Does Fallout...

[cronicler]

Tycell: Since you are in Urban parts of England I can understand how unfamiliar you are with firearms.

1. At this moment without any research I personally also can't put together anything more complicated than a rifle whose complexity is between a Blunderbuss and Pipe rifle. However with some research (mostly on the spring actions) I believe I can craft a decent single-shot smooth bore/light rifled rifle.

2. Resources you need to craft a gun can be found everywhere. Basically you just need metal pipes and some springs.

3: You need tools to cut and drill the metal pipes and put together the mechanisms. Any car body shop, metalworker, repair shop, (Language breakdown: What does a guy who repairs water pipes is called?) can yield enough tools to start your own production line.

Also do not forget the junkyards. you can find lots of refined materials from such places for your resource needs

4: As I said the most critical part of crafting a modern gun is the small high tensile springs. These are generally stainless steel springs and stainless steel is a bitch to make. So you would be dependent on scavenging springs. Then again your cheap office chairs and car seats contain 25+ springs each so it is not entirely impossible


Edit: Bows and Crossbows:
Modern crossbows do pack enough force to put down a man sized target if you can hit it in the chest area.
Even the modern pulley bows do not pack enough punch to put down a man sized (medium size) target reliably with 1 shot.

Bows and Crossbows are good weapons. However they require either too much time to train (Bows) or modern grade materials (Modern Crossbows).

Compared to the most basic rifle, both weapons are extremely slow to re-fire and unwieldy. Sure their re-usability is good for hunting but if the prey is capable of fighting back, you will need some backup.

On a semi related note, most of the wilderness survival discussions I have seen on the net come to the conclusion that a light reliable rifle like a .22 caliber to hunt your food (light and plentiful ammo. enough punch to hunt small sized animals) and a medium to heavy caliber backup sidearm (preferably revolver class as they need less maintenance than automatics) for bad suprises like wild boar or human animals. Then again this scheme is for wilderness survival, not assaulting power armoured troops

Edit 2: There are more than a few Magazines out there that you can check for these issues. Just google or library hunt for titles like "Rifle Magazine" "Handloader's Magazine" or "Hunter" Magazine. (And I kid you not about these names )

 

[x'il]

(...) If i ever figure out how to do it i might make a mod that reduces ALL ammo available in the game by around 95%(...)

I think one or some of the weapon mods have tried this (considerably reducing the amount of ammo in the game), and there's also the Survivor mod, which i don't know if it reduces the amount of ammo, but it tries to make the game more challenging...

 

[patriot_41]

I have not, and will not, play Fallout 3. But, since we're just discussing general changes, I'd say that you shouldn't raise skills manually. After you've set up your general character, you should raise them by using them. If you use small guns, you become proficient. You sill could be taught, but none of that using of spears for 40 levels, while raising energy guns crap . . .
And I think that using special skills should be mini-game-ish . . . like a simplified programming language for your science skill, and more points in that skill would give you some hints . . . it's better than rolling dice, since it's possible to just . . . you know, guess . . .
I don't know . . .

You do realize that most of what you listed has been done in Oblivion and FO3, and quite crappily at that?

The RPGs that raise stats based on usage that I can name are usually a pretty crappy idea - FFII, DS, most MMOs. It might be good in theory, but turns the game into even more of a horrible grindfest.

Bethesda never even tried to explore the roleplaying capabilities of its titles. And the scaling down of the world around you is a crappy idea. Just cause they failed doesn't mean it can't be done. Stats in rpg were originally to put some boundaries on what can and cannot be done, and the DM is now a computer. There is no limit to the Roleplaying that could occur, provided that the developer concentrates on allowing the player to set traps and try to avoid smart-written AI and stuff, You don't need a skill check for opening a f*kin door, so no point in having stats about door opening skill. I'm having similar thoughts about the lockpick skill. If you have tools you will, sooner or later open it. If you have a gun or a crowbar, you will open it. I'm not saying, that there shouldn't be an underlying system, it just should be simplified and shouldn't be visible to you. Like in real life.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

^ But then, under that definition, STALKER is a better RPG than, say, Fallout 2 or BG.

 

[patriot_41]

Fallout 2 is the best cRPG.
Baldur's Gate 2 is more like a Dungeon Crawl with the DnD system attached. Unkillable people, obligatory quests . . . especially since I played it after Fallout. Most of the times you have only one way to solve a quest.
I haven't played STALKER, so I couldn't say.

I think I may have been misunderstood. Imagine it like playing fallout without having to open the Character menu at levelling up. That wouldn't prevent you from experiencing the game, and your stats would still affect the gameplay if they are acquired automatically. This is why you have a computer - to do the calculations for you. Imagine having to roll each and every single bullet from the Minigun burst and calculate its outcome. That would be a tedious chore, to say the least. It is done automatically, so you could concentrate on other things.
So, i f the Roleplaying mechanics are taken in consideration, that is to say at least 5 ways to solve a quest. And in 'ways' I mean 'approaches' (Talk, sneak, fight, lure, ignore, get someone else to do it etc.) the system is hardly that relevant.
As far as I've heard, there were different PnP RPG groups actually playing in the Van Buren setting, so that the devs could have e wider range of options to implement in quest solving.
Bottom line: Roleplay is more important. If the system takes care of itself, you cannot build a poorly balanced character out of stupidity and then further destroy him by putting points in stupid skills. I mean, you could, but it would require serious dedication.

 

[Tycell]

Also, in gameplay terms, more guns means more quests, bigger game, more fun...think about it: the reward for many quests in an rpg game are usable items (or xp plus usable items, or somesuch), having 5 guns in a game would mean a lot less usable items obtainable, a lot less sense of achivement you get when obtaining a new usable item, therefore a lot more xp levels (since you would probably only gain xp or stats boosts for completing quests) or a lot less quests and smaller game. Plus, variation is also fun, even if a gun has absolutely the same stats and uses the same firing animation as the next one in game, the mere inventory picture and description add a little refreshment...can you imagine going through a game as big as fallout 2 with only 6 guns to use in the entire game?, it would be very annoying IMO

Your assuming all decent weapons have to be guns. Also, what I am suggesting is not just 6 guns through the game. Imagine fallout with say 100 weapons, but when only 30 of them were guns and 10 of those guns were unique 'named' weapons and the other 20 range from very rare to a few knocking about. “Usable items” can include all sorts of things, I'm not saying get rid of all guns, just have more non gun weapons than guns themselves.

Edit: Bows and Crossbows:
Modern crossbows do pack enough force to put down a man sized target if you can hit it in the chest area.
Even the modern pulley bows do not pack enough punch to put down a man sized (medium size) target reliably with 1 shot.

Bows and Crossbows are good weapons. However they require either too much time to train (Bows) or modern grade materials (Modern Crossbows).

Compared to the most basic rifle, both weapons are extremely slow to re-fire and unwieldy. Sure their re-usability is good for hunting but if the prey is capable of fighting back, you will need some backup.

I see your point, but at the same time I don't think it would be hard to modify or even make bows and crossbows that are deadly. In medieval times the English longbow was the pinnacle of technology and could put an arrow straight through a man at very long range. Yes bows would take time to train with but then have the waste land inhabitants got anything better to do? Not like their favorite soap opera is on the box tonight.

Also, you missed out1 thing; Ammunition. Could you make bullets?

I think I may have been misunderstood. Imagine it like playing fallout without having to open the Character menu at levelling up. That wouldn't prevent you from experiencing the game, and your stats would still affect the gameplay if they are acquired automatically. This is why you have a computer - to do the calculations for you.

Interesting idea, but TBH I think if I couldn't check my characters 'stats' I would find it very frustrating. Its nice to have a page you can look at where all the info you need is pulled together – and I also prefer choosing which skills to upgrade rather than the Morrowind way of doing things.

Also; Whoever it was who mentioned being able to break open a door with a jerry bar – Yes.

One thing I loved about F2 which didn't make it to F3 was that you could break through doors. IRL if you have the will power and say a sledge hammer, Axe or large blunt object you are going to be able to break 90% of doors down. The trouble would start once you came up against re-enforced doors or blast doors. Obviously you aren't going to pry a Vault Door open with a crowbar but at the same time most of the shack doors in the fallout world could easily be put through with a well placed kick. And lets not forget your the guy potentially running around with a missile launcher and an ample supply of explosives.

 

[x'il]

(...)I think I may have been misunderstood. Imagine it like playing fallout without having to open the Character menu at levelling up. That wouldn't prevent you from experiencing the game, and your stats would still affect the gameplay if they are acquired automatically(...)

Automatic acquisition of stats, that is; skill increases through use, would make for annoying grindfests like someone here already pointed out...It can be used as an extra but it cannot be the main or only form of levelling up without inevitably turning into the above

Bottom line: Roleplay is more important. If the system takes care of itself, you cannot build a poorly balanced character out of stupidity and then further destroy him by putting points in stupid skills. I mean, you could, but it would require serious dedication.

This is only due to a lack of quests and proper balance in the use of all skills offered to the player, i mean, if the game was properly balanced and all skills would have a serious, continuous use throughout the entire game, then no skill would be stupid or useless and any point spent on any skill would not destroy the character but as it should, further enhance him.

Furthermore, there ARE real-life useless or completely unappreciated skills...

About "reality" in games two things:

first, it's way overrated and widely misunderstood in my opinion; there's no "standard" for it and it all comes down to the varying tastes of players: some people might like as a curiosity a game that gives you final start-whole-game-from the beggining-kind of death, but i'm sure that such "realism" would make for a truly annoying game for the mayority or all players...some people like one-hit-kills kind of games, others don't, etc, etc...

second, why bother with such unnecessary "realism" that would bring more annoyance and trouble than they are worth when anything that slightly approaches any level of true realism is just not possible? why? because games are not and cannot offer the same amount of possibilities that real life can without several truly AI sentient beings administering the game, in which case i don't even know what that "game" would be like.

(...)Imagine fallout with say 100 weapons, but when only 30 of them were guns and 10 of those guns were unique 'named' weapons and the other 20 range from very rare to a few knocking about(...)

OK, i see what you mean, and i agree, though i'd prefer slightly different numbers (i'm assuming that the other 70 weapons in your example would be melee weapons, that's why i'd prefer slightly different numbers...so many melee weapons and the probable constant use you would have to give them would remind me a little too much of almost every other dwarf, elven, fantasy RPG)

 

[nemo00]

First of all as other people pointed out, ammo is not that hard to make, and second you seem to forget the concept of trade. I mean there are enough places with enough technology to make decent regular ammo like NCR, Vault city, BOS, San Fran, even New Reno(they did make decent bullets in the wild west for ex. so you don't need to be a rocket scientist) and then sell it . Here you could object that yeah but wouldn't they keep it for themselves, or wouldn't it be expensive, well news flash, it was darn expensive, for the first quarter of the game I couldn't afford buying shotgun shells or FMJ, I had to salvage it from the raiders I killed, and yeah so could they (it's not like they had to much of it either one load and then it all went down with fists and knifes, and spears). Usually the reward you got was 200 dollars (not counting NCR), and even from the larger rewards you couldn't by too much ammo, not to speak about the more advanced stuff (fusion cells costing above 10000 and your average wasteland Joe having on him only a couple of bucks, ok I admit micro fusion cells were always tough to explain, but then it is fiction, maybe they did figure out how to can sun). The only problem I might have had is the unusual quantity of working prewar guns that everybody had, like combat shotguns or SMGs, but heck even those could have come from abandoned army deposits, or could have been refurbished I mean I’ve seen some old muskets in perfect working condition. And they made the game fun. People the game might have been inspired by Mad Max, but it is not Mad Max, I haven’t seen any power armor in it (except maybe something like a power armor helmet on the big dude in Thunderdome), and even in the first Mad Max they didn’t have a shortage of ammo. If you whan't to make fallout hard all you have to do is disable the steal skill, or make it work like in Baldur's Gate, and you'l suddenly feel how pretiouse ammo is .

Now for something of topic, do not slander Baldur’s Gate which was an amazing RPG, only it was more story driven than Fallout (but not so much as Planescape) and there to you had multiple ways to solve quests, although true not as many as in fallout. And what unkillable NPC you talk about, you could kill anybody you want, even commoners and theoretically still complete the game (insanely hard though, especially the second one)

 

[lugaru]

Again I think the argument of too much firepower vs too little is very much a thing of taste. In a world with functioning robots it would not be impossible to set up an assembly line that spits out ammo all day long.

But there is the "artistic nonsensical" players as well, which is a little bit more the camp I fall into. I'm the type of guy who needs 3 guesses to tell you what caliber a .45 shoots, so I would rather see weapons that have a symbolic charge like six shooters, crossbows, sawed off shotguns, machetes... stuff where you think "this is cool" as opposed to "this can plug a target with 20 armor piercing bullets per second!".

A great example is an e-mail I got from a friend who wants to get into modding... he wants to make rat skin coats (hundreds of rat pelts sewen together) and a mace that is basically a toaster on a chain. His vision of the apocalipse is not "the world ended but guys in power armor with gauss gatling guns rule" so much as it is "the world has ended and people are now eating rats and throwing rocks at each other". Fallout 1, 2 and 3 allows that sort of play but obviosly does not encourage it, even if you start in a tribal village (2) you will probably be wearing power armor and wielding a weapon that belongs on a tank by the end.

 

[patriot_41]

I love Baldur's Gate. It's just nowhere near my love to Fallout. Which is strange, because I started watching out for Science Fiction and PA settings because of Fallout. Before that it was only "pixies, magic and all that stuff" (Meaning warriors and dragons, in general).

I've seriously given my idea long consideration and I've come to a conclusion, that it gives all kinds of players the freedom to do what they like. You can grind as much as you want, but a well placed ambush with people, who've taken care to understand the system, however easy it may be, will probably destroy you. Through roleplaying - an ambush which includes well profiled characters on strategic points behind custom made barricades (yes, in a perfect game you would be able to interact with pretty much anything. My wish is to see more games implement the usage of random objects. When you break a table, it's three planks and four wooden staves, each plank with 1-6 damage(str bonuses not included) and the spiked table chair 1-8 etc...) and a good balance between weapons and equipment (weight is usually only a stat, barely a real roleplaying factor). and so on.

I got lost in my explanation.

 

[Tycell]

OK, i see what you mean, and i agree, though i'd prefer slightly different numbers (i'm assuming that the other 70 weapons in your example would be melee weapons, that's why i'd prefer slightly different numbers...so many melee weapons and the probable constant use you would have to give them would remind me a little too much of almost every other dwarf, elven, fantasy RPG)

No, the other 70 weapons would not be just melee weapons. As I sait before you could have 'Held' (melee), Cast (bows, thrown stuff) and fired.

So between the other 70 you would see the more common weapons.

On the savage brute types, like most raiders you could find; clubs, spears, swords, mace, glove with spikes, war hammer etc.

And for the more organised or advanced people and factions you would find Bow and arrows, Crossbows, Pikes, harpoon guns and maybe the odd gun (air rifles + bodged guns?).

Then for the really nasty people, the ones who are at the top of the food chain, you find guns are more predominant but even then whos to say they rely on guns alone? One guy could have a sawn off with a few rounds as backup to his metal armour and battle axe.

I am thinking allong the lines of MM3 Beyond Thunder Dome. In that there are a few people who have rifles, shotguns etc. But most people just have junk or the odd salvaged together crossbow.

I didnt mean 30 guns and the rest get sharpe sticks.

Anyway, the numbers I used were off the top of my head, not actually trying to be accurate here but I figured 100 weapons was a nice number.



So whats the general consensus here? Do people love the guns or would like to see things get more native?

 

[SuAside]

yes, guns are too plentiful, but removing a fuckton wouldn't make it better much. anyhow, it's hard to balance something like that.


the crafting question:
yes, i do have the literature or knowledge required to craft crude firearms and bullets.

making things like a cast bullet or a musket is ridiculously easy.

i'm not sure i could make centerfire primers though, but i do know people who can.

Modern crossbows do pack enough force to put down a man sized target if you can hit it in the chest area.

there's not a single bullet on earth that can guarantee you the same.

saying crossbows can is somewhat over the top.

but yes, crossbows are more effective than bows and they're even a lot easier to make!

 

[lugaru]

So whats the general consensus here? Do people love the guns or would like to see things get more native?

I love it Native and I've been doing what I can to bring Tribals to Fallout 3 (I did a skin texture, downloaded spears and machetes and axes). But like I mentioned before, I consider myself a minority, lots of people love guns. Ideally the game supports both, one plug in gives you 100 guns while the other makes guns extremely rare and low tech.

Going back to role playing territory in my own games all weapons have attributes such as heavy, long, cruel, sharp, armor piercing, light, etc.

Heavy is hard to block, so if you put your sword in the way of a war hammer you will probably fail in blocking it.
Long can be used to steal the initiative from someone.
Balanced means it can be thrown.
Armor Piercing ignores 1 point of armor.
Precise helps you choose where you hit.
Etc.

So an axe, a spear and a short sword can all do 4 damage but they have different "attributes" making them more dangerous. That gives players the ability to use "the right tool for the right job".

 

[Crni Vuk]

Fallout 2 is the best cRPG.
Baldur's Gate 2 is more like a Dungeon Crawl with the DnD system attached. Unkillable people, obligatory quests . . . especially since I played it after Fallout. Most of the times you have only one way to solve a quest.
I haven't played STALKER, so I couldn't say.

Well to say just that, STALKER isnt a RPG.

...
but yes, crossbows are more effective than bows and they're even a lot easier to make!

Which is even proved alone by the fact that it was seen by most knights as a weapon without "honor". Cause with a crossbow even a usual peasant with lidle training (compared to the use of a usual bow), could kill a well trained knight in armor that took maybe a whole life for him to master his weapons. A long bow was compared to a cross bow the better weapon, but only in the hands of a very well trained user, which is expensive and not easy to achieve.

 

[cronicler]

Actually if he would stop swearing I would direct you to DammitBoy Ty. He is... he can be considered as a true American gun nut. Sure he is more into trading them than hoarding them but i believe his arsenal had gone over 50 riffles at some points.

Anyway, in a country that has militia system, local army system and a federal army; there are lots of guns. (Just to compare it, US has one of the largest active infantry armies (The federal/regular army that is). For each trooper there are 2 sets of gear stored stateside and 1 set of gear he has with him on overseas deployment. Then for every 1 regular army member there are more than 3 National guardsman and more than 9 militiaman. all of these guys have a standard set of weapons. Then you can add the civilian guns in the hands of civilians like shotguns, hunting rifles, car 15s, penis extenders (elephant rifles, unpractical calibers like casull, 4 gauge... )
Also you need to factor in the huge number of cheap guns like cheap automatics (ganger pieces), old Aks, Chinese rifles...

Yes there are a lot of guns in America. I was frankly suprised that they didn't include more Army equipment in the game at the time. If you go over the firearm list in the game you will notice that nearly all the guns are those avalable civilian market (or high end sci-fi ones )

 

[patriot_41]

I really do think, that guns should be rare, nonetheless. Sure, a guy with good melee skills could survive vs. a gun in theory. In a largely inhabited setting tho, guns should be like the Unique and Set items in Diablo (even rarer) and ammo could be like bottle caps - money in its own right. I was lucky enough to obtain an H&K CAWS on my way to Klamath in my first FO2 playthrough and the difference between it and all my melee skills was amazing. It's like finding a chainsaw in a medieval village riot setting. That would really make you appreciate your weapon and really do want to PK someone for his gun and still have a hard time at it.

 

[x'il]

While i agree with you, Tycell, that it would be nice to have more customized melee and junk weapons such as bloody rusty machetes, broken beer bottles, toasters attached to the end of chains, wooden table legs with a nail through it, etc, and would even accept that a reduction of in game ammo and firearms could make for the better atmosphere and more challenging game experience, i don't think that the fallout setting should be in any way equated with that of the Mad Max movies, they are different settings as i explained in one of my previous posts in this thread, i can easily remember, for example, a few post-apoc movies that had plenty of guns in them, such as the postman and resident evil extinction...

 

[lugaru]

I dont know if there are any fans of Six String Samurai here but guns where almost non existant in that movie. Then again the budget was almost non existant either... lots of fun though.

 

[Josan12]

About "reality" in games two things:

first, it's way overrated and widely misunderstood in my opinion; there's no "standard" for it and it all comes down to the varying tastes of players: some people might like as a curiosity a game that gives you final start-whole-game-from the beggining-kind of death, but i'm sure that such "realism" would make for a truly annoying game for the mayority or all players...some people like one-hit-kills kind of games, others don't, etc, etc...

second, why bother with such unnecessary "realism" that would bring more annoyance and trouble than they are worth when anything that slightly approaches any level of true realism is just not possible? why? because games are not and cannot offer the same amount of possibilities that real life can without several truly AI sentient beings administering the game, in which case i don't even know what that "game" would be like.

Well said, that man. Of course it is possible to make ammunition by hand. It's possible to make virtually anything in the PA world with enough time and determination. But this is not reality, people - this is a video game. And in a video game the most important question is is it fun? IMO, all other questions, including is it realistic? are secondary.

guns should be like the Unique and Set items in Diablo (even rarer) and ammo could be like bottle caps - money in its own right.

Ohhhhh baby, that is such a good idea. Well cared for firearms would probably become quite precious and tresured. Sure, there'd be a ton of rusty old guns around but they may not be reliable. And i LOVE the idea of using ammo as money. To me, that would be not only realistic, but FUN1!!

*dreams of remaking FO with ammo as money*

 

[UnidentifiedFlyingTard]

ammo as money? that is an awesome idea

I live next to my cousin and he has a huge fucking gun collection, he pretty much makes his own ammo, especially shot gun ammo, as long as you have the shells its relatively simple to re-use them.