Does Fallout...

[Tycell]

Does Fallout have too many guns?

I just watched Mad Max 2 (The Road Warrior) and I realized something like this, I know the subject has been approached before but still.

In F1 (and I quote) “Ammo grew on trees and fell from the sky”. Strangely guns were actually less common than the ammunition they used.

In F2 it started out great, at first you had no guns at all, the first gun you get is often the pipe rifle in Vic's place which is also cool because the pipe rifle is a load of rubbish and didn't break the atmosphere but as soon as you hit the Den again guns and bullets were abundant.

In F3 its more of the same. Right from the word go you have guns and bullets readily available to you and the best thing is if you run low the game gives you more! I am referring to dynamic re-supply type thing they have going on here. I have used mele weapons twice ever in F3. Once in the vault every time where you beat the crap out of the tunnel snakes and once when I found the ripper and decided to go on a bit of a wild on in Canterbury Commons. - Big gripe; you can't kill children!

I much prefer the idea of The Road Warrior, in that film there are about 4 shots fired, ever from Max's saw off shotgun and one of them is a dud! The rest of the weapons in the movie are either various stabbing, clubbing and slicing tools or crossbows.

Which do you think is more believable? I don't know exactly how abundant guns really are in the USA (TV would have us believe that every man and his dog packs a magnum). What do you guys think? If it really came down to it would there be guns everywhere or would it be more native style a la Road Warrior?

 

[patriot_41]

You know, that's just what I was thinking of recently. Making guns and ammo extremely rare (therefore prized) in Fallout Online would be exactly the thing to balance the game out. And low HP. I'm thinking 10 hp with approx 2 hp/lvl progression, so a gun could make all the difference. Thus a 310 hp Deathclaw would really mess up a serious ammount of unarmed people and would definately prove a challenge to a single character. Still, it could, in theory, be killed by a single player, thus making the Vault Dweller more of a legend.

 

[Tycell]

Hmm... a level 34 death claw?

Not sure about that, but making guns and more importantly functional ammunition prized is deffinatly a yes.

The thing is now though that Fallout has had over 3 major releases all prodominantly featuring guns readily avalible. No company I know of will have the balls to suddenly change the setting that much and take that much of a risk even if every player in the world is screaming at them about how much better it would be.

Another thing I had considered is a modified weapon and armour system. It always bugged me that guns are split into Small, Big and Energy. Surley if you can fire a snipers rifle with top proficiency you could use say a laser pistol easyily too? Its still a gun isnt it? Its not like you aim and pull the trigger any differently, is it?

I was thinking somthing like;

- Held: Weapons such as clubs, knifes, axes, steel bars, staffs, pikes etc.

- Cast: Weapons such as thrown spears, grenades, crossbows, throwing stars, harpoon guns etc.

- Fired: Pistols, Rifles, Machine guns, rocket launchers etc.

Also with armour, rather than set peices of armour like most RPGs have classed armour.

For example a sack sewn into a hood could be a "class 1 helmet". This way you can have many varients of gear all having similar damage protection. Like raider gear. One helmet is going to be different from the next. A power armour helmet could be "class 10 helmet". In this manner it brings it a bit closer to life more variation while still keeping the basic numbers set to allow for easy game mechanics.

One thing that really annoys me in Fallout 3 is the 'condition' of the weapons. Why would a knife loose condition? Yes it might go blunt but you could still use it! The same applies to fire arms or any weapon. Any gun which breaks every time after being fired 50 times and needs to be repaired every time is a seriously crap weapon. I mean your using 2 shoddy rifles to make 1 half decent one which totally consumes the other its stupid.

 

[patriot_41]

I have not, and will not, play Fallout 3. But, since we're just discussing general changes, I'd say that you shouldn't raise skills manually. After you've set up your general character, you should raise them by using them. If you use small guns, you become proficient. You sill could be taught, but none of that using of spears for 40 levels, while raising energy guns crap . . .
And I think that using special skills should be mini-game-ish . . . like a simplified programming language for your science skill, and more points in that skill would give you some hints . . . it's better than rolling dice, since it's possible to just . . . you know, guess . . .
I don't know . . .

 

[Tycell]

Its a nice idea but not my sort of thing. I dont like the oblivion style of doing things. Get hammered by three goblins for half an hour to raise your heavy armour skill - its BS IMO.

I much prefer the Fallout way of manual skill adjusts. Yeah its not quite so realisitc but its much more fun - and thats what a games for. Fun, not realism.

 

[lugaru]

I agree about too many guns, so I was a little freaked when in Fallout 3 all the mods I saw where more guns. I've been begging for a bow and arrow or crossbow and I've played some pretty successful melee characters who use machetes and spears (mods). In old Fallout 1 - 2 I usually had a hard time with melee characters, especially martial arts. In tactics it was better since you could lay down cover fire while your melee dude snuck in.

Then again I am the opposite of a gun nut, I can barely tell two firearms appart beyond what I have learned in video games. Other people get really happy talking about guns and ammo, so I guess they dont mind the miniguns.

edit: on a detailed skill system I would love to see each weapon use 2 stats, so for example a pistol would require small arms and guns while a laser pistol would be guns and science. A knife would be small and melee while a spear would be big and melee. Missle launcher would be big and explosives while grenades would be thrown and explosives. Say every 10% adds 5% to the damage, a character with 50 science and 50 in guns could wield a laser rifle with +50% damage (+25 and +25). That is off the top of my head of course, things would have to be balanced and planned for real.

 

[Tycell]

I considered a system such as that. However I came to the conclusion that it was over complicated. Also it contradicts some of what I was trying to get acrross in the first post.

Why, if you can fire a pistol (gun + small) are you so much worse with a laser pistol? (Gun + energy). A laser pistol is still just a pistol, yeah in reality it would different to use (I imagine no kick, no dip etc) but its a game. Why make it more complicated than it needs to be?

 

[patriot_41]

Not Oblivion style, I was thinking more along the lines of Dungeon Siege 1. The overly simple system there could have made for excellent role-playing, if anyone had actually thought about implementing that. RPG =\= Shitloads of stat sheets. Most PnP RPG gamemasters actually hide the stats. It's irrelevant what the system is, it's the gameplay options you are provided with.

 

[Tycell]

Not Oblivion style, I was thinking more along the lines of Dungeon Siege 1. The overly simple system there could have made for excellent role-playing, if anyone had actually thought about implementing that. RPG =\= Shitloads of stat sheets. Most PnP RPG gamemasters actually hide the stats. It's irrelevant what the system is, it's the gameplay options you are provided with.

Yes true but you still have to understand the system to a certain extent. And why not have it nice and simple? Simple is easier for all parties concerned.

 

[SuAside]

guns are plentiful, especially in the continental US.

as for ammo? as said in Fallout, ammo is quite easy to make if you know what you're doing. problem is that the primers would be a lot more unstable than commercial stuff today, that the damage would be less to having a less engineered bullet and that the power of the ammo would likely be far less.

'old' commercial ammo would be more reliable (if stored properly) and safer. thus heavily sought after.

but to say you'd go back to sticks & stones? no, not quite. maybe you'd prefer to hunt with a crossbow for lunch because it's free, but shooting at people? heh, you don't skimp on that.

 

[lugaru]

That is why I love a system that only uses perks and skills. Basically if you are good at something, it is listed, otherwise why bother.

My own rpg (versus) works that way, so in a versus version of fallout (which I have never made unfortunately) you would purchase skills like Small Guns, Small Guns Expert and Small Guns Master. If you dont pay to get Science then you simply cannot do science related activities unless they are super basic, in which case you have no bonus. Likewise you could use a gun without Small Guns as a skill but you would suck compared to the guy next to you who knows what he is doing. That way instead of having a dozen stats with a number next to each, you just have a word per each thing you are good at.

 

[cronicler]

On Primers: If you have the access to materials it is not extremely hard to manufacture primers from ammonium nitrate (your basic semi-organic based farming fertilizer that is)
Sure it generates too much dirt compared to the modern stuff but it is not that hard.

Also if you have access to a working lathe and some decent pre war piping of needed calibers crafting firearms up to semi-automatic smoothbore rifles is possible. (Rifling is a bitch though. Without dedicated equipment rifling takes either too much time to make it properly or goes kaputt in about 20 to 50 shots. Using a slow lathe/brush head to make the grooves softens the barrel and without dedicated tools you cant harden it properly. so each shot erodes the rifling a lot)

The hardest part of crafting a gun in post apocalyptic era would be the springs I guess. High Tensile durable springs are needed even if you are using a pizo-electric crystal (thunder crystals like the ones found in common plastic lighters) based firing mechanism.

In a nutshell, if you know how to craft it, then guns and ammo are not hard to produce. (Ancient Roman artisans could have produced guns if they had the tech. It just took us about 2000+ years to move from researching fire to controlled combustables you know )

 

[Tycell]

All valid points. But think about this seriouslynow. And I would like a few replies to this with the following list;

1: Do you personally at this very moment (without researching) have the skills, confidence in yourself and ability to manufacture a gun and bullets?

2: Where could you walk to right now to get the resources you would need?

3: Where could you get the tools to use? Could you make your own tools?

4: Pulling all of this together, after the bombs, is it still possible? (would X resource survive the fall?)

I live in England see, so have very little actual hands on knowledge of fire arms. How they work etc.

If I were to try and make a gun (with a little research, and from scratch) i could probably pull together a blunderbuss type contraption. Very unstable, not accurate etc. If I were to try and craft a crossbow type weapon however I could probably quite easily pull that off. Metal tipped bolts perhaps and all.

My point is, building a gun here and now - no problem. Google + ebay + a few late nights, right?

Building a gun after the bombs?

 

[patriot_41]

Building a gun after the bombs?

With computers to store all the knowledge you might need inside your vault? And people around with nothing better to do than tinker rifles and such? Probably yes.

I think I could manage to do a pipe rifle and move on to the revolver. I have some gun literature, so if I needed I could check out the basics and use whatever materials I have around even after Google is no more around. I would stick to my composite bow, though. If civilization crumbles, I'm still armed. Arrows are relatively easy to make.

 

[Tycell]

Arrows are relatively easy to make.

And you can pull them out after and re use them.

 

[patriot_41]

Arrows are relatively easy to make.

And you can pull them out after and re use them.

Cannot really kill a bigger animal with them, though. And are definitely not intimidating. But provided, that we have over 500,000 AK-47's in army barracks and we are actually still producing them, with gun stores at every few steps, I could easily obtain a gun around here after a bomb fell, if I was among the first looters. I've memorized the locations of at least 12 gun shops, just in case

 

[Tycell]

Ah but I live in the UK. There is only 1 gun shop I know of and it only stocks shotguns and a few rifle. Also its about over an hours drive from me. Guns are rare as rocking horse shit over here. Obviously there are millitary bases and alike but when the bombs fall where are they going to fall? Thats right ;P

I have spent the last hour or so riding google looking for how to make guns and where to buy air rifles and guns shops and alike near me. Quite some interetsing stuff.

Still got no idea how to make a gun short of using the proper tools. Anyone care to enlighten?

 

[x'il]

By wild guessing here, i'd say there are trillions of firearms in the world, and according to the story of fallout about a few thousand survivors, so even if a lot of those firearms get destroyed by nuclear blasts or decay with time there would still be a billion of them around...also, the Road Warrior takes place in a relatively small area compared to all the traveling done in fallout, and the more the travels the greater the chances of bumping into a few of those billion firearms left, in fallout you have merchant caravans traveling to places, you have high tech vault dweller survivors, etc, while in the road warrior there's only, desert, roads, raiders, and a few people clinging to a fuel supply...how about all the vehicles and the fuel for them seen in the road warrior?, there's no such thing in fallout, the highwaymen in fallout is fusion powered, in a post-apoc setting fuel would be much much more dificult to find and acquire than firearms....perhaps the raiders in the road warrior traded their gunsfor fuel? ...

Also, in gameplay terms, more guns means more quests, bigger game, more fun...think about it: the reward for many quests in an rpg game are usable items (or xp plus usable items, or somesuch), having 5 guns in a game would mean a lot less usable items obtainable, a lot less sense of achivement you get when obtaining a new usable item, therefore a lot more xp levels (since you would probably only gain xp or stats boosts for completing quests) or a lot less quests and smaller game. Plus, variation is also fun, even if a gun has absolutely the same stats and uses the same firing animation as the next one in game, the mere inventory picture and description add a little refreshment...can you imagine going through a game as big as fallout 2 with only 6 guns to use in the entire game?, it would be very annoying IMO

Personally i enjoy the skill and stats sheet in the fallouts much more than any other pcrpg i've ever played, if it were for me, the character stats screen would be even more complex and contain 3 times the skills, statistics, and configuration options...

 

[Josan12]

I agree that there are way too many guns in FO. That was a real missed oppurtunity to make the game much better, IMO. If i ever figure out how to do it i might make a mod that reduces ALL ammo available in the game by around 95%. The final result would be your average highwayman gets about 2-4 shots before he has to switch to melee, and the player has to use ammo VERY sparingly.

I think it'd be more fun than a bag of ferrets, but i know many FO players wouldn't agree ....

 

[Ausdoerrt]

I have not, and will not, play Fallout 3. But, since we're just discussing general changes, I'd say that you shouldn't raise skills manually. After you've set up your general character, you should raise them by using them. If you use small guns, you become proficient. You sill could be taught, but none of that using of spears for 40 levels, while raising energy guns crap . . .
And I think that using special skills should be mini-game-ish . . . like a simplified programming language for your science skill, and more points in that skill would give you some hints . . . it's better than rolling dice, since it's possible to just . . . you know, guess . . .
I don't know . . .

You do realize that most of what you listed has been done in Oblivion and FO3, and quite crappily at that?

The RPGs that raise stats based on usage that I can name are usually a pretty crappy idea - FFII, DS, most MMOs. It might be good in theory, but turns the game into even more of a horrible grindfest.