Desslock explains level scaling

Brother None

This ghoul has seen it all
Orderite
Desslock of PC Gamer has dedicated a column to explaining how level scaling in Fallout 3 will work:<blockquote>Gaining power to kick some serious butt is a hallmark of RPGs. Typically, you're initially relegated to exterminating rats and similarly mundane vermin, but after questing for a few dozen hours, you're capable of dragon slaying. One of the great perks of becoming more powerful is the ability to strut through previously ominous territory and beat the crap out of enemies that used to terrify you. But Oblivion scales in difficulty and denies you that sense of accomplishment. If you return to a crypt after gaining some experience levels, hoping to stomp the zombies that previously manhandled you, you discover that those blasted undead have upgraded to deadly Wraiths. Oblivion's enemies reorganize into groups, and as you advance in level, enemies are supplanted by more powerful creatures within those groups. So, the Goblins you once encountered are replaced by Goblin Skirmishers and finally by Goblin Warlords. There isn't even a reprieve once you've encountered a group's most powerful creatures, as those enemies constantly scale up in attributes and equipment to match your level. Oblivion's scaling makes level advancement less rewarding, makes its world unrealistic-eventually, bandits demanding pennies end up decked out in glass armor and magical equipment worth more than lavish estates. You're actually regarded for not advancing in level-quests such as the Kvatch Siege are easier you undertake them as a pleb, since you'll only encounter Stunted Daedra instead of their more formidable counterparts. A demonic invasion isn't so terrifying when its bridgehead forces could have been routed by a lone wild bear.
Fortunately, Fallout 3 will not use Oblivion's level-scaling, but contrary to what you may have read elsewhere, scaling isn't completely discarded. The first important change is that creatures never scale up in abilities to match your level, so each Deathclaw in F3 will always have the same attributes, regardless of your character's level when you have the misfortune of encountering it. Second, each territory in the game is now assigned an encounter level that determines the level and equipment of critters when you discover that area, so a first-level character that wanders into an area designated as "encounter level 5" will be badly outmatched by the inhabitants. Loot is also generally scaled to the area's encounter level, but some item items will be hand-placed, which is similar to how Morrowind handled loot.
An area's level doesn't remain static, but it gets locked as soon as you enter it. If you enter a city block designated as a level 5 area, it will remain a level 5 area and never scale up in difficulty. Areas you haven't yet encountered do "tether up" in difficulty level, but the tethering level doesn't linearly scale with your level, so there's still an advantage to gaining experience levels. The city block that's initially designated as a level 5 area will tether up and be designated as a level8 area if you don't wander into it until you're a level 15 character. But since an area's level is locked once you enter it, you'll still get the satisfaction of returning to a previously difficult area and annihilating its residents once you have a more powerful character.
Bethesda's still tweaking these systems, but they should make exploration more interesting and not diminish the regard for advancement by making you feel like you can never really get ahead. I'd still prefer a static world like Gothic's, where encounters are always consistent regardless of your character level, but this toned-down scaling system sounds like a huge improvement over Oblivions.</blockquote>

Thanks Stag.
 
I'd still prefer a static world like Gothic's, where encounters are always consistent regardless of your character level, but this toned-down scaling system sounds like a huge improvement over Oblivions.
I wonder how a Fallout done by Piranha Bytes would look like ^^
This one is fucked up no matter how level scaling look like I guess.
 
This system seems to be better than the one in Obivion, I guess. However, so much tweaking, designing and work for nothing. The old system worked and they could (once again) allocate their resources (time as the critical one)better.

They could use that time to play the prequels through, read the Fallout Bible and (if possible) the original design documents. But no, it was easier to rip out the keywords like nukular, explosion, obscene language etc. and combine it with own lack of imagination.

Down the cliff with it.
 
This feature in and of itself doesn't sound bad.

I don't see what it adds to the gameplay experience. Yeah, this mythical "exploration" thing, but is that really necessary? Does that add a lot?

Meh, can't be bothered about this either way, as long as they learned from Oblivion.
 
This system still makes no sense when you think about the fact that there's a level cap in place. The player's power is already capped, so it's really easy to design the game world to be properly challenging. Scaling isn't needed whatsoever.
 
Deathclaws on ze east coast. another snippet confirmed, I guess, although I doubt anyone will be surprised by this.
 
SuAside said:
Deathclaws on ze east coast. another snippet confirmed, I guess, although I doubt anyone will be surprised by this.

You're not going to seriously claim deathclaws have no business on the East Coast, are you?
 
Yeah, bro. Don't be hatin', we already lost Tupac and Biggie over that shit.
 
Brother None said:
SuAside said:
Deathclaws on ze east coast. another snippet confirmed, I guess, although I doubt anyone will be surprised by this.
You're not going to seriously claim deathclaws have no business on the East Coast, are you?
why does everyone think i'm always being negative? :roll:

no, simply saying that this is the first time i've seen a Deathclaw confirmed in so many words by a dev... (eventhough everyone expected the return of the Deathclaws in FO3, although hopefully not talking ones as far as i'm concerned)
 
All the reviews are making me find this game more and more ridiculous each and every time.
Why do they have to improvise on EVERY SINGLE thing? Wtf is that scaling system? Why need a scaling system anyway? Oh wait I forgot.... "Because that's what we know to do best"


:crazy: :crazy: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
I wonder if they're capable of making up any critters of their own. All critters they've mentioned so far are from FO1 and FO2 - even radscorpions, even though there are no scorpions in that area. Why can't they mutate any regional fauna, like the mutant crocs from Tactics 2?

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Mutant_crocodile
 
While it does look better than Oblivion's, it's still scaling. Also, what they say it's going to be and what it's really going to be are probably going to be out of sync. I don't know why they compared it to Gothic when they could have compared it to a more relevant game like... Hmm, what were those games called... Planesca... No... Baldur's Ga... No... OH! Fallout 1 and 2!
 
I don't think FO 1&2 are relevant to this game. Is Half Life relevant to Galactic Civilizations?
That's the exact same degree of relevancy FO1&2 have with FO3....
 
:shrug:

I guess they can compare it to any game they want, since they seem to be composing Fallout 3 of ideas from other games more than from elements taken from Fallout.

Bobbleheads = Cog Tags (Gear of War)
 
Doesn't sound to horrible as long as the areas don't shift up and down to much. Gotta agree with Sander though, what's the point of having it there in the first place? There is still that artificial feeling element that the world somehow reacts to how your character levels up.

Meh, as long as it's not very noticeable in the game I won't care all that much about it.

Guess we will have random loot though... Not really a fan of that either, but it will depend on how it's implemented.
 
If this kind of scaling is properly implemented, then it could be good in terms of maintaining the challenge throughout the game; it can be painful finding yourself at a high level forced to fight endless streams of crappy rats for no loot, just because they're there.

Of course, the flipside is that if the enemies aren't going to scale (if critters have a fixed set of attributes), then it would seem to suggest that you're simply going to have to fight slightly bigger super-rats rather than rats, or whatever.

Also, what are the chances of stumbling around the place exploring, only to find you've locked everything accessible at an unchallenging level of difficulty, whilst still being too weak to enter the more difficult areas.
 
Sounds like a stupid system. When will they get it through their thick heads? Level scaling doesn't work. Except for some random encounters to keep things interesting.

Bunkermensch said:
I wonder how a Fallout done by Piranha Bytes would look like ^^

You'd only be able to play as a man with a boring personality, there'd be no female NPCs of any significance, the storyline would pretend to branch when it actually doesn't and rats would stunlock you to death 35893573 times. :twisted:
 
Bernard Bumner said:
If this kind of scaling is properly implemented, then it could be good in terms of maintaining the challenge throughout the game; it can be painful finding yourself at a high level forced to fight endless streams of crappy rats for no loot, just because they're there.
If the game and areas are designed properly, you won't encounter that anyway.
In effect, they're taking the route of dynamic content over proper design. Bethesda's rather fond of doing that, but it makes for poorer games.

Bernard Bumner said:
Also, what are the chances of stumbling around the place exploring, only to find you've locked everything accessible at an unchallenging level of difficulty, whilst still being too weak to enter the more difficult areas.
Since scaling isn't linear with your level, this could be worked around. And I suppose that we'll still have some fixed high-level area.
 
For me, the problem with oblivion's scaling was not so much the scaling itself, but the way leveling worked. If you "power level", that is, game the system so that you get the maximum attribute boosts every level, then even the leveled monsters get progressively easier. The problem with this is that it is horribly unintuitive, and breaks roleplaying. Basically, you have to stop just before you level up (and sometimes do stupid things like stop using your sword so you won't level up by accident), and go off your quest to exercise the right skills, checking your stats page every time you do. It helps to have an excel spreadsheet on another computer. Without power-leveling, if the player acts in-character with less regard to their stats sheet, the leveled enemies get more and more overwhelming. It's an arms race, and the only way to win is by mini-maxing.

"Locking in" the difficulty of a zone when visited could upset game balance. I can totally envision future F3 walkthroughs telling players to "visit cities V, W, X, Y, and Z before you hit level 10, because they get impossible afterwards!", and game strategies to run all over the world, locking everything in at the easiest difficulty.

It seems unlikely that Bethesda will see this as a problem, as their mantra seems to be "We let the player play the way they want to play. If you don't like a feature, don't do it." This was the response to dozens of Oblivion complaints, from fast-traveling to auto-levelling. "Turn down the difficulty slider if it's too hard... that's what it's there for!"

I disagree with this... Games are fun in a large part because they present a challenge that the player must find a way to overcome. Providing a game-legal way out of the challenge undermines this. Super Mario wouldn't be as fun if you could warp right to Bowser's Castle from the beginning. Mini-golf wouldn't be as fun if every hole had an optional ramp to put you right near the cup. And F3 won't be as fun if you can optionally nerf the hardest parts of the game by visiting them when you're level 1, and then leaving.
 
Back
Top