol. 2.) There's always a vulnerable spot to be found, a high Perception character will notice their opponent generally favoring a leg, or frequently adopting a certain tactic, and find a way to exploit it by dashing in and deftly taking advantage of whatever vulnerability is present with their great Agility. High strength wouldn't be the deciding factor in such a fight (you know, that judo crap about using one's own strength against them) unless you were some kind of drunk bar brawler. Kinda like the Finesse trait vs the Heavy Handed trait... And using a high Intelligence score to defeat raiders...hm.
Like Ratty said outsmarting them could be as viable (or nearly as viable) an option as the "mow 'em down" approach. A high Intelligence (and/or Charisma) character could convince the aggressors that he is more useful to them alive rather than dead. Another farfetched idea... This is gonna sound stupid but what if your character could demonstrate psychic/psionic powers with high Intelligence (remember those Psykers [sic] from Fallout 1? don't remember much about their capabilities, but you get the gist of it.) Mind-control a raider with a shotgun, have him turn on his friends... or maybe just pop their craniums like overripe cantaloupes. Use your imagination.

High agility, intelligence, and perception have been so damn important in all the Fallout games I've played... I don't see that as a coincedence. Those three should get you through 99% of the crap you get into, as Ratty suggests.

 

[Sander]

Why the hell shouldn't you be able to utilize Agility and Perception in a fistfight? Ever seen a chop-socky kungfoo movie? (Think like that 5-pace heart explosion thingy from Kill Bill Vol. 2.) There's always a vulnerable spot to be found, a high Perception character will notice their opponent generally favoring a leg, or frequently adopting a certain tactic, and find a way to exploit it by dashing in and deftly taking advantage of whatever vulnerability is present with their great Agility. High strength wouldn't be the deciding factor in such a fight (you know, that judo crap about using one's own strength against them) unless you were some kind of drunk bar brawler.

Cause, like, you know, Kung Fu totally fits Fallout and is all so realistic in a real fight.

Kinda like the Finesse trait vs the Heavy Handed trait... And using a high Intelligence score to defeat raiders...hm.
Like Ratty said outsmarting them could be as viable (or nearly as viable) an option as the "mow 'em down" approach. A high Intelligence (and/or Charisma) character could convince the aggressors that he is more useful to them alive rather than dead. Another farfetched idea... This is gonna sound stupid but what if your character could demonstrate psychic/psionic powers with high Intelligence (remember those Psykers [sic] from Fallout 1? don't remember much about their capabilities, but you get the gist of it.) Mind-control a raider with a shotgun, have him turn on his friends... or maybe just pop their craniums like overripe cantaloupes. Use your imagination.

Yeah, you're right, that did sound stupid.

 

[IgnatzKrebs]

Cause, like, you know, Kung Fu totally fits Fallout and is all so realistic in a real fight.

Ok, so when did Fallout become realistic? Kung fu crap doesn't exactly Fallouty but there were lots of immigrants from the Far East long before the supposed timeline divergence (WW2 Internment Camps for example), and it's more than possible that a few people knew or learned about such techniques. The fact that it's not exactly realistic gives it a "gee-whiz" quality that, while not being sci-fi, can sort of stand in the "gee-whiz" "Science!" "Buck Rogers" Fallout universe.

Kinda like the Finesse trait vs the Heavy Handed trait... And using a high Intelligence score to defeat raiders...hm.
Like Ratty said outsmarting them could be as viable (or nearly as viable) an option as the "mow 'em down" approach. A high Intelligence (and/or Charisma) character could convince the aggressors that he is more useful to them alive rather than dead. Another farfetched idea... This is gonna sound stupid but what if your character could demonstrate psychic/psionic powers with high Intelligence (remember those Psykers [sic] from Fallout 1? don't remember much about their capabilities, but you get the gist of it.) Mind-control a raider with a shotgun, have him turn on his friends... or maybe just pop their craniums like overripe cantaloupes. Use your imagination.

Yeah, you're right, that did sound stupid.

Again I think the "gee-whiz" "Science!" angle gives this idea a little wiggle-room. Psychics, prognosticators and people with really big craniums fit the setting in Fallout (plenty of pop-fiction comic book stuff along these lines in the 50's, and as years dragged on in the Fallout timeline who knows what else might have been concocted by would-be Stan Lees?)

 

[Sander]

Ok, so when did Fallout become realistic? Kung fu crap doesn't exactly Fallouty but there were lots of immigrants from the Far East long before the supposed timeline divergence (WW2 Internment Camps for example), and it's more than possible that a few people knew or learned about such techniques. The fact that it's not exactly realistic gives it a "gee-whiz" quality that, while not being sci-fi, can sort of stand in the "gee-whiz" "Science!" "Buck Rogers" Fallout universe.

For the exact same reason that katanas don't fit the Fallout setting this doesn't fit the Fallout setting. Go look some old sword threads up.

Again I think the "gee-whiz" "Science!" angle gives this idea a little wiggle-room. Psychics, prognosticators and people with really big craniums fit the setting in Fallout (plenty of pop-fiction comic book stuff along these lines in the 50's, and as years dragged on in the Fallout timeline who knows what else might have been concocted by would-be Stan Lees?)

Developing psychic powers generally doesn't really fit the Fallout setting, super-special beings like the Master excluded, and I never did think that felt right.
And this especially doesn't fit when you start to mind-control raiders. That's just silly, and a dumb attempt at putting something resembling magic in the game.

 

[Kan-Kerai]

That's just silly, and a dumb attempt at putting something resembling magic in the game.

Humm. Meaning Beth will undoubtedly implement something remarkably similar to it?

 

[RPGenius]

The only reason why indigo child doesn't work too well in Fallout is because a character with very low intellect is automatically barred from a large number of quests

You seem to be forgetting that Fallout is set in a wasteland, a place which doesn't forgive mistakes, and where Darwin's survival of the fittest comes into play in the largest way it could.
There are lots of situations where playing an indigo child just plain wouldn't work, just as playing any character will come up with a lot of situations where you're unable to do something you'd like to.

Also without intelligence beyond 1, speech doesn't go beyond basic sounds. If you take another one of Darwin's musings, that the ability to fully communicate what we need, sets us apart from animals. So view this as an animal, where survival of the fittest determines who controls the situation. Your character is a frail, slow, weakling, and definatly doesn't qualify as amongst the fittest.

 

[IgnatzKrebs]

That's just silly, and a dumb attempt at putting something resembling magic in the game.

I don't want magic in Fallout, agreed, but how do you put a line between "magic" and "Science!"-type stuff? There are some obvious guidelines evident in the Fallout ethos, but some are kinda blurry - the fact that the mutation the Psykers underwent to become what they are was even possible within Fallout gives rise to many possibilities - one could speculate as to how exactly the player character finds himself in the correct circumstances to have started a mutation of this sort until the end of time but eventually some more likely scenarios will float to the surface. It basically boils down to whether the people behind the keyboards who enjoy Fallout will WANT to be this kind of person. It is very much evident, Sander, that you don't like this idea and will resort to calling it "magic" to make it go away, which isn't fair to the idea itself. One could argue that one's ability to see the EXACT medical status of an enemy and know exactly how many rounds he's carrying and what weapon he wields is "magic". (Hello, Awareness.) Or that the reason the Supersledge requires no ammo to deliver the incredibly high level of kinetic energy to the target is "magic". 20 hexes? Puh-leeze. If someone throws a bolt of energy that melts someone where they stand, it's "magic". If they do it WITH A GUN, it's A-OK. Fuck that. If you took a gun back in time to about A.D. 50 or so, and proceeded to shoot people with it they would call it "magic". Is it? No. Is mind-control and people exploding others' heads like overripe honeydews a little over the top? Perhaps. What isn't over the top in Fallout? I'll tell you what, if you can find something somewhere in the vast library of Fallout knowledge that explains how they miniaturized a weapon so big most battleships or cruisers can not properly accomodate it into a freaking rifle (or better yet, a pistol!) or exactly HOW they managed to harness the raging power of fusion technology and put it in a god-damn backpack for Power Armor, then you can demand I drop the psionic concept.

 

[Karandras]

I understand the basis of the initial point.

In PnP RPGs, you can create any kind of character you wish and a relevant world can be formed around them. In a game like Fallout the opposite is happening as you have to create a character to take part in a pre-defined quest.

Certainly pre defined RPGs will be better suited to certain characters but this was clealry seen in Fallout 1 or 2 so far as certain stats/skills were more important than others. A different setting with different quests utilising the same D100 RPG system as fallout might make completely different demands of the player.

The key is not to limit the type of character a player can make to suit the style of quest. Greater depth is achieved by allowing the player to take characters across a wide spectrum of abilities, even ones who are totally incompetent.

 

[RPGenius]

Having a game world where there were quests suited for certain types of character would be great. Due to the pop-culture refences, I'm suprised none of the games have featured a "Bank-robber" scenario. High Ch/Ag Characters'd do well in that, have extra xp for how stealthy it was. Eg.
Take an object an NPC wants, from the bank-500xp
Never Enter Combat -extra 250xp
No alarm Raised extra 250xp
Replace item with fake, so that no-one knows the place has been robbed for days -extra 1500xp
Wipe Security Cameras, 150 xp. And so on. Character type specific quests would encourage replay, and more thought into character creation rather than "Energy Weapons! Yum!"

 

[Sander]

I don't want magic in Fallout, agreed, but how do you put a line between "magic" and "Science!"-type stuff? There are some obvious guidelines evident in the Fallout ethos, but some are kinda blurry - the fact that the mutation the Psykers underwent to become what they are was even possible within Fallout gives rise to many possibilities - one could speculate as to how exactly the player character finds himself in the correct circumstances to have started a mutation of this sort until the end of time but eventually some more likely scenarios will float to the surface. It basically boils down to whether the people behind the keyboards who enjoy Fallout will WANT to be this kind of person. It is very much evident, Sander, that you don't like this idea and will resort to calling it "magic" to make it go away, which isn't fair to the idea itself.

Actually, I think it is rather fair. The Psykers were a rather odd and a very blurry part of Fallout. What was obvious, though, was that they were all insane, and that it had nothing to do with their Intelligence. They weren't exactly powerful either. The only real power delivered mentally was done by the Master, who is an exception at everything already. He's absorbed a lot of minds, letting it make a lot more sense for him to be able to damage you with his mind.

One could argue that one's ability to see the EXACT medical status of an enemy and know exactly how many rounds he's carrying and what weapon he wields is "magic". (Hello, Awareness.)

Yes, basically, you could. It's not an in-character perk.

Or that the reason the Supersledge requires no ammo to deliver the incredibly high level of kinetic energy to the target is "magic". 20 hexes? Puh-leeze. If someone throws a bolt of energy that melts someone where they stand, it's "magic". If they do it WITH A GUN, it's A-OK. Fuck that. If you took a gun back in time to about A.D. 50 or so, and proceeded to shoot people with it they would call it "magic". Is it? No. Is mind-control and people exploding others' heads like overripe honeydews a little over the top? Perhaps. What isn't over the top in Fallout? I'll tell you what, if you can find something somewhere in the vast library of Fallout knowledge that explains how they miniaturized a weapon so big most battleships or cruisers can not properly accomodate it into a freaking rifle (or better yet, a pistol!) or exactly HOW they managed to harness the raging power of fusion technology and put it in a god-damn backpack for Power Armor, then you can demand I drop the psionic concept.

Calm down.
It's not about the feasability of the science, Fallout isn't realistic in that sense. It's about the feel and whether it fits in the setting. Guns throwing around plasma fit the feel of the setting, but someone throwing it around with their hands obviously doesn't. And that's exactly the angle you need to take, not a load of bullshit about whether people in 50 AD would think something is magic and not science, but whether or not it makes sense giving the feel and the setting of the game.

 

[IgnatzKrebs]

Calm down.
It's not about the feasability of the science, Fallout isn't realistic in that sense. It's about the feel and whether it fits in the setting. Guns throwing around plasma fit the feel of the setting, but someone throwing it around with their hands obviously doesn't. And that's exactly the angle you need to take, not a load of bullshit about whether people in 50 AD would think something is magic and not science, but whether or not it makes sense giving the feel and the setting of the game.

*grumble*

Well, regardless of whether psionicists are acceptable in Fallout or not, the one thing I have decided I cannot and should not argue with is popular opinion within the community that cares about Fallout the most. Further accentuating this point is the fact that the more I look the more I am seeing mental midgets float around within various forums or other types of gaming communities that all too readily gobble up the psionics idea, presumably to take it places where I never want it to go (OMG! we coud maek it so you coud liek tlelekinesis stuff around! LOLOL!). Psionics seem to be like a loaded gun: a great thing in the right hands, a disaster waiting to happen in the hands of some damned munchkin, and since the latter is certainly the more prevalent in this day and age this concept is better left to the roundfile. Which is sad, really. It does mildly annoy me that the folks who made Fallout happen in the first place didn't elaborate and/or set guidelines for how far exactly one could run with certain concepts...

On another note perhaps skills that are more or less redheaded stepchildren (some would say Science, or maybe Barter as of F2) be absorbed into other skills, as a method of evening out the viability of various skill "sets" (SmGuns, Lockpick and Speech would be a "skill set" according to Per). A character could have a poor stat score (CH) but still have developed a high skill level (Barter, Speech maybe) through worldly experience and practice to counteract the penalty substantially. While a few definite hard limits exist (a person with 1 AG is essentially a quadraplegic incapable of moving more than his facial muscles and his bowels and no amount of skill will counter that) but more workarounds should exist so that almost no character type is a total loser.

On a slightly unrelated note I also suggest revising Repair so AG plays some role in skill level - doesn't matter how smart you are, if you can't hold your fingers steady you're right fooked. Other skills are in need of closer inspection and possible overhaul, Barter perhaps (shouldn't IN figure at least as much into this as it does into Speech?)

 

[VirtualAlex]

Before we argue for making equal oppertunity for all stats. You need to make a case for stats being equally importiant. They simply are not. Not in real life, and not in the game.

How importiant is your Str and your Endurance in your everday life? I can easily say that to me, they mean nothing. I drive everywhere I go, and the heaviest thing I lift is a computer every now and then. I really don't need any agility either. I only need Charisma, Intellegence and Perception, and luck never hurt anyone either. So if I was making a character in the game called "Live everyday urban life" I would make a character with alot of INT, PE, and Cha if I wanted to have an easy time. Or maybe I could make a strong arm thug and take a life of crime. However this is a game of survival in the wastland where if bartering doesn't work, you can always murder and steal. Everyone has a gun, and there is no law. Obviously in such a game physical survival traits would be more importiant. Making this Indigo child, or Science Boy, or Dr. Friendly should be much much harder than making gunslinger, or strongarm thug. The difficulty needs to me overcome by better roleplaying. The fighter type can ALWAYS fight and win. The other types cannot. They need to work much harder to survive. But thats the way the game is. To make a game as easy for a Speech guy, as a figher simply wouldn't make sense. The same way making a gunslinger wouldn't make any sense in "Live in urban life" game. Offbeat characters should have a harder time.

 

[meatbot]

Offbeat characters should have a harder time.

Agreed. Just my two cents though. Both sides make an easily plausable argument, allthough I think they're closer to agreement than disagreement.

This game is a combat intensive environment.. I mean, if we draw the obvious paralells to Mad Max, (through the leather and dogmeat if nothing else), just for a comparison, the closest we can get to an indigo child is the feral child. No comparison. That feral child managed to off a raider by himself. I don't see there being an awful lot of people willing to take on additional baggage, no matter how charming. Even dogmeat is useful in the game. I use that as an example merely because when Max went to see the "good guys trying to make a new life for themselves" their first response was, "what can you do for me, otherwise we're taking your car and chaining you to the fencepost".

I say it doesnt feel "fallouty" to ME, because if I think back to the 50's and the COMPLETELY non politically correct environment (remember dunce caps, people?). At that time it was perfectly ok to ridicule unintelligent people. I find it somewhat hard to believe that after a holocaust, the survivors would have developed into a "kinder gentler" people than the -sarcasm here- "civilized and politically correct" society of the 50's to any great extent that there would be easily found groups wandering the wasteland.

I agree, the ability to make a character that could BE an indigo child, should be available. What I dont think is that those characters should have just as many options, or just as easy of a time finishing the game as characters built to EXCELL in the environment they find themselves in.

I for one LIKED the challenge of doing as well with my INT 1 "i can grunt only but me-big-strong" character as I could with my sniper/diplomat.

Would it be nice if there were the options for the indigo guy to have quests that could accomplish the same thing? Sure. I don't think it's in the scope of what is likely to be made, however.

I'll defend your right to have one, and even have it viable to play, but it deserves the challenge that individual would face in that environment.