DNA evidence vs Racism

Thrawn said:
it proves that while the American justice system is flawed, it is not corrupt.
It's one hell of a flaw though, if it allows the conviction of innocents by disregarding evidence, using questionable witnesses etc etc. See also the case of one Randall Dale Adams who sat for some 12 years for a crime he didn't commit before a guy named Errol Morris drew attention to the case by making a documentary called The Thin Blue Line. The fact that white men are also convicted using such methods shows that the existence of racism merely deepens an already serious flaw. In other words, it's first and foremost a problem with the system - it's not only racism.

Thrawn said:
I think the DA that gets a man wrongly convicted is as guilty as the lawyer who lets an innocent man go free, only to commint another crime.
Um, yeah...let's pre-emptively put all them innocent men in prison, because they MIGHT commit a crime in the future. What a pity we can't have a bunch of prescient slaves to help us out like in Minority Report. Seriously, what the fuck do you mean by that last part?
 
Thrawn said:
My favorite part of all of these stories of convicts being exonerated, other than the part where an innocent man is freed, ist that it proves that while the American justice system is flawed, it is not corrupt.

What did Texas or even the justice system gain by releasing an innocent man? Absolutly nothing. In fact, they will most likely be sued millions of dollars for their mistake. But because we strive for a fair system, we allow proceedings like this to take place.

I think the DA that gets a man wrongly convicted is as guilty as the lawyer who lets an innocent man go free, only to commint another crime.

Which part of "DA putting in jail everyone accused of crime by any means necessary" is not corrupt? Seriously. Continental legal system, while not perfect, is way more fair than this crap.
 
I am not so sure Mik-

Ideally, in the US the court system is a separate institution for the administration of justice and the DA is supposed to provide full disclosure of the evidence to be brought to trial- that includes both evidence that incriminates and which could exonerate the accused.

In this case, that didn't happen.
The tension for the prosecution is his desire to make convictions vs the desire to provide justice.

The DA at this time was ambition, wanted to maintain a "hard line" against crime and, like many, saw the law as a vehicle to keep blacks repressed.

But those are political policies and we can see the same in continental systems as well. Indeed, in the US and UK system, the courts are supposed to follow rule of precedent and appeal, emphazing a system of confrontation and competition between the sides.

Is it flawed? Yes. Sure mistakes are made. But is this really better than the continental system where the court is much more tied to the institutions of the state and those that rule?

What makes the current continental system preferable might be that its political system has been more inclusive of social rights. Of the three forms of government that emerged during the interwar years- liberalism, social democracy and facism- it is facism that lost out.

What you have in Europe are much more liberal political systems based on accommodation and inclusion. In the US, class relations have been more difficult.

Lower class workers suffered under the red scare and generally Americans are anti-Union (compared to Europe). Race rather than class was the cleavage in politics.

However the courts in the US have been a means by which individuals can campaign for their rights under the constitutional system. So the law is a vehicle for equality and justice against the political designs of those who rule. That's why determining who sits on the Supreme Court is such an important issue. When the court is packed with upper class corporate attorneys- than we're fucked (pre New Deal). When the court is more liberal, than we have greater civil rights- (1960s-70s).

In contrast, under civil law systems, the courts hvae a more limited role to play and serve more as the agents of the state.

At least that's my impression, but I am open to challenge on that.
 
Neamos said:
Damnit, the left is as racist as it comes. The right generally treats others as PEOPLE not POOR OPPRESSED BLACK/LATINO/ASIAN/NATIVE.

I'm sick of people like you blaming racist bs on the right.

Do you also believe that Hitler was a leftist?

You know, national socialist

You can't deny the facts for long, lieberals

No, Hitler was a Nazi. Just like Stalin was a soviet.

Rightwing does not mean nazi any more than leftwing means soviet. Stop lumping us with fucks like them.

Since we're talking about people 60 to 70 years ago I'd like to point out that Roosevelt signed the order to put the Japanese Americans into concentration camps. Roosevelt was such a right wing fascist.

welsh said:
@ Ah-teen and Mord Sith

Bullshit-
What you have is a DA that broke the law in order to maintain his conviction rate by putting innocent blacks in jail for crimes they didn't commit. That the DA was white, that this was Texas and that it was policy to keep Blacks repressed was a policy that went back nearly 100 years to the post Civil Period. It is only a step up from the wide spread lynchings that occurred against Blacks up unti about 1920.

You can't say this isn't racism when its clearly a racist agenda.

WELSH YOU ARE A DUMB FUCK! Twice I've said the DA was racist, Twice I've said the DA deserved to be punished. REEEAAAAADD my entire post before you dare say I don't believe hes not racist.

welsh said:
Neamos- you're an idiot.

First Hitler- was a nationalist socialist- but for all intensive purposes he used middle class voters to come down hard against the supposed leftist threat of the day- not socialists, but communists.

The rise of communism, generally motivated by increased demands from organized labor for a more equitable distribution of economic wealth and political power (because of the exploitation of rapid industrialization), led to different patterns of political formation. In some areas you had incorporation of workers into the political fold and the creation of keynesian welfare states. The US, England, etc. In other states you had repression of the left through violence- and so the rise of corporativist single party states that took advantage of democracies to authoritarian dictatorships- Nazis. Other states (Sweden, Denmark) went for social democracy.

Here read this= Liberalism, Fascism, Or Social Democracy: Social Classes and the Political Origins of Regimes in interwar Europe By Gregory M. Luebbert

The Nazi's weren't agents of the left but the right. And they still are.

And if anyone thinks the right wing isn't discriminatory, they should get their head out of their ass.

If anyone thinks the left isn't discriminatory, they should get their head out of their ass.

Example-
Bush's administration has generally led to a roll back in many of the social services for inner city (generally minority) communities yet big tax breaks for generally white upper and middle classes.
Programs that haven't done any measurable good for 30 years. Those communities were just as poor if not more so than they were when those policies were created.

Tax breaks for the rich all the way. They pay 70 % of the taxes in this country. They also own businesses and higher new workers and or give pay increases when they have more money. Studies have shown this for years.

The Bush administration has pushed for laws that ban gays equal rights, largely supported by the right.

Bush is a cunt. Just as Obama is ether a racist, oblivious, or a punk willing to do anything to get elected. I would vote for Hillary, who I hate a great deal, over ether of them. Thankfully I don't have to.

The Bush administration has passed law in which it gives the state the power to give money to churches, but then those churches (acting as state surrogates) can discriminate against non-believers. And is it a surprise that the primary beneficiaries have been white churches.
This goes back to Bush being a power abusing cunt. Its already been covered a thousand times. Dare I say, NO SHIT!

You talk about "giving people something they didn't earn." Except generally that skips that the primary beneficiaries of that policy are families that, for generations have managed to exploit others that either didn't share their race or social class.

If you have no right to privileges, then no one has the right to born with a silver spoon in their mouth, or to have a wealthy family, or to prosper from the inheritance of the dead. Because that's inequality as well.

That first part said exactly opposite what I think you meant so I'll leave that alone.

From government. Just because your both poor and black doesn't mean you should get a grant over someone who is also poor and white.

Those with silver spoons generally don't need these programs, so its not even an issue.

I'm not saying the poor shouldn't have special grants. I'm saying blacks shouldn't have special grants. Its racial profiling leaving everyone else in the dirt while someone is raised up because of their race.

Since we're on the topic of how much money you start out with I'll tell you my parents finical story.

They lived out of their van for a time while they had 3 kids. Now, they not only make enough to own their own home. They have enough to put all eight of their children though universities. Their children are buying houses in their twenties and thirties when it took until my parents were in their fifties.

I very much don't believe the poor are oppressed. I have a Hispanic friend. He's forty now. Came here from Mexico with a back pack and a blanket. He currently owns his own a couple auto repair shops here in the most right wing part of this particularly right wing state. He belongs to the minority who pay 70% of taxes. IE the rich.

Don't give me your bullshit about how the white rights oppress other races.

How do you create a state based on equality when those who rule are willing to tolerate if not further the exploitation of the poor by the rich, or by the racially dominate against the racially inferior?
Exploitation of the poor? Like giving them jobs?

The poor are poor because they don't know how else to live. They don't know or unwilling to do what they need to to not be poor. I have no pity for them. Nor do I have malice for them. They are given every opportunity to succeed(opportunities mostly given by the rich I might add). But lots of them don't take those opportunities.

That's not to say that poor whites aren't getting fucked. They've been getting fucked probably as long as poor blacks and other ethnic groups. Its a shame that that racial politics has been used as a cloak to hide the inequalities perpetuated by the right.

Fact- higher levels of social inequality have been consistently achieved by the conservatives and right wing. Which is great if you're a member of that class.

But if you're a member of the lower and middle class and you're supporting the right, then you might as well smile as you bend over and get fucked in the ass.
Actually no its not. The upper class relies on the lower classes to stay that way. If the lower classes suffer they suffer. The upper class needs workers. Happy workers are well paid and treated fairly. Unhappy workers leave or do shoody work cutting into the profits of the upper class.

History has shown that repeatedly. The poorest time in america excluding the great depression was when the upper class used the lower classes as slave labor.

And that's the great strategy. Hume realized that a dominant ruling class need not dominate other classes to stay in power. They need only to keep potential rivals divided. So the republican party creates a agenda in which it promotes the anger of both poor minorities and poor whites. This means that both groups turn on each other, which allows both to continue to get fucked by rich.

Are you republican? If not how do you know what the "republican agenda" is? Because I've been told by republicans that the democrats agenda is to to keep potential rivals devided so there is only weak opposition so they can set up a communist(soviet) state.

And if you don't believe, just check the level of inequality in the US now compared to how it was 50 years ago.

Which is another problem. The period in which the US enjoyed its greatest economic growth- was also a period when inequality was at its lowest.

Last time we had such great inequality- we had the Great Depression. And now, guess what- recession.
No I believe you. Guess what, your right. I might also add that history has shown that minorities often get blamed when things go badly. My example, the black plague and the jews. Nazi germany, and they jews(and other races <,,<)

That and what I said before. I don't know as much as I should about the great depression, but I do remember a depression from earlier in US history. The time of the robber barons. A time when capitalism went out of control and created a communist like state.

One cooperation getting all the money they paid to their employees. Because they owned the buildings their employees lived in, they owned the transportation, they owned the shops.

I can appreciate upper class whites campaigning for Republican causes- afterall, they are only promoting their self interest. But if you are middle class or lower class, black or white, and you're supporting the Republicans, than you're a fucking idiot.

Well your a fucking idiot too because I say so :( !!!!!! Not everyone agrees with you. Nether do most things I've read. Especially studies on poor put out by leftist groups. But you wont read them because those in power of the left, Just like those in power of the right, don't want you to read stuff that makes them look bad.

Left or right, we are all the same, and so are our leaders. Different policies. Same politician. You should read more conservative literature. I know I try to read liberal stuff.

You don't have to agree with it. I know I don't agree with most of what I read. Just consider it.

__________________________________

You know what, lets define racism.

Welsh, and any of you others, I want you to define racism. Put it in the bottom of your next post marked by a line.
 
Neamos- you're an idiot.

Pretty good post summing up why Hitler isn't a leftist

No, you just didn't 'get it'
This guy is a gay, white, middle-class republican who thinks liberals are just as racist as the marvelous people in Alabama who aren't going to vote 'for the nigger or the cunt' and that the upper class of America is opressed
I just wanted to find out what other flavors of crazy he is.

Thanks for the post anyway
 
Welsh you have to admit that it isn't always the rich oppressing the poor.

Me and my father owned a chinese restraunt. One for 6 years and one for 4 years. Although the first one I worked on weekends, I still routinely pulled 6 or 7 hours per day on the weekends.

As for the second one, I pulled 10 hour days everyday for 4 years. Now ask yourself how many americans do you know are willing to work 10 plus hours a day on the "hope" of making a profit? The house I live in now wouldn't exist were it not for me and my family working our asses off.

Honestly both sides are guilty as fuck. Thats why I lament that their isn't a stronger middle party that can represent what most americans want. If anything, the fact that there are republicans and democrats is the problem. It isn't the blue states or the fucking red states, its the fucking united states.
 
welsh said:
I am not so sure Mik-

Ideally, in the US the court system is a separate institution for the administration of justice and the DA is supposed to provide full disclosure of the evidence to be brought to trial- that includes both evidence that incriminates and which could exonerate the accused.

Yes, a separate branch of the government - judicial. However, as you said, full disclosure of evidence is an ideal.

In this case, that didn't happen.
The tension for the prosecution is his desire to make convictions vs the desire to provide justice.

The DA at this time was ambition, wanted to maintain a "hard line" against crime and, like many, saw the law as a vehicle to keep blacks repressed.

This is one of the reasons the system is flawed, even corrupt, as law can be used instrumentally to a greater degree than in continental systems. Here, attorneys that withhold evidence or in other ways try to manipulate the court proceedings more often than not get a disciplinary discharge.

But those are political policies and we can see the same in continental systems as well. Indeed, in the US and UK system, the courts are supposed to follow rule of precedent and appeal, emphazing a system of confrontation and competition between the sides.

Is it flawed? Yes. Sure mistakes are made. But is this really better than the continental system where the court is much more tied to the institutions of the state and those that rule?

Uh, welsh, courts are also a separate branch of government here. This is stated in pretty much every European constitution that courts are a separate, independent power.

What you interpret as close ties to government is merely the lack of the ability to create law with their sentences. The judge can interpret law, but cannot create it via precedents. While this limits the adaptability of the law somewhat, it increases it's stability and fairness, as the judge has to operate within the limits the legal act imposes on him. And if he screws up, there is always at least one higher instance you can appeal to, which will review the sentence and the explanation given for it.

What makes the current continental system preferable might be that its political system has been more inclusive of social rights. Of the three forms of government that emerged during the interwar years- liberalism, social democracy and facism- it is facism that lost out.

What you have in Europe are much more liberal political systems based on accommodation and inclusion. In the US, class relations have been more difficult.

Well, agreed on that.

Lower class workers suffered under the red scare and generally Americans are anti-Union (compared to Europe). Race rather than class was the cleavage in politics.

I kind of wonder why Americans are generally anti-Union... could you elaborate on that, please?

However the courts in the US have been a means by which individuals can campaign for their rights under the constitutional system. So the law is a vehicle for equality and justice against the political designs of those who rule. That's why determining who sits on the Supreme Court is such an important issue. When the court is packed with upper class corporate attorneys- than we're fucked (pre New Deal). When the court is more liberal, than we have greater civil rights- (1960s-70s).

This is the unfairness I'm talking about. The court is supposed to enforce the law in a neutral and fair way. However, if it is given the power to create law, it's prone to becoming a biased, unfair institution, examples of how it became one you posted.

I'm not denigrating the merits of common law courts, that is, allowing citizens to campaign for their rights etc., as you said. What I am rating negatively, though, is how courts can easily become agents of intolerance and unfairness, as it was in this case, and unknowingly to boot, thanks to a crooked DA.

In contrast, under civil law systems, the courts hvae a more limited role to play and serve more as the agents of the state.

At least that's my impression, but I am open to challenge on that.

It isn't limited, it's simply different. While common law courts have the ability to enforce and create the law, civil law ones have the ability to enforce and interpret the law. Only the legislative power has the ability to create the law.

I may have screwed up my points somewhere along the line, if so, I will do my best to clear them up.
 
Ungh - you're missing the point completely Ah-Teen.

While no one is saying that every right-wing person is somehow a racist, it is a simple fact that a lot of right-wing policies have (intentional or no) racist effects.

This is a simple effect of the basic ideology. While a leftist ideology generally relies on a society's responsibility to its people, and equality for all men (hence racism is inherently absent from left-wing ideologies), a right-wing ideology is centered more around the individual's power and an individual's responsibility to his society.


Your point that giving people of a racial background advantages is racism is a good point, but that form of racism is a lot less harmful. This doesn't excuse it (and lumping this in with the left is no more fair than lumping in racism with the right, by the way).

Note - I am not condoning preferential treatment based on race.
 
Ah-Teen said:
Bush is a cunt. Just as Obama is ether a racist, oblivious, or a punk willing to do anything to get elected. I would vote for Hillary, who I hate a great deal, over ether of them. Thankfully I don't have to.
So, McCain? Wow, way to trample your own rights, man.
John McCain said:
I do not believe gay marriage should be legal. I do not believe gay marriage should be legal.
He's also a hypocrite on the issue.
John McCain said:
I believe that gay marriage should not be legal. Okay? But I don't believe that we should discriminate against any American because that's not the nature of America. Okay?
 
DarkCorp said:
Welsh you have to admit that it isn't always the rich oppressing the poor.

Me and my father owned a chinese restraunt. One for 6 years and one for 4 years. Although the first one I worked on weekends, I still routinely pulled 6 or 7 hours per day on the weekends.

As for the second one, I pulled 10 hour days everyday for 4 years. Now ask yourself how many americans do you know are willing to work 10 plus hours a day on the "hope" of making a profit? The house I live in now wouldn't exist were it not for me and my family working our asses off.

Honestly both sides are guilty as fuck. Thats why I lament that their isn't a stronger middle party that can represent what most americans want. If anything, the fact that there are republicans and democrats is the problem. It isn't the blue states or the fucking red states, its the fucking united states.

Your making me smile ^,,^

Neamos said:
Neamos- you're an idiot.

Pretty good post summing up why Hitler isn't a leftist

No, you just didn't 'get it'
This guy is a gay, white, middle-class republican who thinks liberals are just as racist as the marvelous people in Alabama who aren't going to vote 'for the nigger or the cunt' and that the upper class of America is opressed
I just wanted to find out what other flavors of crazy he is.

Thanks for the post anyway

This guy is a gay lower-class independent who thinks some policy is racist intentional or not. I live off 50 dollars a month after school expenses. I live with a friend while going to school. He lets me live with him in exchange for my paying for Internet and some food.

THEM marvelous people in Alabama are in majority good decent people who've been oppressed by racist white christian fundamentalists fucks since the civil war. They got their day when civil rights came about. They won. Thats not to say there aren't more racist and more fundies in Alabama than in say Utah.

Sander said:
Ungh - you're missing the point completely Ah-Teen.

While no one is saying that every right-wing person is somehow a racist, it is a simple fact that a lot of right-wing policies have (intentional or no) racist effects.

This is a simple effect of the basic ideology. While a leftist ideology generally relies on a society's responsibility to its people, and equality for all men (hence racism is inherently absent from left-wing ideologies), a right-wing ideology is centered more around the individual's power and an individual's responsibility to his society.


Your point that giving people of a racial background advantages is racism is a good point, but that form of racism is a lot less harmful. This doesn't excuse it (and lumping this in with the left is no more fair than lumping in racism with the right, by the way).

Note - I am not condoning preferential treatment based on race.

Now that I can accept. I greatly dissagree with the part where racism is inherently absent from left-wing ideologies. For years after the civil war, much of the southern leadership did what it could to help it's voters while sponsoring terrorism of blacks preventing them from speaking out against the racist policies. They felt it was their responsibility as leadership to prevent moral degradation by allowing blacks to be equal in society.

Racist policies are often created BECAUSE the society feels it's their responsibility to it's people.

WE GOTTA KEEP THEM BLACKS AWAY FROM OUR GIRLS OR THE''LL RAPE 'UM!
BLACKS SPREAD DISEASE AND CRIME!
GOTA KEEP UM AWAY FROM PO LITE SO CI ET T, BECAUSE THEY CAUSE TROUBLE!

Look that bs up. Find a white power website. They want the state, NOT THEMSELVES, but the state to force blacks into a subclass.

Racism can happen in anywhere for any reason. On the left currently it's usually they give people of other races more, because of race. You can beat a fag, but you can't beat a black man.

When I say the left is racist, thats what I mean. Giving special privilege, giving superior protection.

I want the same protection against hate as they have.


--------------------

Now it's come to my attention that we may be speaking the same words and not meaning the same thing. (Damn I love quoting fallout)

When I say moderate, I mean left and rights who are in the center of the political spectrum.
 
Taking a totally different tack here: The Dallas DA's office is corrupt as fuck. I work with a guy whose brother lives in the Dallas area, and we've been following the crazy ass stuff that's been going on out that way (not just this DNA evidence blocking, but also some really repulsive e-mails) and this is far less of a racist issue as it is a systemic corruption issue.

The Dallas DA is rotten through and through, racist or no (though there's LOTS of evidence that SOB is racist.) Texas justice fucking sucks.
 
@ Darkcorp - that your father is a small business owner means he's middle class.

Its either the rich or the ruling class. Pick your poison. Not likely that you will see a poor person oppress a rich person.

As for people working more than ten hours? Consider the great number of poor folks who work two jobs to support their families- I would say quite a lot. Given that real wages have gone down since the 1970s, things have gotten worse for the poor.

Check out Freakonomics- the chapter on Crack Dealers- and how little they get paid and how few jobs there are for them. They're not selling Crack because it pays better, because most of them make less than they would at McDonald's. the problem is, they can't get that job.

As the Boss says, "All men want to be rich, rich men want to be king, and the king ain't satisfied till he rules everything."

For all this nonsense that Obama is elitist- what they are really saying is that he's educated. One doesn't get born by single mother, raised by working class grandparents, and then work his way to law school and becomes an elite. Ironic that McCain and Hillary call him an elite, when the Clintons have made over $100 million over the last seven years, and McCain's wife stands to inherit a fortune. This while Obamas have just finished paying off student loans.

@ Mik- Prosecuting Attorneys on this side of the ocean who withhold evidence are at risk of being disbarred. In this case, the person is at risk of doing jail time.

Yes, you're right that the Courts can make law, but mostly its through the interpretation of either the law or statutes that are unclear. The Right to Free Speech, for instance, is not without limits. Who gets equal protection, etc.

And that's where the courts in the US are somewhat distinct from the political process- at least in the federal system. Once in office, the judges remain. They are not subject to political control. This allows them to interpret the law and the constitution in ways that might not be kosher with the popular opinion, but which continue to make legally logical sense and which prevents what the Framer's called, "The tyranny of the majority."

Example of the "tyranny of the majority" the Republican attack against giving gays the right to marriage (and calling it a "defense of marriage' = clever packaging). It is the Courts that cracked open discrimination with Brown 1 and Brown 2, and it was the courts that have interpreted the Equal Protection Clause to extend the same rights to everyone.

Because it only took 100 years from the Civil War to the Voting Rights Act that Blacks really got the chance to vote and access to political power.

In the meantime- political disempowerment means social and economic inferiority. Why? Because whites didn't want to share buses, schools and other public servants with Blacks. Police repression (such as the DA in this case) or Jim Crow or the lynchings, were all means to keep Blacks repressed by dominant white society. Which is even better if you're rich and white, because this way you can keep poor whites and poor blacks against each other-

Divide and conquer.

And it was the Court, acting as the guardian of the Constitution, that pushed that when politically it was very difficult to do. Congress may allow majorities to rule, but the Court protects the interests of the individual and the minority.

Affirmative Action was designed to address the consequence of 100 years of doing little to change the relationship between races and overcome that political disempowerment and economic distribution that had favored whites over blacks.

And why? Because you have peaceful Martin Luther King campaigning for Civil Rights (and gets assassinated for it) and then you have the Panthers and other less peaceful groups who were willing to use violence to further their rights. Given that choice- ethnic violence or ethnic compromise- the decision to go with compromise was the right one.

But what about worker rights? Or the rights of the poor? You ask why the union movement never picked up.

Short answer- the US is predominantly a rural and agricultural country. Yes we have big cities, but the days of manufacturing were fairly short-lived (the industrial revolution through the 1960s and since then we've been moving to services). Furthermore manufacturing was concentrated in various regions that were geographically seperate. Small farmers, in contrast, work their land with their hands- these are not folks that will not sympathize with an ideology that promises to take away their meager property.

In Europe you have a highly urbanized population and you had union workers who were able to become politicized. In Europe, the far left is communism and socialism is more of a moderate response. But in the US you have very powerful rural classes and, until the last 20 years or so, lots of small farmers. Communism wouldn't have survived and Socialism was unpopular.

As they did everywhere, unions organized because capital owners exploited them. Constitutional Law prior to the New Deal has countless cases of labor abuse that are shocking even today.

Note that while the Unions were organizing, Blacks were also campaigning for equal rights- so you had already a divided lower class.

Similar currents in Europe are being felt in the US. Anarchism leads to the assassination of leaders in Europe and the US. But Communism becomes a real threat, and leads to two Red Scares. Many of the leading Free Speech cases on political speech begins with the government wrestling with how much freedom should they allow to Communist organizers.

But as communism becomes seen as a threat in the US- Russian Revolution, Red Scare, Rise of leftists during the Great Depression and then the Second Red Scare that occurs along with the development of the Cold War, communist leaders are becoming hugely unpopular and then purged.

(If you read Dashell Hammett's Red Harvest, you see a bit of the politics of small towns and the small communist/union movement- and what happens).

With the end of the communist leadership of unions, than another power fills the vacuum of union leadership. Sometimes that was organized crime.

But the long story short- unions were never popular in the US because, I suspect, small farmers and rural America didn't see the purpose.

As for whose court is better. Generally, I am against courts where the judges get elected as the court's job is to interpret the law, not play to public opinion. WHich is the better system? In the US some jurisdictions allow for the election of judges. In others (the federal system) the judge has to be appointed and reviewed.

What I see of the civil system is that the courts are more the agent of the state- the appliers of what the legislatures decree. In the US, the courts do that too, but they have more flex to apply the law . But even here they must abide by precedent- so the courts are inherently conservative institutions.

Whether this allows the institutions to be abused-
Institutions are created by social actors who engage in on-going conflicts over material gains. We can interpret those material gains broadly to include economic wealth and politial power. Institutions are the consequence of those battles, an occassionally, those compromises.

@Neamos-
"This person"?

@AH-Teen- a less kind Admin would ban you, so be careful. We may not be back in the days when Admins banned for simple stupidity, but mind your words.

Have you been to Alabama? I have. Montgomery, home of Martin Luther King's Church, where Rosa Parks took a bus ride, where the battle lines of the Civil Rights Movement happened, remains a divided city between those who celebrate the Civil Rights movement and those who glorify the Civil War and the Seperate but Equal. And the city is split in half demographically.

That you don't get affirmative action and what the purpose it, is understandable. It is racist. But its also meant to be a self-correcting device, to overcome economic and political marginalization that occurred for 100 years and which require a Voting Rights Act, Brown v Board, a Civil Rights Movement and which led to the burning of cities.

White had a simple choice- they could either do this peacefully and build that world that Martin Luther King dreamed of, or they could live in the world where Black Militants were shooting white cops. Either the country got past the racial divisions or it fought over them. That was the basic choice. Affirmative Action was the right one.

And in the process- it worked. Despite what you say 30 years haven't done anything... that's wrong. Back in the 1960s the great majority of Blacks were living in poverty. Now, roughly 1/3 of blacks live in poverty and most have entered the middle class with a few making it to the upper class. More blacks might have been able to climb out of poverty except for two things- Crack in the late 1980s early 1990s that turned back two decades of social-economic advancement and the Bush administration.

Of course white racists want to control the state. The state is an institution for the mobilization of bias with a monopoly of legitimate bias. It is the mechanism through which ruling classes further their hegemony. Happily, most of the racists asshole are too stupid or incompetent to be an effective challenge (although it is interesting to note that the number of such movements has increased over the last 7 years while W and company and their "war on terror" have turned a blind eye to far right militants).

"Tax Breaks for the Rich" hasn't worked twice- Under Reagan and Bush. Both cases led to recession and both cases led to deficits. Only when you taxed the rich did you have really sustainable economic development and a decrease in inequality for everyone. That's why Hilary is so popular among the blue collar workers- because their quality of life was better than under idiot Bush.

And if you don't see that the Republican game is about divide and conquer- than you're foolish or blind. That Bush's financial supporters came from the top 1/10 of the top 1% and while his electoral support came from generally poor but conservative Christians - allowing him to win in 04.

You don't believe the poor are oppressed? No one is so blind as those who shall not see. I teach at a public university and get kids from both rich (predominantly white) neighborhoods and poor (predominantly black) neighborhoods. I have a lot of respect for my black students who work really hard to get ahead. But they are definitely behind in terms of education background before they even get to college.

And why? Because there is no right to an equal education- San Antonio School District vs Rodriques basically said that being poor was not a suspect class and there was no civil right to an education.

Conservative Court decision means that if you're poor you're fucked.

Which corresponds with the fact that over the last 40 years, Americans have been enjoying fewer civil rights. Doubt it? Check out the history of Constitutional cases.

Simply-
Conservative Courts are appointed by Republicans = fewer individual rights.

You don't want to hear that Whites oppress Blacks? What? Like the DA in the case above? You mean the whole history of Jim Crow is fiction?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

We call it Jim Crow. But internationally it has another name- Apartheid.

You're argument- poor are poor because they don't know how to live. So I guess you're arguing tha the poor deserve to be poor because they're just stupid? And the entire conditions of their existence doesn't seem to matter? That your chances of climbing the social ladder are much harder if you're poor than rich?

Bullshit.


"They are given every opportunity to succeed?" Yeah.... with all the social spending that has been cut in the last 15 years, with an administration that won't give health care to poor kids.

Every opportunity? Get your head out of your ass. Seriously, "Happy workers are well paid and treated fairly." What bullshit.

Real wages have gone down over 30 years. That's why we're talking about social class and why the workers are so pissed off, and why W and the Republicans are so unpopular.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Racism-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
 
Funny how once again I am assaulted simply because I believe in equality, not being politically correct or favoring any particular race, creed, color, or religion, but because I believe in pure equality.

With a bleeding heart you will do as much harm as you do good Welsh, just as my Jaded heart will do the same in the opposite spectrum.

I can never say I have been rich, I was born and by the time I was about 5 my family went bankrupt.

I was constantly picked on and attacked by my peers and voted to be the one most likely to bring a gun to school and shoot everyone by my peers in high school.

And you know what I walked away with, I'm now busting my arse as a web designer and making a modest living, I owned my own house by the time I was twenty because I saved money for 3 years and lucked out when going house shopping and I help out financially and physically with two events in the city (Both based from the Anime club I belong to.)

I'm not bragging, but I had next to nothing in life, and every day I would have some elitist snob or system abuser thrown in my face reminding me what kind of fucked up world I live in.

I don't expect to be better than anyone else, however I do want to see people treated as equals, based on circumstances rather than race, creed, color or religion.

Those that need it, should get it, those that don't shouldn't, plain and simple, I lived in the core of the city for almost a decade before I moved out on my own, even then I didn't stray too far, I've seen the system abused in so many ways it would make you cry Welsh.

For every single one of your students that makes it to school, there's about 10 that are perfectly content abusing the system when they don't have to, just because they can and because it's easy/free money!

I've told you about the child farmers, correct, how about the welfare fraud artists, maybe we can talk about the gangers, the drug dealers, the sniffers, the lysol chuggers, the party animals, or just the crazy fucks down the lane who burn shit for giggles.

There's no sense to some of these people, but because we don't want to offend the minority of the minority we treat them with kid gloves and they know it.

I'm more concerned about the jackass who's pushing drugs onto the kids in my neighborhood school than offending someone's sensibilities as far as his particular ethnicity, even though it means he gets a slap on the wrist and he's back out in a week.
 
welsh said:
Fuck, the DA behind this should be tossed in jail, and if anyone died in prison as a result, the DA should be charged with manslaughter or murder.

If by these two comments you're referring to Henry Wade (who was ultimately accountable for every illegally obtained conviction made during his tenure) then the first one is impossible since the man has been dead for over 7 years. With luck, some of his underlings will be fried for this.
 
@Welsh

The democrats are first to scream "poverty=failure". I notice you bring up the case with blacks but you fail to mention all the other minorities that have overcome both poverty and racism. IE the Irish, Asians, Germans, Jews, etc, etc. The chinese in the past were no different than the blacks. Hell most chinese were considered worthless and expendable in the mines and on the railroads. The Jews were almost universally hated. The Irish were looked upon with great disdain. It goes on and on.

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? What happened to learning about investing instead of blinging up ones Supra? What about a culture that condemns someone for being intelligent and labeling them a "white wannabe", or "uncle tom". I am sure that you have heard both Bill Cosby and Barack criticising this increasingly popular cultural phenomenon. Where are the Jews/Asians/Irish protests blaming the white man for all of their woes?

Again personal responsibility. What about all those families out there have way too many kids than they can economically support? Whatever happened to personal responsibility in regards to learning the language of a country when one immigrates? Why do I see Basura everywhere but no chinese characters or trash in german, etc, etc? Why do I always hear democrats talking about how important the black or hispanic votes are? What the fuck about the rest of the minorities in this country? Where the hell are the esl programs that teach in chinese or the native language of other minorities instead of just spanish? I know my elementary and highschool didn't have it.

You bring up education. But whatabout all those dipfuck shit kids who refuse to learn? You know those dumbfucks that just have to talk or pass notes while the teacher is talking. Those same jackasses who have every opportunity to learn proper english among other subjects but yet continue to speak ebonics. I know the slaves were mistreated and were not properly educated. But fuck man, its been how long since then? Theres no fucking reason for ebonics when english is taught to everyone. Yes schools need funding but at the same time throwing money at a problem isn't going to make it go away. What about more teacher responisibility? Leanring needs to be made interesting and fun. Kids need to be gauged that they actually understand the material instead of relying on bullshit tests and homework. How else would you explain why most people can't remember shit they learned in highschool? How about a program that focuses on what subjects students are good at? Just because someone sucks at math doesn't mean he can't be a latent genius in another field.

Once again both sides are equally guilty. Its politics pure and simple. The republicans cater to the rich and white. Their weapon is money and power. The democrats cater to the other side of the spectrum. Their primary weapon is guilt and power through it. Why doesn't this country stop being politically correct and just come out and fucking confronts both parties and the injustice that both are guilty of?

PS: About the crack dealer topic. Have you ever been to places like Burger King or McDonalds? Have you tried to apply yourself? I have after we sold our family business. Since I worked mostly in the resteraunt, I never had much experience in other jobs such as call centers, medical jobs, DES, etc, etc. Those McDonald jobs have extremely high turnover rates. The teenagers that dominate those same said workplaces are almost always late and often miss work completely. If anything, those jobs crave and are in dire need of consistent workers with a strong work ethic. Not a work ethic of "I got paid so I don;t need to work till I need more money again". I know once again because not only have I applied to Subway and gotten the job but I have also managed hiring and retaining workers for our business.

You can quote freaknomics but I quote actual life experience.
 
welsh said:
Ironic that McCain and Hillary call him an elite, when the Clintons have made over $100 million over the last seven years, and McCain's wife stands to inherit a fortune. This while Obamas have just finished paying off student loans.

Doesn't that strike you that he might be... oh I don't know... A noob?

I'll really read your post tomarrow, right now I just couldn't pass that up.
 
@ Mik- Prosecuting Attorneys on this side of the ocean who withhold evidence are at risk of being disbarred. In this case, the person is at risk of doing jail time.

Yes, you're right that the Courts can make law, but mostly its through the interpretation of either the law or statutes that are unclear. The Right to Free Speech, for instance, is not without limits. Who gets equal protection, etc.

And that's where the courts in the US are somewhat distinct from the political process- at least in the federal system. Once in office, the judges remain. They are not subject to political control. This allows them to interpret the law and the constitution in ways that might not be kosher with the popular opinion, but which continue to make legally logical sense and which prevents what the Framer's called, "The tyranny of the majority."

Example of the "tyranny of the majority" the Republican attack against giving gays the right to marriage (and calling it a "defense of marriage' = clever packaging). It is the Courts that cracked open discrimination with Brown 1 and Brown 2, and it was the courts that have interpreted the Equal Protection Clause to extend the same rights to everyone.

Because it only took 100 years from the Civil War to the Voting Rights Act that Blacks really got the chance to vote and access to political power.

In the meantime- political disempowerment means social and economic inferiority. Why? Because whites didn't want to share buses, schools and other public servants with Blacks. Police repression (such as the DA in this case) or Jim Crow or the lynchings, were all means to keep Blacks repressed by dominant white society. Which is even better if you're rich and white, because this way you can keep poor whites and poor blacks against each other-

Divide and conquer.

And it was the Court, acting as the guardian of the Constitution, that pushed that when politically it was very difficult to do. Congress may allow majorities to rule, but the Court protects the interests of the individual and the minority.

Affirmative Action was designed to address the consequence of 100 years of doing little to change the relationship between races and overcome that political disempowerment and economic distribution that had favored whites over blacks.

And why? Because you have peaceful Martin Luther King campaigning for Civil Rights (and gets assassinated for it) and then you have the Panthers and other less peaceful groups who were willing to use violence to further their rights. Given that choice- ethnic violence or ethnic compromise- the decision to go with compromise was the right one.

But what about worker rights? Or the rights of the poor? You ask why the union movement never picked up.

Short answer- the US is predominantly a rural and agricultural country. Yes we have big cities, but the days of manufacturing were fairly short-lived (the industrial revolution through the 1960s and since then we've been moving to services). Furthermore manufacturing was concentrated in various regions that were geographically seperate. Small farmers, in contrast, work their land with their hands- these are not folks that will not sympathize with an ideology that promises to take away their meager property.

In Europe you have a highly urbanized population and you had union workers who were able to become politicized. In Europe, the far left is communism and socialism is more of a moderate response. But in the US you have very powerful rural classes and, until the last 20 years or so, lots of small farmers. Communism wouldn't have survived and Socialism was unpopular.

As they did everywhere, unions organized because capital owners exploited them. Constitutional Law prior to the New Deal has countless cases of labor abuse that are shocking even today.

Note that while the Unions were organizing, Blacks were also campaigning for equal rights- so you had already a divided lower class.

Similar currents in Europe are being felt in the US. Anarchism leads to the assassination of leaders in Europe and the US. But Communism becomes a real threat, and leads to two Red Scares. Many of the leading Free Speech cases on political speech begins with the government wrestling with how much freedom should they allow to Communist organizers.

But as communism becomes seen as a threat in the US- Russian Revolution, Red Scare, Rise of leftists during the Great Depression and then the Second Red Scare that occurs along with the development of the Cold War, communist leaders are becoming hugely unpopular and then purged.

(If you read Dashell Hammett's Red Harvest, you see a bit of the politics of small towns and the small communist/union movement- and what happens).

With the end of the communist leadership of unions, than another power fills the vacuum of union leadership. Sometimes that was organized crime.

But the long story short- unions were never popular in the US because, I suspect, small farmers and rural America didn't see the purpose.

As for whose court is better. Generally, I am against courts where the judges get elected as the court's job is to interpret the law, not play to public opinion. WHich is the better system? In the US some jurisdictions allow for the election of judges. In others (the federal system) the judge has to be appointed and reviewed.

What I see of the civil system is that the courts are more the agent of the state- the appliers of what the legislatures decree. In the US, the courts do that too, but they have more flex to apply the law . But even here they must abide by precedent- so the courts are inherently conservative institutions.

Whether this allows the institutions to be abused-
Institutions are created by social actors who engage in on-going conflicts over material gains. We can interpret those material gains broadly to include economic wealth and politial power. Institutions are the consequence of those battles, an occassionally, those compromises.

I read that with extreme pleasure... welsh, you're sure you're not an academic professor?

Seriously though, I don't think I can challenge you on any of the points, since it's an entirely different context - in Europe the struggle was that of classes (although I hate the term) not race.

I do disagree on the "agents of the state" concept, though. As an independent branch, judges are practically free of political influence. In Poland's case, pretty much the only political element in the process of being appointed a judge is the final step - acceptance by the president. Even then, it's only after being recommended by the State Judicial Council (it's a misleading name, though. It's an institution that administrates the courts, completely separate from the Parliament, Council of Ministers or other political entities).
 
DarkCorp said:
@Welsh

The democrats are first to scream "poverty=failure". I notice you bring up the case with blacks but you fail to mention all the other minorities that have overcome both poverty and racism. IE the Irish, Asians, Germans, Jews, etc, etc. The chinese in the past were no different than the blacks. Hell most chinese were considered worthless and expendable in the mines and on the railroads. The Jews were almost universally hated. The Irish were looked upon with great disdain. It goes on and on.
Ahahahaha.
This is a pretty stupid comparison. The context in which all of these groups came to the United States was very different from the context in which blacks came to the United States - as slaves. And this is not important because of some stupid guilt trip, but because of the cultural background and the situation that most blacks find themselves in because of that.

Yes, the Irish, the Germans, the Jews, the Asians etc were all looked down upon at some point. But they were never seen as simple slaves, they weren't segregated to the extent that blacks were up until several decades ago. Remember, blacks had a seperate legal status in a lot of situations. Do you realise how fucked up that is? Do you also realise that that still has effects in various forms today?

Note that all of those groups had a base culture they could fall back on. The Germans, the Jews, the Asians - they all had a solid group with traditions, but blacks came from all parts of Africa and had lived in slavery for generations.

DarkCorp said:
Again personal responsibility. What about all those families out there have way too many kids than they can economically support? Whatever happened to personal responsibility in regards to learning the language of a country when one immigrates? Why do I see Basura everywhere but no chinese characters or trash in german, etc, etc? Why do I always hear democrats talking about how important the black or hispanic votes are? What the fuck about the rest of the minorities in this country? Where the hell are the esl programs that teach in chinese or the native language of other minorities instead of just spanish? I know my elementary and highschool didn't have it.
This is another ridiculous argument.
For one, there simply are far fewer Chinese and Germans in the US.
Secondly, it often takes multiple generations for any wave of immigrants to learn the native language. Many Chinese will have spoken nothing but Chinese for two or more generations when they came to the US. The difference is very simple: the Chinese have been here for a far longer time, and are hence better integrated.

Learning a new language, especially when you're older, is difficult and very time-consuming. Ironically, most US natives don't speak very many foreign languages either.
DarkCorp said:
You bring up education. But whatabout all those dipfuck shit kids who refuse to learn? You know those dumbfucks that just have to talk or pass notes while the teacher is talking. Those same jackasses who have every opportunity to learn proper english among other subjects but yet continue to speak ebonics. I know the slaves were mistreated and were not properly educated. But fuck man, its been how long since then? Theres no fucking reason for ebonics when english is taught to everyone. Yes schools need funding but at the same time throwing money at a problem isn't going to make it go away. What about more teacher responisibility? Leanring needs to be made interesting and fun. Kids need to be gauged that they actually understand the material instead of relying on bullshit tests and homework. How else would you explain why most people can't remember shit they learned in highschool? How about a program that focuses on what subjects students are good at? Just because someone sucks at math doesn't mean he can't be a latent genius in another field.
And you think that the poorer districts have the same *quality* of teaching as the rest of the USA? Because that's the only context in which this piece of text would make very much sense.

You can quote freaknomics but I quote actual life experience.
Ie "You can quote verifiable sources, but I quote myself so I'm right!"
Whoops.
 
You win above this line.

welsh said:
You don't want to hear that Whites oppress Blacks? What? Like the DA in the case above? You mean the whole history of Jim Crow is fiction?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

We call it Jim Crow. But internationally it has another name- Apartheid.
Welsh, have I ever said that I don't want to hear whites oppress blacks? Welsh, you have insulted me three times. I don't want to hear bullshit. If a racist exists. They should be punished. I do not know how to make that any clearer. I don't believe that every conservative white is a racist. Anyone who does, is ignorant of conservatives.

You're argument- poor are poor because they don't know how to live. So I guess you're arguing tha the poor deserve to be poor because they're just stupid? And the entire conditions of their existence doesn't seem to matter? That your chances of climbing the social ladder are much harder if you're poor than rich?

You miss read me. They are unwilling to do what they need to. They don't deserve to be poor because they are stupid, because they were born poor, because they got laid off because their greedy rich employers got taxed. They do deserve help, and aid and education. They do not deserve it because they are black.

Social ladder? You mean make enough to buy fancy stuff to impress those around them? Thats the problem.

The wealthy live under their income or they loose their money and become poor or middle class. The majority of those who are rich, live as though they are middle class. The poor often try to live above their income. Racking in debt they can never get out of. To get out of poverty, you must save money. You can survive on what you allow yourself to have.

I work with people who make twice as much as I do and have two jobs and live paycheck to paycheck. I know people with no job, who pay rent, food, school, and luxury on money they get from donating plasma every month(here thats 300 dollars).

I live off 50 dollars every month because I put the rest of my money into school, taxes, and savings.

Every economics class I've taken has said the same thing. Don't get into debt.

Look up for me if you will who owe the most?

"They are given every opportunity to succeed?" Yeah.... with all the social spending that has been cut in the last 15 years, with an administration that won't give health care to poor kids.

I'm not hard core republican. I believe in socialized health care. By every opportunity I mean education. I've never been to the poor schools in Brooklyn or in DC, or anywhere on the east coast.

I went to the poorest school in the city of Salem Oregon. To tell the truth, it got funded pretty damn well. But the student just didn't care about learning. We had a dropout rate of something like 20 percent. then another 20 or so didn't get a diploma.

Then I moved to utah. I went to the richest public school. Utah schools are among the least funded schools in the nation, but the students were motivated, many of my fellow students are now going to BYU or UU or UVU or the hundreds of collages around utah.

If the culture isn't there, they wont succeed.

I'm just stating what I've observed and or heard in school lectures.

Every opportunity? Get your head out of your ass. Seriously, "Happy workers are well paid and treated fairly." What bullshit.

Mind looking up the most successful companies. Mind also looking up which companies have the happiest workers?

Look up business studies. Contact any number of successful businesses directly. Give them an email. Ask them how they keep morale up.

Anyone who actually owns a successful business will tell you morale is incredibly important.

If people are happy, they do good work. If they are unhappy, they don't do good work. They are sick more often, they are less inclined to do their work.

Down in real wages.
We need a minimum wage increases. That I totally agree with you on.

I might point out that even though "real wages" have been going down, consumer spending is skyrocketing. This started way back in the clintion years. Now its time for people to pay their debts and they just don't have the money. This causes recession. And bush gets the blame.

Now I just said he wasn't the cause. He did in my opinion make it much worse.

(ducks and covers for the impending, "You dumbshit bush did it all, its bush's fault, it can't possibly have started under the budget balancing president, it just can't. Cause he's a democrat and democrats are always right in everything they do."

I don't want to insult anyone by this, I just don't want to hear how it's all bush's fault. Because the evidence I've seen doesn't back that up, Only that he made it a hell of a lot worse.

I REALLLY DON"T LIKE BUSH BTW DON"T FUCKING SAY I DO!!! you'll piss me off again.)

Real wages have gone down over 30 years. That's why we're talking about social class and why the workers are so pissed off, and why W and the Republicans are so unpopular.

Thats why they got elected repeatedly. Your evangelicals.... are around twenty three percent of the republican vote. Republicans can't get elected without them. But Republicans won't win without everybody else also.

In truth, the US is close to 50 50 and is leaning democrat because of our glorious dipstick.

Don't blame me, I didn't vote in 2004. If I had, I would have voted for John Kerry.
 
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