Does getting dipped in FEV ever make ghouls?

Sduibek

Creator of Fallout Fixt
Moderator
Modder
1. Is there anything in the Fallout 1 or Fallout 2 documentation/dialog/lore to suggest that ghouls can come out of the FEV vats, or is it always resulting in a Super Mutant?

2. What about failures, is there any information to suggest some people just die from the process instead of being transformed.

It's been a while since I actually did a playthrough of the game so details like this have become fuzzy.

Thanks
 
1. No.

However, there is very rare mutantion to ghoul-like mutant, with only two known cases - Harold and Talius. (they aren't ghouls)

2. Yes

Zax:
When inoculated into an individual with significant
genetic damage, such as through radiation, it will cause
the body's systems to suffer massive overhauling, leading
to organ failure and death.

Instead of dying, they can alwyas transmutate into weird creatures. (for example, Centaurs if few people/pets are combined)
 
Haha, imagine if the player got dipped and then had to continue playing as a centaur. Good times.
 
Sduibek said:
1. Is there anything in the Fallout 1 or Fallout 2 documentation/dialog/lore to suggest that ghouls can come out of the FEV vats, or is it always resulting in a Super Mutant?

2. What about failures, is there any information to suggest some people just die from the process instead of being transformed.

It's been a while since I actually did a playthrough of the game so details like this have become fuzzy.

Thanks
Uh, hello? Yes! HAROLD! XD Granted, he's not "documentation", but the Master's and Maxon's Logs did detail as well as heavily imply that failures included high mortality rate. But the end result of FEV was never guaranteed to be a Super Mutant, just like IF you became a Super Mutant, you weren't guaranteed to maintain your mental faculties. Mutants like the Lieutenant were highly rare flukes, after all. The vast majority were rendered nearly retarded. And those were the SUCCESSES! Ghoul-like creatures, such as Talius and Harold, were the results of some of their failures. FEV produced highly unstable results, which is why the Master was constantly experimenting with it. You just don't hear a ton about those failures, because the Master would usually consume them shortly after their "birth".

A quick addendum, result mutations such as Harold and Talius are NOT to be confused with regular Ghouls, they are Ghoul-like Mutants. This was clarified by Black Isle around the time of the FO2 "controversy" over the source of Ghouls because of what appeared to be a discrepancy in facts between the titles.
 
The reason I ask is because next edition of my mod will probably include ability to keep playing after getting dipped (if you take those dialog options with either Lou or Master) ... so I need to know if there are situations in which player should die or become a ghoul instead of becoming a Super Mutant.
 
For game purposes, yes. Under certain circumstances, a person can become something that looks, acts, and functions like a ghoul when dipped in the FEV. Technically,, it's not a ghoul, in the same way that a tomato technically isn't a vegetable or The Matrix sequels weren't technically failures. The devs themselves used to give different answers to this question depending on who you asked, and I don't think they were all on the same page at the time the game's initial release. I think the "radiation = ghouls" thing became the operating canon with the release of the FO Bible, but don't quote me on that.

It's worth noting that the circumstances under which a dipped human becomes an "FEV ghoul" aren't exactly clear. Harold was a vault dweller, but from the sound of things he had been doing the caravan circuit for some time when he went on his expedition to the military base, and this was at a time when the wastes would have been far more contaminated with the NBC leavings of the war than at the start of the first game. On the other hand, Talius had presumably left Vault 13 fairly recently, considering the urgency of the mission, and probably hadn't had much time to accrue any genetic damage.

If you've soaked up a disconcerting amount of rads, you're probably more likely to just mutate into some kind of cancerous skeletal abomination and die than anything else.
 
Sduibek said:
The reason I ask is because next edition of my mod will probably include ability to keep playing after getting dipped (if you take those dialog options with either Lou or Master) ... so I need to know if there are situations in which player should die or become a ghoul instead of becoming a Super Mutant.
Players always should be intelligent super mutant, he's pure after all.
 
Yamu said:
It's worth noting that the circumstances under which a dipped human becomes an "FEV ghoul" aren't exactly clear. Harold was a vault dweller, but from the sound of things he had been doing the caravan circuit for some time when he went on his expedition to the military base, and this was at a time when the wastes would have been far more contaminated with the NBC leavings of the war than at the start of the first game. On the other hand, Talius had presumably left Vault 13 fairly recently, considering the urgency of the mission, and probably hadn't had much time to accrue any genetic damage.
Not to mention that Richard Moreau was ALSO a vault dweller whose exploits in the wastelands were, not unlike the Vault Dweller's, rather brief, so he should have been relatively "pure" as well. Of course, this is many decades before FO1's story begins, so the pervasive radiation would have been stronger, but it had also subsided enough to allow for civilization to eke out a new beginning by this time. The Hub was well established by the time Harold and the now-called Richard Grey set out to find the source of the mutants, and Grey was turned into The Master. His metamorphosis was the culmination of MANY factors, both the low rad count in his body, the time spent in the vats (he was floating in them for a full MONTH), and sheer spontaneous luck, not unlike the Lieutenant drawing the long straw and turning into an enlightened Super Mutant instead of a stupid one.

If you were to allow for the game to be continued even if you get dipped, that sounds like a massive endeavor. For one thing, you have to face the fact that your journey should NOT be the same as a mutant, because the people of the wastes were not receptive to them, at this point. It was many decades before places like Broken Hills were established that showed any form of open acceptance for non-pure humans, and the Necropolis was a refuge for those kinds of ostracized people. But as far as gameplay is concerned, the actual transformation, I imagine, should have a small basis on Luck. Just like the RP's EPA sex change has a chance to instantly kill the player, there should be a chance that the Vault Dweller getting dipped resulted in catastrophic, fatal failure, as well as the possibility that, like Talius, he/she became transformed into a Ghoul-like Mutant, instead of a Super Mutant.

But that option should really be taken with a heavy, heavy grain of salt, Sduibek. Remember, unlike what I believe you're trying to attain by "reimplementing" certain features into your mod, getting dipped would HEAVILY break the established canon of the game. No matter what could happen to the Vault Dweller, he/she would be rendered sterile, and canonically he/she went on to have children.
 
Languorous_Maiar said:
Players always should be intelligent super mutant, he's pure after all.

Not if you got considerable amounts of radiation. For example, if you were already in The Glow, you might as well turn stupid or ghoul-like, or even die. I'd rather let the "die" option only for those who have high amounts of radiation at the time of being dipped, or give it a chance only with luck under 3, so people wanting to choose that path don't keep losing the game constantly.

SnapSlav said:
Yamu said:
It's worth noting that the circumstances under which a dipped human becomes an "FEV ghoul" aren't exactly clear. Harold was a vault dweller, but from the sound of things he had been doing the caravan circuit for some time when he went on his expedition to the military base, and this was at a time when the wastes would have been far more contaminated with the NBC leavings of the war than at the start of the first game. On the other hand, Talius had presumably left Vault 13 fairly recently, considering the urgency of the mission, and probably hadn't had much time to accrue any genetic damage.
Not to mention that Richard Moreau was ALSO a vault dweller whose exploits in the wastelands were, not unlike the Vault Dweller's, rather brief, so he should have been relatively "pure" as well. Of course, this is many decades before FO1's story begins, so the pervasive radiation would have been stronger, but it had also subsided enough to allow for civilization to eke out a new beginning by this time. The Hub was well established by the time Harold and the now-called Richard Grey set out to find the source of the mutants, and Grey was turned into The Master. His metamorphosis was the culmination of MANY factors, both the low rad count in his body, the time spent in the vats (he was floating in them for a full MONTH), and sheer spontaneous luck, not unlike the Lieutenant drawing the long straw and turning into an enlightened Super Mutant instead of a stupid one.

If you were to allow for the game to be continued even if you get dipped, that sounds like a massive endeavor. For one thing, you have to face the fact that your journey should NOT be the same as a mutant, because the people of the wastes were not receptive to them, at this point. It was many decades before places like Broken Hills were established that showed any form of open acceptance for non-pure humans, and the Necropolis was a refuge for those kinds of ostracized people. But as far as gameplay is concerned, the actual transformation, I imagine, should have a small basis on Luck. Just like the RP's EPA sex change has a chance to instantly kill the player, there should be a chance that the Vault Dweller getting dipped resulted in catastrophic, fatal failure, as well as the possibility that, like Talius, he/she became transformed into a Ghoul-like Mutant, instead of a Super Mutant.

But that option should really be taken with a heavy, heavy grain of salt, Sduibek. Remember, unlike what I believe you're trying to attain by "reimplementing" certain features into your mod, getting dipped would HEAVILY break the established canon of the game. No matter what could happen to the Vault Dweller, he/she would be rendered sterile, and canonically he/she went on to have children.

I just want to add two things:
- the first, Harold being ghoul-like MIGHT have something to do with his lesser exposure to FEV. He wasn't actually dipped inside the vats, but was knocked down in contact with pools of it IIRC. Talius, however, was completely dipped.
- the second is that Necropolis isn't full of ghouls only because they aren't accepted (in fact, they might not be accepted because Set asks them to attack anyone on the streets, basically), but because they became ghouls there. Most of them come from Vault 12 (was it 12?), which door didn't completely seal when the bombs fell.
 
Sduibek said:
They are ghouls because of radiation.

I'm aware, it was answering to the post I quoted, where it states Necropolis is kind of a place where ghouls made home. I just wanted to clarify that this is because it was their home before the war, and not just a kind of hub where they went because they weren't accepted anywhere else.
 
Now I get tempted to play as a Super Mutant in Fallout 2. Ofcourse it would alter the gamestyle quite drastically, seeing as you wouldn't be able to solve the Gecko/Vault City dispute, the Redding sheriff chain and probably a whole lot of others that are just too racist to even talk to you or even engage you due to mutation.

Not to mention you cannot carry Power Armour, but the hell... small price to pay. ;)
 
Oppen said:
- the second is that Necropolis isn't full of ghouls only because they aren't accepted (in fact, they might not be accepted because Set asks them to attack anyone on the streets, basically), but because they became ghouls there. Most of them come from Vault 12 (was it 12?), which door didn't completely seal when the bombs fell.
Yes, but even if we were to discount the manner of negative attention Ghouls receive in FO2 as not-yet-normal and we simply take how Ghouls are treated in FO1, Harold's story already leads credence to the notion that Ghouls receive negative attention. Harold was a prominent mover and shaker before his mutation, and simply mutating led his contacts and partners to abandon him, leaving him a bum by the time he's encountered in Oldtown. Yes, the Ghouls of the Necropolis are segregated there because Set riled all of the surface inhabitants into a hostile, exclusionary mob, but the peaceful subterranean Ghouls weren't under "house arrest" of any kind. They stayed because they had nowhere else to go, because Ghouls were stigmatized from the very beginning.

It's important to consider that if the Vault Dweller became a Ghoul-like Mutant then their journey would be met with difficult roadblocks simply because of that. Hell, even if they became a Super Mutant, and they didn't lose any intelligence, it wouldn't be the same. Settlements like the NCR and Broken Hills that accept Mutants and Ghouls in FO2 were notable moves towards progress that hadn't been seen in the past (during FO1) because of the racism surrounding people's perceptions of them. Just because Set kept a large group of Ghouls to defend his home at what would become the Necropolis doesn't mean that the alienation didn't exist. Every major settlement may not have been as bad as Vault City, but they weren't exactly Followers of the Apocalypse, either.
 
I don't think interactions will be much of an issue, because once the player is dipped they are basically a servant of the Master anyway, so the rest of the game consists of killing everything.

The ONLY exception to this is if the player becomes a "Smart Mutant", thus retaining the ability to remember why they did or didn't truly believe in what the Master wanted for them.
 
I see, so you're not really leaving the game open to continue being played after being dipped, you're just providing an opportunity to play out the cutscene... Meh, sounds like pointless fluff to add to the game, really. If it were to illustrate a plot point that had been intended but was left out, I'd understand your desire to implement it, but it already has the cutscene. =/
 
SnapSlav said:
I see, so you're not really leaving the game open to continue being played after being dipped, you're just providing an opportunity to play out the cutscene... Meh, sounds like pointless fluff to add to the game, really. If it were to illustrate a plot point that had been intended but was left out, I'd understand your desire to implement it, but it already has the cutscene. =/
What else would there even be to do? As far as I know, there was no planned/created content in a Dipped Endgame except what you are saying, killing the Overseer (it's in an unused Narrator subtitles file).

But really, what would you suggest? People would freak out seeing the player, saving the Vault would no longer matter, etc. I don't see how anything could exist except a "ohhhh, cool!" factor, which is the whole reason to implement it. There IS no storyline after being dipped, because once people are dipped they're either dead or stupid or a pawn.

I'll probably leave it so all dialog functions the same, for now, because adding an exception to every script is a pain in the ass for such a small gain. So technically yes you can continue playing.

Me personally, I will love being able to be a mutant and kill everything including the Overseer. I think that will be fucking great. I enjoy killing everything anyway, but this will be better because 1) Play continues after being dipped, which I always had wondered about 2) I think being able to act out the cutscene is a great idea 3) it was impossible to kill Overseer before 4) adds an extra level to the "evil douchebag player that slaughters town" playtype, because now you're slaughtering towns as an Invading Mutant :twisted:
 
SnapSlav said:
Long post.
I think I misexpressed. What I meant wasn't that ghouls aren't discriminated, but instead to point out that's not the main reason Necropolis is full of ghouls. Contrary to Broken Hills and Gecko, where they reunited because they are excluded everywhere else and choose to form a society, in Necropolis they are mostly from there from virtually forever.
I'm not denying the fact, but pointing out that's not the main reason there, just that.
 
Sduibek said:
I don't think interactions will be much of an issue, because once the player is dipped they are basically a servant of the Master anyway, so the rest of the game consists of killing everything.

The ONLY exception to this is if the player becomes a "Smart Mutant", thus retaining the ability to remember why they did or didn't truly believe in what the Master wanted for them.

Forgive me for not being intimately familiar with the contents of your mod (I stopped actively playing the first Fallout some time ago), but if you haven't already re-included them, the Thinker Nightkin could be a viable "third road" for the character to take in that scenario. (If you're not familiar with them, they were a faction of Nightkin who thought humanity and mutants could co-exist and share the wastes peacefully). They might be a way to include quest hooks, friendly non-CoC human npcs, and even encampments/communities, for those less violently inclined. (Nothing but the barest bones of their cut content exists, though, so that might be a bit of a chore.)
 
Back
Top