China and Big Brother

[welsh]

Ok, so what if Mao

http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Mao/Mao-12-Political-Work.jpg

Was a fat little fucker with bad fashion sense and some really fucking stupid ideas about running a country. Ok, we can credit him some interesting thoughts about revolutionary warfare, and he gets a lot of credit for what success the Chinese had against the Japanese in World War II.

But here's the question- can you really become a super power if you don't your own people enough to let them jerk off to pornography?

(And yes, this is yet another anti-China post. Note- not anti-Chinese. Honestly, I want the Chinese to get as much freaking smut as anyone else. They deserve it after having to live with a those assholes of the Chinese Communist Party).

Dammed if you do
Jun 25th 2009 | BEIJING
From The Economist print edition

Protecting China’s innocents from smut, violence and the Dalai Lama

THE internet is full of stuff of which China’s government disapproves. Yet there are 300m Chinese internet-users. Keeping the two apart has embroiled the Chinese authorities in a long cat-and-mouse struggle. Service-providers and internet cafés are closely supervised, and a wide array of filtering mechanisms already overlays the national internet architecture. A fresh initiative goes one step further. From July 1st every personal computer sold in China will have to come with new filtering software called Green Dam Youth Escort.

I wonder who owns Green Dam Youth Escort? Seriously, who ever owns this is making huge bucks. I would love it if this was owned by a CCP member.

Afterall, going paranoid and developing security software is a great way to reward your political friends. Ask the Bush administration.

It has yet to be decided whether Green Dam must be pre-loaded, or left on a disk for users to install. But it has sparked an uproar. Chinese internet users have vented online their spleen at being nannied. Hackers are reported to have mounted repeated attacks on the website of Green Dam’s developer. It has also received more than 1,000 harassing phone-calls, including death threats.

Jesus fucking Christ folks. The Iranians rioted over losing their democracy. Least you Chinese could do is riot over your lost smut!

An American firm, Solid Oak Software, claims Green Dam includes stolen copyrighted code from one of its products, and has launched legal action. Computer makers are understandably reluctant to abet a massive censorship scheme, or to anger their customers with unwelcome software. Moreover, independent experts at the University of Michigan found Green Dam to be riddled with outdated code and security flaws that would leave computers at risk.

This is what I love about the Chinese. They are so corrupt and incompetent they can't even do repression well.

America’s Commerce Department this week lodged a formal complaint with the Chinese government, asking it to rescind the new rule. The government stresses Green Dam’s role in protecting young people from “unhealthy” and “poisonous” pornographic and violent content. But the Michigan experts found that it is also scans text for “politically sensitive” phrases.

Dalai Lama thinks that the problem for the CHinese is that they have the wrong mind set.

Sadly, the Chinese won't listen to him.

Whether to do with Tibet, Taiwan, or Falun Gong, a spiritual sect, there are plenty of these, leading to sites deemed “harmful” by China. In a year of harder economic times and sensitive political anniversaries, the authorities are especially edgy. The thin and cautious reporting in the press of events in Iran suggests they are also nervous about access to news of political protest elsewhere.

That's the thing about revolution- it makes a government put in power by revolution nervous.

Oh who are the counter-revolutionaries now?

Would Mao roll over in his grave, or have an identity crisis?

Despite the opposition, however, which includes a grassroots attempt to organise an internet boycott in China on July 1st, the government remains undaunted, promising that technical flaws will be fixed and that Green Dam will go forward. It has also opened a second front, lashing out at Google for including a feature in its Chinese service that automatically completes search-query terms—it complains that this can lead users to sites containing pornography.

The virtue of being a authoritarian dictatorship is never to have to say you're wrong. Until they hang you.

Google has long struggled to reconcile its corporate credo (“Don’t be evil”) with the onerous demands of China’s internet regulators. It has promised to renew its efforts to keep in line with Chinese standards. But the company also has fair cause to wonder why it has been singled out. Its main Chinese competitor, Baidu, is just as good at finding smut.

The problem with Google is that it really is evil. They just don't like to think so.

Doing business with China is like thinking that if you're friends with Bethesda, they will be good to you.

Reality check. You play with pigs, expect to smell like pig shit.

 

[Maphusio]

I believe much of the problem with those that call China their homes is Mao's successful brainwashing techniques.

interestingly, middle aged to elderly folks there truly believe the countless thousands that died under Mao's tender care were the result of a natural disaster! The younger generations seem to be more liberal and have asked important questions and found the truth but seem fear the consequences of a revolt or revolution.

The seeds of revolution have long been planted. It merely takes a catalyst to ignite the freedom many desire. I think this massive change won't come without massive bloodshed. Hopefully that change does not wind up into a civil war.

And ultimately, if that change does happen... there will be more uncensored Asian pr0n!

 

[welsh]

What worries me is how easy it is to make generations made mindless through bullshit propaganda (or in the US by really crappy movies), and then how easy it is to manipulate societies.

 

[Maphusio]

What worries me is how easy it is to make generations made mindless through bullshit propaganda (or in the US by really crappy movies), and then how easy it is to manipulate societies.

I feel what you describe in the USA was not so much by design as it was happenstance. The development (or some might say degradation) of our society seems to have shunned many away from engaging in activities that are intellectual.

Just as ancient story tellers felt the written word would degrade verbal communication, motion pictures have degraded the use of the written word. It has been my observation that the general consensus among my peers is that reading is a waste of time when one can see the same thing on TV. I to an extent fall into this alarming school of thought. I really enjoy educational films regarding science and the exploration of space. I find I watch more than I read despite the fact that the benefits of reading are so much more rewarding.

So maybe its not necessarily the powers that be and I think it unfair to blame technology or society as those are just symptoms of the greater problem. The only way to fix that problem, is to start the slow process of fighting in the opposite direction. That needs to start from the top down. Leaders, teachers, and role models need to help bring about that change... Up until recently I did not see that happening as most seemed to not care or felt their influence was not very strong. Guess I'll keep my fingers crossed and continue getting gawked at for using the ol' noggin from time to time.

 

[lasix9]

I believe China is due for another revolution.

Seriously, this day in age with this many people in the world (ESPECIALLY in China) how do they expect to honestly control some two billion people? Even the more democratic nations which are controlled by the people have problems instilling complete order over their populace.

According to what was said earlier, there are apparently as many people on the internet in China as there are citizens in America. Just like the Iranian protesters are using the internet to get their message out, China can (and probably is) doing this in the same way. You know what they say... the law can't arrest us all.

300 million internet users... and we thought 56K was slow!

 

[Stealste]

They do a pretty good job of censoring the internet though. I'd watched a programme on the 'Tank man' (what a legend, seriosly') in Tianemen (sorry for the awful spelling) Square. If you do a search in China you cannot find a picture of that man, that iconic picture. If you typed that in google yourself, i don't doubt it would be the first picture up.

It's sad China went the way it did, as a communist it's a fucking disgrace that arseholes like that reinforce the opinion that all communisms are authoritarian dictatorships, which is not what they should be like at all. Like basing your view of democracy on The Democratic Republic of Congo :p

 

[Sander]

They do a pretty good job of censoring the internet though. I'd watched a programme on the 'Tank man' (what a legend, seriosly') in Tianemen (sorry for the awful spelling) Square. If you do a search in China you cannot find a picture of that man, that iconic picture. If you typed that in google yourself, i don't doubt it would be the first picture up.

It's sad China went the way it did, as a communist it's a fucking disgrace that arseholes like that reinforce the opinion that all communisms are authoritarian dictatorships, which is not what they should be like at all. Like basing your view of democracy on The Democratic Republic of Congo :p

No, not really. It's more like basing your view of communism in practice on all known instances of communism in practice.

 

[Stealste]

They do a pretty good job of censoring the internet though. I'd watched a programme on the 'Tank man' (what a legend, seriosly') in Tianemen (sorry for the awful spelling) Square. If you do a search in China you cannot find a picture of that man, that iconic picture. If you typed that in google yourself, i don't doubt it would be the first picture up.

It's sad China went the way it did, as a communist it's a fucking disgrace that arseholes like that reinforce the opinion that all communisms are authoritarian dictatorships, which is not what they should be like at all. Like basing your view of democracy on The Democratic Republic of Congo :p

No, not really. It's more like basing your view of communism in practice on all known instances of communism in practice.

Tell me one so-called communism that draws a good comparison with anything Marx or Engels stated. The mere fact that popular movement and democracy form integral parts of the communist systems discredit China and the old USSR. The only half decent example i've seen, which is only a weak socialism at best anyways, is Venezuela, still technically democratic, some nationalisation of corporations- As a result, the wealth has been distributed somewhat, education and health care is on the rise, and there are more opportunities for the every man. It's not perfect, and it's not strictly socialism, but it's a damn site closer to the original Marxist doctrine than the China or the USSR ever approached, despite Lenin's original good intentions. There has never been a communist country. Simple as. If you want something close, read up on the Paris Commune.

 

[Sander]

Tell me one so-called communism that draws a good comparison with anything Marx or Engels stated. The mere fact that popular movement and democracy form integral parts of the communist systems discredit China and the old USSR. The only half decent example i've seen, which is only a weak socialism at best anyways, is Venezuela, still technically democratic, some nationalisation of corporations- As a result, the wealth has been distributed somewhat, education and health care is on the rise, and there are more opportunities for the every man. It's not perfect, and it's not strictly socialism, but it's a damn site closer to the original Marxist doctrine than the China or the USSR ever approached, despite Lenin's original good intentions. There has never been a communist country. Simple as. If you want something close, read up on the Paris Commune.

You are missing my point.
All known instances of people attempting to start the revolution and create a communist state have turned into holy hell, and usual bloody, mass-murdering oligarchies.
This does not mean that these are good representations of the theoretical communism. It does cast a rather grim light on the suitability of human nature for such a thing.

 

[Stealste]

Oh no, i agree. It seems to cast a bad light, but that is because exactly of what you said. The idea of a communist 'revolution' is somewhat of an oxymoron, in light of democracy's neccessity to play a big role in a transition. I think the idea of communism was nothing more than lip service in these nations, i suppose it's easier to oppress your people when you're telling them it's in their best interests, much like many western nations are doing now by revoking civil liberties in the name of their best interests against terrorism. It just irks me that Communism has had a bad rap- I'd just like to see an honest, elected communist party and judge how it goes from that, rather than being forced to take comparisons from parody communisms.

But i certainly agree with you about having doubts about human natures ability to adapt to this- But i hope. That's all you can do... And it's better than nothing.

 

[Crni Vuk]

it has a reason why Marx ideas are called "utopian" visions. Nice to read about it but impossible to achieve. People will never be "equal" not even in democracy even.

 

[Stealste]

it has a reason why Marx ideas are called "utopian" visions. Nice to read about it but impossible to achieve. People will never be "equal" not even in democracy even.

Strictly speaking, Utopianism is different, and earlier than Marx's ideas, although he took some points from it, but i know what you mean and i'm just being a little pedantic. But i agree with you to some extent, however there are still many things that can be applied to our societies that could benefit average people- Which is primarily the reason i joined the Socialist Party here the UK, i would just at least like to see more rights and better working conditions for your average person, and provide an alternative to the right-wing (read: nazi) parties who are sucking up votes in light of voter's lost confidence with the mainstream parties. All of this is achievable- even in a capitalist system that will resent it. We've had a few successes in the past, and will do again in the future. Someones gotta fight the battles i suppose, win or lose.

 

[lasix9]

I remember reading through the Communist Manifesto...

As said above, no nation has achieved what has been defined in that book. Sad really.

I feel I lean a bit towards socialism myself. Even though we will never be completely equal in this world, a nation should be able to somehow support it's own citizenry to some extent. No, I don't expect a utopian society to come out of socialism (or really any government).

But I must say, capitalism can hurt at times. Sure, it's nice when you can afford it. But when you get in the red, and you can't give yourself or your family anything more, then, it hurts like a bitch. The reason I say I lean a bit towards socialism is things like healthcare and education. I think both those costs are astronomical in America. Debt are often a result of those two things in themselves.

Would socialism fix that? I think it could help it in some way. Still, the wealth of the nation is ultimately based in the people (regardless of how the government they're under spends it).

The reason I say I'm socialist and not a flat out communist is because I don't really believe in organizing the entire workforce for the sake of the nation. I do believe you do not need to go to such extremes for the progress of the nation. Merely controlling the wealth that is generated by an autonomous workforce works. It gives the citizens a choice in the jobs they work, yet still controlling the overall wealth generated by the workforce. Is it completely fair? Not always. But again, we'll never see completely true equality amongst us all.

As for China, I still can't believe the lengths they're going to, to control the most populated nation on the planet. As I said, sounds impossible to me.

In conclusion, is communism the best form of government: No. Is democracy the best form of government: No.

In comparison though, I'd have go overall with a democracy. At least as a voter, I have a small place in the massive sea of other voters. Unless I start a lobbyist group. HA!

 

[Starseeker]

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=50769

Sorry, welsh, I already posted this.

As for comments about China from others, lol, come live here for a while..., the brain washing is doing pretty good.

The funny thing is that the only thing the CCP couldn't defeat is what Deng Xiao Ping advocated all along, the Chineseness of the Chinese people. A simple example is how all Chinese must find good bargains. No matter how patriotic the Chinese people I know are, most of them will no buy a Chinese brand digi cam. Why? Expensive and crappy. lol.

Would a patriotic Chinese girl marry a foreigner if it givers her better status and postion in life? Yes.

Survival triumphs all ideologies here. Even communism. And don't talk about revolutions here, CR destroyed whatever good was about China and they still haven't recovered.

 

[TheWesDude]

i know an american living in china right now.

he teaches english classes for one of their english schools.

he says he has lots of women come up to him simply because he is a foreigner, and inevitably one of the first questions they ask him is how much he makes.

he says its what they care most about.

 

[welsh]

@ Starseeker- Yes, I saw that before, but was too busy to comment. What really surprises me is that the usual pro-China chinese posters haven't popped in and called me a nasty imperialist or some such. I love those guys.

Maybe NMA is being censored in China.... Ekk, all those hundreds of millions of potential members shot to hell?

(Don't I sound like a Western capitalist looking at China and thinking about potential buyers! Remember... if every Chinese buys 1 coke a year, how much money will coke make?)

Which leads me to respond-
@Malphusio-

Which is what fucks us.

The American/Western system is driven by a capitalist system fundamentally run by a bunch of MBA pricks who would think nothing of whoring their wives and mothers if it made them a buck.

So naturally these pricks go over to China and take advantage of virtual slave labor while workers in the US find themselves suddenly unemployed.

And these same assholes are usually the same ones that say, "Oh China will eventually become a democracy!" Bullshit. At least not if the CCP has anything to say about it. Didn't the chair of the last Party Conference basically say, "Democracy? Not here, not ever."

But that also goes to the problem of the US and the West. We have a political system in which financially powerful interests have tremendous capacity to influence policy. This isn't just at the federal level. No, corruption gets bigger the closer you get to the grassroots. State governments are more corrupt than federal, local government is more corrupt than state.

So its not, a the Libertarians or the Republicans, would have you think, a problem of big government. The problem is influence in government- and that's what fucks us in the end.

ANd to be fair, it always has. The development and spread of the US was led, not by mountain men or frontiers people, but by industrialists who exploited the resources of the west, just as the European colonialism of much of the world was done at the behest of financially powerful interests.

Which probably does more than anything to explain why a country like the US, which has some really nice folks, can have done such horrible fucking shit in Central America for much of the last century and a half. Because the people who call the shots are the one's with economic power.

And that's also true, to a certain extent, in China.

The problem in communism is that political and economic power go to the same source. Rather than risk diluting their political monopoly by allowing other interests to prosper, those who hold political power basically destroy the capatalist system and replace it with a demand non-market economy.

In a capitalist economy- at least a developed one, the political rulers are subjects of the economic power that exists.

Why?

Because every government, no matter if its authoritarian, totalitarian or democratic, must extract resources from society to survive. It can extract either two ways-
through coercion (Mao tells us political power comes from the barrel of a gun),
or it deals with society by putting coercive power to the benefit productive purposes. It essentially imposes rule of law and creates the judiciary and police necessary to protect society and allow it to develop (and then it scrapes off a piece in the way of taxation).

In a capitalist autocratic system- the ruler deals with business and social interests to get his rents. He makes the deals, and if he doesn't like it, perhaps he coerces. But he has to be careful- too much coercion and everyone leaves.

How much it taxes or who pays the taxes- in a democracy, society debates it. There is social conflict with each segment using its resources. The resources of big business = money.

SO how does that dumb down our society-

The same way that plantation owners don't want to see much education- beyond that which is needed for farm workers to plant.

Like why blacks were denied education in the American South- to keep them stupid.

Or why upper classes don't like paying taxes for middle or low class schools- too much potential competition.

Or why we get crappy movies- because they sell to a lowest common denominator and businesses don't like risks.

It comes down to the same ethic- those with economic power profit off the mindlessness of the masses. And the more mindless, the more easy to manipulate.

(Which explains why I'm an educator).

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well technicaly most nations (anyone can feel free to correct me) are not "pure" democracies neither but more republics.

In my eyes America and the European nations I know about are not democratic.

Not that I am a friend of Chinas politic, but I think we should not try to much to mark it with a brand as long we still have not even a true real relation to our own politics and behaviour. It doesnt mean to overlook anything but its one thing to point out flaws and critise but another to just point with the finger on something with the intention to eventualy discredit someone (not that I am talking about anyone in particular here just the media in general. Many politicans anyway kiss the Chinese gouvernements ass for good economic relations and seem not to care about what happens with the Uyghur people for example).

 

[Starseeker]

Since we are talking about censorship, I might as well mention it here.

This books has recently been published by HK's New Century Press:

http://www.librarything.com/work/8346988/47484801

http://www.amazon.ca/PRISONER-STATE...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247068851&sr=8-1

"Zhao may be more dangerous in death than he was in life."
-- Time

How often can you peek behind the curtains of one of the most secretive governments in the world? Prisoner of the State is the first book to give readers a front row seat to the secret inner workings of China's government. It is the story of Premier Zhao Ziyang, the man who brought liberal change to that nation and who, at the height of the Tiananmen Square protests in 1989, tried to stop the massacre and was dethroned for his efforts.

When China's army moved in, killing hundreds of students and other demonstrators, Zhao was placed under house arrest at his home on a quiet alley in Beijing. China's most promising change agent had been disgraced, along with the policies he stood for. The premier spent the last sixteen years of his life, up until his death in 2005, in seclusion. An occasional detail about his life would slip out: reports of a golf excursion, a photo of his aging visage, a leaked letter to China's leaders. But China scholars often lamented that Zhao never had his final say.

It's a secret memoir of sorts from a former Premier of China, Zhao ZiYang. He was rumored as one of the few high ranking Chinese officials that voted against violence in 1989. And for that, he was put under house arrest for 16 years. He revealed a lot of thing about the inner workings of the Chinese government and the path they have taken to get here.

You should read it, welsh.

 

[x'il]

The only half decent example i've seen, which is only a weak socialism at best anyways, is Venezuela, still technically democratic, some nationalisation of corporations- As a result, the wealth has been distributed somewhat, education and health care is on the rise, and there are more opportunities for the every man.

Wrong.

Please don't buy into Chavez's international propaganda.


EDIT: @ Stealste, have you ever read "Marx's Concept of Man" by Erich Fromm?; very good reading. Fromm's view of socialism in that book (which he attributes to a better interpretation of Marx, don't know why tough, because is not, his view is far better than Marx's) is one (or the best) theoretical discussion about socialism i've seen.

P.S. sorry if this is a little off-topic (though not so much i'd say).