Did you know? Finesse is actually a terrible trait (FO2)

Y

Yuri_Yslin

First time out of the vault
Here's a funny thing I discovered, being the formula nerd I am.

Even the excellent Per Jorner's guide actively recommended Finesse, calling it a decent trade-off, despite it's actually... detrimental to a typical player in most scenarios, esp. where it counts the most (early game). And that is literally under the best possible circumstance, that is shooting at the eyes.

Let's take a Super Mutant with 5 DT and 40 DR against "normal" damage and assume you're shooting him in the eyes with a .44 magnum using JHP. Which is actually the strongest weapon till Gauss pistol and one you may want to use for the majority of the game.

SM's DR is 40%, but it is increased by +20% from JHP modifier and from additional +30% from finesse.
We arrive at 90% resistance for finesse, 60% without it.

A regular shot will do 2,5 dmage (finesse) and 10 damage (non finesse) on average.
An eye shot will have 68% crit chance without finesse, 78% with it. This is assuming you're playing a typical powergaming character with 8 LK.
Without better criticals, the average critdam is 56 dam (Finesse) or 63 dam (without).
With better crit, assuming it does not instakill, the average critdam is 74 (Finesse), 80 (without). I've taken the instant kill effects off the equation for simplicity sake.

One has to mention that armor piercing critical does not fully penetrate armor, it merely cuts both DR and DT by 80%, and that is multiplicative (so you divide the final DR/DT by 5).

Adding it together, until better criticals (so at levels where it matters most), you are actually reducing your average per-shot damage by around 5%. And after you get better criticals, you improve it.... by a whooping 1%.

It doesn't really change much when you're shooting against a 0 DR creature. roughly same results. The higher DT, the more damage you can squeeze of Finesse tho. Against a Deathclaw (10 DT) Finesse still reduces your damage pre-taking "better criticals" by 4%, but improves it by 2.5% after taking BC.

Now remember, all of that is assuming you shoot them in the eyes. If you target anything BUT the eyes, Finesse will start hampering your damage WAY more due to the "non-armor-piercing damage component" of damage calculation becoming more dominant. This mostly matters early on in the game where you may not yet have the skills/weapons to hit the eyes of every and each critter you encounter.

In other words, finesse is a total waste of time! Pick Small Frame for the +1 Stat point instead ;)

Just some funny maths for nerds.

Cheers.
 
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So would better criticals be better option? Is there a better alternative to Finesse besides not using it?
 
I never picked it.
I play melee and/or unarmed... It's a waste of a Trait when we have the Slayer perk, no matter how good or bad it actually is. :shrug:
 
Sn1p3r187 said:
So would better criticals be better option? Is there a better alternative to Finesse besides not using it?
Click to expand...

Well, Better Criticals is a perk, not a trait. You'll want it for pretty much every character in the game.

The point is, Finesse will be detrimental until you a) can hit the enemies in the eyes every time b) have level 9 and Better Criticals perk.

After that point, until you get Sniper (that is level 21) or Slayer, Finesse will add from 1% to 2.5% to your damage on average, and at level 21, Finesse starts reducing your damage again and you need to Mutate (via Perk) to get rid of it.

That's only 9 levels of extremely marginal utility, +1-2.5% damage is nothing in this game. Which by all means is a waste of Trait.

You want to avoid Finesse, it's not good at all.
 
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I used to pick Finesse simply because raising Critical Chance means it may raises chance of knockout/knockdown too, so I could get some advantage in HtH combat(mostly for Boxing, of course).

Then I regretted picking it so much after punching some bandits and golden geckos over and over, as you calculated how it would be like...
 
Finesse would be somewhat (?) better if you wouldn't get +60% critical hit chance from eye shots anyway.
 
FINESSE IS AWESOME!
Yuri_Yslin said:
Here's a funny thing I discovered, being the formula nerd I am.

Even the excellent Per Jorner's guide actively recommended Finesse, calling it a decent trade-off, despite it's actually... detrimental to a typical player in most scenarios, esp. where it counts the most (early game). And that is literally under the best possible circumstance, that is shooting at the eyes.

Let's take a Super Mutant with 5 DT and 40 DR against "normal" damage and assume you're shooting him in the eyes with a .44 magnum using JHP. Which is actually the strongest weapon till Gauss pistol and one you may want to use for the majority of the game.

SM's DR is 40%, but it is increased by +20% from JHP modifier and from additional +30% from finesse.
We arrive at 90% resistance for finesse, 60% without it.

A regular shot will do 2,5 dmage (finesse) and 10 damage (non finesse) on average.
An eye shot will have 68% crit chance without finesse, 78% with it. This is assuming you're playing a typical powergaming character with 8 LK.
Without better criticals, the average critdam is 56 dam (Finesse) or 63 dam (without).
With better crit, assuming it does not instakill, the average critdam is 74 (Finesse), 80 (without). I've taken the instant kill effects off the equation for simplicity sake.

One has to mention that armor piercing critical does not fully penetrate armor, it merely cuts both DR and DT by 80%, and that is multiplicative (so you divide the final DR/DT by 5).

Adding it together, until better criticals (so at levels where it matters most), you are actually reducing your average per-shot damage by around 5%. And after you get better criticals, you improve it.... by a whooping 1%.

It doesn't really change much when you're shooting against a 0 DR creature. roughly same results. The higher DT, the more damage you can squeeze of Finesse tho. Against a Deathclaw (10 DT) Finesse still reduces your damage pre-taking "better criticals" by 4%, but improves it by 2.5% after taking BC.

Now remember, all of that is assuming you shoot them in the eyes. If you target anything BUT the eyes, Finesse will start hampering your damage WAY more due to the "non-armor-piercing damage component" of damage calculation becoming more dominant. This mostly matters early on in the game where you may not yet have the skills/weapons to hit the eyes of every and each critter you encounter.

In other words, finesse is a total waste of time! Pick Small Frame for the +1 Stat point instead ;)

Just some funny maths for nerds.

Cheers.
Click to expand...
FINESSE IS AWESOME AND DOABLE

Basically, your study was to determine the usefulness of the Finesse trait, and anyone would expect to see you produce critical hit data, and different critical hit opportunities at a minimum, yet you never talk about opportunities. I give you credit for bringing the topic up though.

Here is what you missed on that angle...

1: There are a whopping (21) critical hit opportunities that pierce armor on human targets. Four for head criticals, four for body criticals, four for eye shots, two for groin, three for arm, and three for legs.
2: There are (17) armor piercing critical opportunities against human targets that are NOT eye shots
3: ONLY (3) armor bypassing critical hits are exclusive to Better Criticals.
4 (19) Armor bypassing critical opportunities can be scored WITHOUT Better Criticals
5: (14) Armor bypassing critical opportunities can be scored WITHOUT eye shots, and WITHOUT Better Criticals

You were supposed to talk about how finesse exposed you to greater opportunities, and justify, or fail to justify, how finesse was a force multiplier

Next you comment on about...

"Now remember, all of that is assuming you shoot them in the eyes. If you target anything BUT the eyes, Finesse will start hampering your damage WAY more due to the "non-armor-piercing damage component" of damage calculation becoming more dominant. This mostly matters early on in the game where you may not yet have the skills/weapons to hit the eyes of every and each critter you encounter..

Here are my thoughts here...

1: Eye shots have little to do with anything. And I assure you that if you cannot beat an opponent without Finesse, you certanly dont have a worse chance with it. You would lose the fight either way! My point being that you should run away whether you have finesse, or not.
2: By adding Finesse your "head shots" now have the same critical chance as the "eye shots" used to have. Which means that for the sake of accuracy, or combat planning, you make a head shot, you will have an IDENTICAL chance of scoring a critical hit with the head shot, as you would making eye shots without Finesse. To top it 4 out of 6 HEAD SHOT criticals generate an armor bypassing effect, and the same can be said for Eye shot criticals too.

3: "Run away live to fight another day". Follout is a survival game. You must survive, or you die. So keeping that tone sacred through the entire game WHY would you be engaging anyone in direct combat with sub optimal percentages anyways? Hmm? Because regardless of your circumstances that is a terrible idea! You mention this here "This mostly matters early on in the game where you may not yet have the skills/weapons to hit the eyes of every and each critter you encounter.." but you don't mention the fact that any combat is bad combat in Fallout 2, and should be avoided at all cost, NEAR-REGARDLESS of build, and circumstances.

I could go on here, but I would like to add some more things.

You said: "An eye shot will have 68% critical chance without finesse, 78% with it. This is assuming you're playing a typical powergaming character with 8 LK."

1: This is NOT true. Your actual percentage chance for a critical hit WITHOUT finesse is: 8% Luck + 4.25% accuracy bonus + 60% eye shot bonus. So your adjusted critical chance becomes... 72.25% critical chance for an eyes shot critical. WITH Finesse your critical chance looks like this... 8% Luck + 10% Finesse + 4.25% accuracy bonus + 60% eye shot bonus. So 82.25% WITH finesse.

So your premise was false, and you made a conclusion, and promoted it based off of a false premise. That is not good.

I'll tidy something else up to...

Lets say had 8 Luck, plus Finesse, and you use the "haymaker" punch. What would your adjusted critical chance be?
8% Luck + 10% Finesse + 60% Eye shot bonus + 4.25% accuracy bonus + 15% Haymaker bonus. So... 97.25% chance of scoring a critical hit with a haymaker, and ALL by level 9.

So when you look at my research Finesse becomes awesome! Your getting more critical hits, which offer 19 Armor Bypassing critical without even adding better criticals in. And I haven't even added a single rank of more criticals into the equation yet!

-Fallout Entertainment Industries
 
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Aaron Wieland said:
This is NOT true. Your actual percentage chance for a critical hit WITHOUT finesse is: 8% Luck + 10% Finesse + 4.25% accuracy bonus + 60% eye shot bonus. So your adjusted critical chance becomes... 72.25% critical chance for an eyes shot critical. WITH Finesse your critical chance looks like this... 8% Luck + 10% Finesse + 4.25% accuracy bonus + 60% eye shot bonus. So 82.25% WITH finesse.
Click to expand...

Its actually 62.25% without finesse and 72.25% with finesse, you added the 10% of finesse in your "without" finesse calculus.
 
John Cassidy Joestar said:
Its actually 62.25% without finesse and 72.25% with finesse, you added the 10% of finesse in your "without" finesse calculus.
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My math was 100% correct. 72.25% without Finesse. 82.25% with Finesse. Zero errors.

Thank you for spotting a typo though!

-Fallout Entertainment Industries
 
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Aaron Wieland said:
My math was 100% correct. 72.25% without Finesse. 82.25% with Finesse. Zero errors.

Thank you for spotting a typo though!

-Fallout Entertainment Industries
Click to expand...

I have a question. What is "4.25% accuracy bonus" ? Where is this comming from? Not dissin you only asking.

Also one more question: does armor piercing from crits ignore armor or give "armor piercing" trait (80% pen) ?
 
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