Conservatives, libertarians and political identiifcation

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by TheWesDude, Sep 29, 2014.

  1. TheWesDude

    TheWesDude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 25, 2005
    so a long time advertising blogger made a post to studios and publishers and console makers that they need to use their influence to smack down the journalists for their actions and blatant use of false stereo types and gross over-simplification and ad infinitum posts. and posts in favor of gamergate and notyourshield.

    http://adland.tv/adnews/gamergate-insulting-consumers-shrinks-market/1027025677


    as an aside, i never knew who christina sommers was until i saw her name crop up in relation to that video. and she is a feminist, she was a part of whats now called 2nd wave feminism, and is a registered democrat, and has libertarian leanings. she is NOT a conservative. calling her a conservative is letting your own bias show. it actually was really easy to find her political leanings. really weird how everyone keeps calling her a conservative and/or republican when that is easily demonstratively false.
     
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  2. 34thcell

    34thcell Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    333
    Sep 22, 2008
    None the less, that youtube channel is of a conservative think tank. Also libertarian in US tends to mean hardcore conservative, except pro drug legalisation and maybe anti-war. Unless they specifically state civil libertarian.
     
  3. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    The morally correct thing to do can harm profits, sure.

    People keep calling her a conservative because every view she actually expresses is conservative and she writes for a conservative think tank. Her Wikipedia page claims she's a registered Democrat (citing her 1995(!) book), but she doesn't actually promote any non-conservative views. Also note that Wikipedia cites the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, which calls her equity feminism "classical liberal or libertarian" and calls Sommers herself "socially conservative", and each of those terms is pretty much on the conservative side of the spectrum.

    As I've said before, she calls herself an equity feminist, but all she does is talk about men's rights and how feminism (and women) hurt men. It's an odd definition of feminism that considers someone who does not promote women's rights, a feminist.
     
  4. UniversalWolf

    UniversalWolf eaten by a grue.

    Aug 28, 2005
    That's simply not true.
     
  5. The Dopamine Cleric

    The Dopamine Cleric No. Orderite

    Nov 3, 2007
    Libertarian tends to mean everything to everyone since both majority democrat and republican parties have done their best to destroy any attempt made to create a libertarian party that has any power.

    Libertarianism tends to be pro-middle class self-reliance and pro-lower class mobility in its principles so it's a major threat to the "Business" parties.
     
  6. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    There's a million different strains of libertarianism and whatever, but the most popular libertarian books are written by Ayn Rand, the most popular libertarian politician is Ron Paul, and the main libertarian outlets are Mises, reason and Cato. I mean, that shit is really conservative. Besides, the one thing uniting all the libertarian strains is that they hate big government -- which would be largely a conservative stance these days: opposition to universal health care, welfare, etc.
     
  7. Geech

    Geech It Wandered In From the Wastes

    183
    Dec 2, 2008
    "That shit" is also pro gay marriage, pro drug legalization and anti-war. Even if policies that are clearly not conservative don't convince you, the extreme hostility of conservative republicans toward libertarians in the party is very telling. I think either you don't understand libertarianism well enough, or your conception of the political continuum is not robust enough.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2014
  8. The Dopamine Cleric

    The Dopamine Cleric No. Orderite

    Nov 3, 2007
    I would call myself a Libertarian Socialist.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

    The problem with this, however is that socialism is an "evil" dirty dirty word that will get you burned at the stake. The word "Anarchism", is allusive to lawlessness and violence.


    My ideal philosophy is Classical Liberalism

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism


    The schism within liberalism that occured during the labor movements of the 20th century caused the word itself to draw more towards "Business & Capitalist Friendly" Tendencies, acknowledging social classes as necessary for they are cogs in the machine.

    Classical Liberalism became synonymous with Marxism, and from Marxism to Leninism, ect ect ect, and on down the horrid line of history.

    It is quite hard in this day and age to even present rational arguments towards anti-authoritarian systems, it makes you a nutter. Some political parasite has to hold the martinet strings, be it corporate intrest or the state. If not it is downright anarchism, for the "People" are far too stupid to rule themselves and the world would fall apart if they were given the opportunity!



    I think Sander understands that the majority in western thought label libertarinsim as an extreme white-winged conservative movement where laissez-faire capitalism is the law, which in a lot of peoples minds would equate to having the same system we have currently, except that it would be out in the open rather than hidden. "This political campaign brought to you by Wal-Mart."

    In political dynamics, parties usually take advantage of any chance to aid misinformation campaigns to help strengthen whatever parties side on an issue, so I am not surprised that the western media portrays libertarianism as a right-winged movement.

    In all honesty, people are so uneducated in civics, it's a wonder we don't have a monarchy.



    The problems that I see within my own political "leanings" is they do not address issues in the wide arena of globalized markets, energy-sectors, nuclear weapons...

    To address these really "Global" problems you need an entity that has the power to enforce laws and regulate systems. The only alternative to the problems I feel that we have today that are caused by false polarization of political ideology is a skilled team of lawyers overseen by a group of angry militia-men with guns, updating our universal "Magna Carta" towards a 21st century perception.

    Sound familiar?


    Each issue is extremely complex and has a large unseen blow-back of consequences if you move the law's force in any direction.

    We have yet to formulate a modern form of government that is able to handle the issues that we have in the 21st century except for the ones that we have now.

    Each country is different

    Each Ethnic group is different

    Each religion is different

    Every person is different.

    We could confederate governments to the winds! and then one group of them will yell at another group about how they dress their daughters, or slavery, or whatever difference mind you.


    To solve all of these problems requires me to go against my beliefs, so I tire of politics.

    It all ends with giant holes in the earth, and a half-hearted hope that it will be better in the aftermath.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2014
  9. TheWesDude

    TheWesDude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 25, 2005
    then allow me to borrow a page from your book.

    there are people in the anti-gamergate group that harass. in fact, that is how the whole thing started, attacking proponents of gamergate. sure, they are a minority in the anti-gamergate movement, but they are a significant part of the anti-gamergate group. not only that, but they are making sexist comments, but also glorify in misandry. even though it is a minority, it makes a significant part of the anti-gamergate group and agenda.
     
  10. The Dopamine Cleric

    The Dopamine Cleric No. Orderite

    Nov 3, 2007


    In your philosophy it is okay to murder millions of civilians in a country because the political majority is opposed to your viewpoint.


    Why don't you stop arguing like a little shit and try to do something "positive". All of this energy wasted on this while you could form your own group and viewpoint to distance yourself from the beliefs you are against and help others gravitate towards your own.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2014
  11. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    As I noted, there's a million different strains of libertarianism. I wouldn't call being anti-war "not conservative", as isolationism has been a conservative strain for a very long time. And a lot of libertarians (eg. Ron Paul) are not pro gay marriage. The one thing libertarianism does do that is consistently progressive is oppose the drug war. Which, yay! Fuck the drug war and the racist-ass horse it rode in on.

    Libertarianism is not identical to conservatism, and it's possible to be a very liberal libertarian or a very conservative one. In practice, though, libertarianism in the current political spectrum is overwhelmingly conservative: they oppose "big government", they tend to use "right to association" to defend segregation and discrimination, they tend to use "religious freedom" to defend gender discrimination, they tend to use "no government interference" to defend voter discrimination, and they consistently support Republican policies over Democratic ones. Yes, I'm using "they" to refer to an amorphous and somewhat varied group here, and there will certainly be libertarians that disagree with those methods/goals. However, if you start reading libertarian outlets, like reason, like Cato, like the crackpots at Mises, you'll consistently see all of those issues, and a whole lot more.

    Ignoring the fact that "misandry" is not what is going on there, and that it certainly didn't start as harassment -- so? What's the conclusion you'd draw from those statements? What do you think that implies?
     
  12. TheWesDude

    TheWesDude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 25, 2005
    you guys keep focusing on the "libertarian leanings" rather than the registered democrat part.

    i find that interesting.
     
  13. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Because the views she actually expresses currently and over the past twenty years is a lot more relevant than her registered party affiliation twenty years ago.
     
  14. Geech

    Geech It Wandered In From the Wastes

    183
    Dec 2, 2008
    I'm not going to go down endless rabbit trails on specific issues, but I think you're heavily emphasizing the overlap with conservatives and heavily minimizing the overlap with leftists to make your point here. If you surveyed people who self-identified as either libertarian or conservative about whether they were the same, I think you would see a pretty strong consensus that they were not. Pigeonholing libertarianism as part of conservatism just feels like a means of dismissing it without having to deal with it.
     
  15. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    I don't think the self-confessed libertarian saying "but I'm not conservative" carries a lot of weight when the person in question still consistently supports nearly every conservative position -- I know several people who will do exactly that. This is what polls consistently show, too: one poll noted that the majority of libertarians "identify" with either the GOP or the tea party -- and that doesn't include those libertarians who don't identify with either group, but still support most of those policies in practice. Only 5% identified with democrats. Another poll suggested that libertarians tend to support more conservative stances -- even a more active role in world affairs. Another poll suggests that while libertarians exist all over the map, they are mostly clustered in conservative groups (specifically business conservatives).

    I'm well-aware that there are left-leaning libertarians. But mostly, libertarians are conservative -- even if they don't want to call themselves that.
     
  16. TheWesDude

    TheWesDude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 25, 2005
    you know, i thought i covered this before. you are coloring others with your bias yet again. stop it.

    seriously, stop it.

    no, really, you need to stop it.

    https://twitter.com/CHSommers/status/512223300828012545

    not 20 fucking years ago.

    she is a democrat. that agrees with some libertarian positions.

    now, stop it.
     
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  17. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Cool, I did not know she is still a registered Democrat.

    The positions she publicly takes are still consistently conservative, as is the think thank that employs her, though. Perhaps she is not a conservative about the things she does not talk about -- but then, the things she does not talk about are not all that relevant in the current debate. I'm not even sure why this is a sticking point, in any case: her being conservative or not doesn't make her arguments correct or incorrect. Her arguments alone make her incorrect. You fell over people in general calling her a conservative, as if this was some kind of slander instead of merely a descriptive term.
     
  18. TheWesDude

    TheWesDude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 25, 2005
    did it ever occur to you that maybe she posts on a "conservative" site because other "liberal" sites do not actually want her posting under their umbrella because they actually do not like different viewpoints? just look at gaming journalism, everyone is falling all over themselves to side with the anti-gamergate group because they know if they dont they will be accused of supporting harassment of women, sexism, and misogyny.

    just because someone posts articles/news for a site/news show/news corp that is considered conservative does NOT mean you are free to call anyone that does so a conservative. not everyone is as close-minded as you like to think. plus, having different points of view can inspire discussion. it would be pretty boring to have a show where everyone agrees with each other all the time.

    and it seems that Intel has pulled their advertising from a few gaming sites, most notably GameSutra, for posting articles/news that directly attack gamers who are some of their notable customers as gamers tend to upgrade their rig or buy new computers than mom and pop that want a $400 hp/dell cheapie desktop.

    and when people ask me about computer products, i always tell them, if you can swing it get the i5 or i7, those are some really solid great performing CPUs. really the only thing keeping AMD solvent is their Radeon GPUs and the fact their CPUs are so cheap. bulldozer was a disaster.

    if my next upgrade is planned rather than emergency hardware failure, then i would definitely get an Intel, not merely because they support gamergate indirectly, but because they have superior CPUs at the moment. my only real complaint about Intel CPUs is that they dont have enough L2 cache imo, but then again neither does AMD unless you go to their server class offerings.
     
  19. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Indeed, that's exactly what's happening. She works for a conservative think tank, because said conservative think tank agrees with her viewpoints, and liberal think tanks do not. This is perfectly consistent with what I and others have been saying, namely that the viewpoints she espouses are conservative.

    When someone works for a conservative think tank and the only views she espouses are conservative, calling her views conservative is the logical thing to do. Even so, I don't have a clue why you think this is a problem: it's a descriptive term. Half the U.S. public is conservative. Why are you so upset that someone identifies her views as conservative?
     
  20. TheWesDude

    TheWesDude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 25, 2005
    she is a resident scholar for AEI, a conservative non-profit organization (think tank).
    no, not all her views are conservative.

    that last one is the sticking point.

    and no, she has posted articles for centrist and even liberal news organizations. i find it odd that when political sites talk about sommers, they call her a centrist democrat, and yet elsewhere everyone calls her a conservative. i guess the political sites have no clue what they are talking about, and when sommers calls herself a democrat with libertarian leanings, she has no clue about her political views either.

    of course you are right sander, i am sure you know more about her full body of work and her stance on political issues far more than she does or other actual political sites.

    oh, and to address your last question... its because i get upset when people purposefully mis-characterize someone and/or their views based on personal bias rather than objectivity or fact.

    hell, the fact i was able to find that twitter post so easily with so little effort just really shines the light on your bias.

    yet again, stop it.

    if you want to know her political views, ask her. im sure you can find some forums she participates in or her email address or post @ her on twitter asking.

    but to apply your personal bias to her without research or even asking? i mean, it sure is a conservative view to be pro-choice isnt it!

    stop it.
     
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