Ctrl+Alt+Defeat and Destructoid on 'War Never Changes'

Eternal

Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Ctrl+Alt+Defeat discusses Fallout's iconic catchphrase in their latest issue, a one-page treatise that concludes no constant is to be found in the games making it an empty phrase.

Destructoid responds.<blockquote>All of this is contextualized with history itself. “The Romans waged war to gather slaves and wealth. Spain built an empire from its lust for gold and territory. Hitler shaped a battered Germany into an economic superpower. "But war never changes. ”

Which is to say, the war in the game is in the same vein as war waged for avarice and lust, both of which cannot be said to be reasons for "just" war. That’s what I believe the phrase refers to: never changes because it is never justified. An unjustified war is an absurd war. The absurdity of this all is further implied when we take into consideration that the “Spoils of war were also its weapons.” War is being waged...so that more war can be waged. How stupid is that?

The same can be said of the "war" we find in the game itself. In the first Fallout specifically, the war between the super mutant army and humanity is the central conflict. Super mutants are a direct consequence of pre-war actions. West-Tek developed a series of technologies for the American government in the game, one of which included a drug that was meant to help defend against possible biological warfare from China. While the drug was successful in combating biological weapons, the side effects caused extreme growth in muscle and brain function. Naturally, these effects enamored the government, who then wanted to use the Forced Evolutionary Virus (FEV) to create super-soldiers.

The experiment was never fully finished, but facility in which this all took place was later rediscovered by Richard Grey. Richard Grey is exposed to FEV and ends up becoming "The Master," who then decides on using the virus to create a master race of super mutants. While his intent was "noble" in that he wanted to evolve humanity into something that would be beyond misery, conflict and war, it is still misguided, and the parallels to Nazis is obvious. Thus the war between humans and super mutants can be said to be a result of absurdity on two counts: a deranged, insane villain, and the ridiculous result of previous war-mongering.</blockquote>
 
Wow.
Never thought I'd read an intelligent article on Destructiod.
Least of all one that dealt with a franchise I cared about.
Thanks, Jim Sterling, for finally retiring?
 
Ctrl+Alt+Defeat was probably one of the most irritating things I've read in a while.

One of those supposedly intellectual things that winds up being dumb as hell.

I can just picture the author now, sitting there going 'Well, War has changed because the games have different plot points, ha ha, I'm so clever'.

The response however was very clearly thought-out, hell, even if it weren't, it's not the one-page rub-out that it's countering.

I'm usually not a believer in the quantity = quality argument, but in this case it's rather apparent.
 
Format Wars

Format Wars



If readily readable presentation means anything, it might be obvious that the Destructiod essay in downward scrolling web magazine html has something to say because it's 'accessible'.

If the media is the message, then the tedious flash format for the Ctrl+Alt+Defeat '-zine' is all about visual 'art' for it's presenter's sake, certainly not for conveying thought beyond sniveling nuances.

One format 'works'.

One format translates as empty of meaning and purpose as it claims to reveal in the FO's.

Content?

Please.

It's 1:20 A.M. in my Ziip Code. Time to fall asleep to some LibriVox voice reading ..... :zzz:








4too
 
Honestly I didn't even read the CAD article. Couldn't be bothered to deal with that horrible interface. Only mentioned it cause it cause of its importance to the destructoid article for coherence.
 
I think they're both missing the point. In Fallout, War Never Changes because War is always fought over scarce resources for the sake of enriching or preserving the belligerents without any real regard for the people who are doing the actual fighting.

Take Fallout. The Master wanted scarce purestrain humans to expand his army of super mutants, The Overseer wanted to safeguard the ones he controlled and keep them under his thumb in Vault 13. The Master cared so little for the Super Mutants he didn't even know that they were sterile, and The Overseer threw The Vault Dweller away when he was done.

Or Fallout 2, where you can see it twice. NCR is using various intermediaries (Moore, Bishop, The Chosen One, The Rangers, Etc) to attack, harass, or otherwise debilitate various settlements in order to get their hands on Gold and Uranium and whatever else, and The Enclave has decided that there just isn't enough in the world to rebuild without killing off the Wastelanders. Same deal.
 
True but you are forgetting 1 other reason for war: Religion

While it is true that other factors may be involved (for example the USA's manipulation of the pakistanis to create a holy war against Russia in the 1980s was underlying part of a resource gathering war) you can have war simply based on Religion itself.

It is more rare than it seems since often wars are fought in history under the guise of religious wars but really are imperialistic power grabs disguised as holy wars.
 
Eternal said:
Honestly I didn't even read the CAD article. Couldn't be bothered to deal with that horrible interface. Only mentioned it cause it cause of its importance to the destructoid article for coherence.
Maybe you should. The intention of raising a controversy over the words and drawing attention can be classified as "trying too hard." It's their first number, you get the idea. BTW, anyone got that passage starting with "In Fallout 2"? I'm totally lost there...

Destructoid hits somewhat closer to the issue, calling it absurdity of war. I must agree to an extent. The moment I heard the words spoken by Ron, there was a picture of the destroyed Reichstag, followed by several others depicting the true nature of ravaging war(s). Even when a war is over, some questions remain. What has been accomplished? What had to be sacrificed? Was it really necessary? What would happen if..? In regard to this, none of the wars is any different than others. Thus, war never changes (in its absurdity as well.)

Personally, analysing the words in context of war technology, war techniques or the events in Fallout 1/2 is no more than missing the point.

However, trying to analyse them in context of motives, forces me to agree with DemonNick:
DemonNick said:
War is always fought over scarce resources for the sake of enriching or preserving the belligerents without any real regard for the people who are doing the actual fighting.
 
An OK read but I don't really see the point of a big discussion if half of people don't even bother with the catchphrase and go into FNV vs FO3 comments. It just shows how the majority looks at the game stories and universe. And unlike having Codex of over 100 pages in Fallout it was always talking, surviving and reading about history. Or just watching that map with burned cities and wastelands.
All was revolved about the war in the past and in the future. Only weapons changed, war stayed the same as it always was.

"In Fallout 3, it becomes more difficult to pick a "central" conflict. We have the war between the super mutants and humanity, which is similar to the war we see in Fallout 1"
^Is he insane or just plain dumb?
 
LinkPain said:
An OK read but I don't really see the point of a big discussion if half of people don't even bother with the catchphrase and go into FNV vs FO3 comments. It just shows how the majority looks at the game stories and universe. And unlike having Codex of over 100 pages in Fallout it was always talking, surviving and reading about history. Or just watching that map with burned cities and wastelands.
All was revolved about the war in the past and in the future. Only weapons changed, war stayed the same as it always was.

"In Fallout 3, it becomes more difficult to pick a "central" conflict. We have the war between the super mutants and humanity, which is similar to the war we see in Fallout 1"
^Is he insane or just plain dumb?

He goes onto state that Fallout 3 isn't a good example as it just a rehash of the stories from Fallout 1 and 2.
 
Eternal said:
you can have war simply based on Religion itself.

No, you can't. On the pure reason that there is no (well regarded) religion that dictates to go kill people. However as you point out its a great guise to do so. Not a small part of this is because most religions are fully with unclear phrases and loopholes to interpret stuff for your own desires. (May also have something to do that most sacred writings are written in times where there were different customs)

The reasons for wars are always pathetic though anyway compared to the horrors they bring.
 
Eternal said:
True but you are forgetting 1 other reason for war: Religion

While it is true that other factors may be involved (for example the USA's manipulation of the pakistanis to create a holy war against Russia in the 1980s was underlying part of a resource gathering war) you can have war simply based on Religion itself.

It is more rare than it seems since often wars are fought in history under the guise of religious wars but really are imperialistic power grabs disguised as holy wars.
I'm talking purely in the context of Fallout, which is the only place where the catch phrase really has any cachet. Anything else is bad criticism.
 
LinkPain said:
"In Fallout 3, it becomes more difficult to pick a "central" conflict. We have the war between the super mutants and humanity, which is similar to the war we see in Fallout 1"
^Is he insane or just plain dumb?

The writer is a she. Just felt like pointing that out.

Besides that, I never really interpreted the "war never changes" as anything more than a statement on how war is a constant in mankind's history. That said, as much as I love Avellone, the people that should have been asked about that are the members of the original team. Surprisingly decent (if a tad pretentious, see the interlude on semiotic ghosts that added absolutely nothing to support the article's thesis) article from a trash site like Destructoid, though.
 
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