Dont u share the ideas of The Master?

[jupiter2]

Well i sometimes ask myself this question:if me or you had the possibility to be better(stronger,clever or else)abandoning our mankind,would we be ready to do so?

If a scientist offered you to become stronger changing your genes,would you accept?

Mankind is corrupted by war,anger,desire,thievery,etc,we all know that.

Dont u think that studying the effects of genes on our personality can be a solution.

I am sure that the worst killers share some genes that make them agressive or that there is something in their adn that makes them act like this.Of course there are other things that determintate their personality(social class,way of living,parents,etc).

Talking about genetic experiences always make people shout and provoke scandals.

Indeed we tend to think that changing genes is a way of killing a part our freedom.

However,i think that many of us would be ready to coose this path if it could make them better.

I amnot defending any ideology,i am just wondering if genetic cannot make moral and physical sufferings dissappear

 

[The Guardian]

That, I believe, is racial eugenics and National Socialism.

 

[Tagaziel]

That, I believe, is total idiocy on your part.

Do you have any idea what National Socialism actually entails, and racial eugenics for that matter?

 

[The Guardian]

That, I believe, is total idiocy on your part.

Ah, the attitude of the NMA old guard - I love it.

Do you have any idea what National Socialism actually entails, and racial eugenics for that matter?

Indeed I do, on the first point. National Socialism in practice removed sick genes from society, rapists, criminals and alcoholics were placed in concentration camps (most famously "Dachau" for the removal of these early sick elements). It was only later that these camps included non-German elements like Jews and whatnot. All of these criminals were placed in these camps based upon a genetic supposition that these problems (raping, serial killing and alcoholism) were genetic (although that is not to say that rehabilitation was impossible, however).

So in the removal of these genes (or in NS Germany's case, partial removal as I mentioned before about rehabilitation) they, from a National Socialist perspective would eventually cease to exist, which is more or less what the original poster is suggesting, albeit the National Socialist system would be much slower, and, compared to the Master's solution, much more humane.

Racial eugenics on the other hand, such as the abortive T4 euthanasia program and Lebensborn, runs similarly along the same theory that led to the concentration camp system, except were perhaps more "extreme", which is why the former of these two, the T4 program, was dropped because of the protest against it.

If we are talking strictly idealized National-Socialism or how the state functioned theoretically, then very little of that would contain anything about bettering the 'race' or eugenics. I would direct you to the 25-Point program, which is judicial, political and geographic in nature, rather than scientific.

Talking about genetic experiences always make people shout and provoke scandals.

Indeed! Interplay were way ahead of their time in application of genetics in Fallout and even Fallout 2 (with the Enclave).

 

[jupiter2]

I dont say that in a politician way of thinking.I just wonder if could not help mankind by making suffering disappear.
We do not decide where and when we born,and wich parents we have,which genes we inherit.

Imagine that one day someone tells you:before your birth we were obliged to remove a gene that could have made of you a murderer.Would you blame him for that?

I am aware of the fact that there are risk and that such technology could be use to control people.
But at the same timethinking that you can become better thanks to genetic science has something attractive.

 

[Grayswandir]

That, I believe, is racial eugenics and National Socialism.

You are mistaking one possible use of such application, with the application itself. The scientific working on the gene of obesity, or alcoholism aren't nazis or affiliate. Put a rifle in the hand of a hunter and you will have meat. Put it in the hand of a psycho, you will have murders.

Would I myself have gene modification if i believed I could be better?

I think that, yes I would.
But neither do I believe in destiny, neither do i think that my gene are what's define myself. Not all people with the obesity/alcoholic gene are big or drunkers, and the same goes for the murderer gene. You yourself define whoyou are.
I guess I would be different, (maybe have blond hair, replaceable teeth), but i still would be myself.
If an alcoholic were to have a "gene modification", I think he still would be one after.


Precisely on the subject, i advise the film Welcome to Gattaca...

 

[The Guardian]

You are mistaking one possible use of such application, with the application itself.

I agree. Racial eugenics is very different than the modern study and application of "gene therapy" or genetic modification. However eugenics was an active system used by the NSDAP and affiliate organizations throughout 1933-45, and perhaps even before and after these dates. Lebensborn, the concentration camp system and T4 are all examples of active eugenics applied to humans. While the method may be different, both eugenics and what jupiter2 suggests are similar in projected outcome.

My point is that whatever National Socialism is on paper, no matter what in practice it will inevitably remove unwanted genetic material in favor of better human outcomes. Racial eugenics on the other hand, is by itself a means to attain these ends, and was applied to humans in a plethora of countries throughout history.

 

[Tagaziel]

Indeed I do, on the first point. National Socialism in practice removed sick genes from society, rapists, criminals and alcoholics were placed in concentration camps (most famously "Dachau" for the removal of these early sick elements). It was only later that these camps included non-German elements like Jews and whatnot. All of these criminals were placed in these camps based upon a genetic supposition that these problems (raping, serial killing and alcoholism) were genetic (although that is not to say that rehabilitation was impossible, however).

You're using terms you have no idea about. Nazism is a political ideology, a theory. It's application is another matter entirely, thus you're making a big error, automatically equating nazism with persecution of minorities.

If you're going to make an argument, try looking up the definition of the words you're posting.

So in the removal of these genes (or in NS Germany's case, partial removal as I mentioned before about rehabilitation) they, from a National Socialist perspective would eventually cease to exist, which is more or less what the original poster is suggesting, albeit the National Socialist system would be much slower, and, compared to the Master's solution, much more humane.

Nice job at not understand the point.

The poster was referring to the Master's dream of creating a single, master race adapted to the harsh reality of the wastelands, but not through extermination of humans, but by taking them and evolving to a higher level with FEV-II.

It was a choice too, but if you refused to be dipped, you'd be sterilised and let go, in order to prevent continued production of a flawed human model.

Read up on what the Master actually planned.

Racial eugenics on the other hand, such as the abortive T4 euthanasia program and Lebensborn, runs similarly along the same theory that led to the concentration camp system, except were perhaps more "extreme", which is why the former of these two, the T4 program, was dropped because of the protest against it.

If we are talking strictly idealized National-Socialism or how the state functioned theoretically, then very little of that would contain anything about bettering the 'race' or eugenics. I would direct you to the 25-Point program, which is judicial, political and geographic in nature, rather than scientific.

And parts of it are quite progressive, actually.

On topic it was not racial eugenics, since the creation of the new man was practically instantenous - a man dipped, a supermutant created.

You're seriously misunderstanding both the OP and the Master's program.

 

[The Guardian]

Nazism is a political ideology, a theory.

National Socialism is much more than a mere political ideology.

It's application is another matter entirely, thus you're making a big error, automatically equating nazism with persecution of minorities.

I made a point of stressing that the argument laid within the application of a National Socialist society, and referred you to the 25 point program for idealistic National Socialism, which too was applied in a very potent way.

If you're going to make an argument, try looking up the definition of the words you're posting.

In what way am I faltering on word definitions here? You haven't really disproved anything.

It was a choice too, but if you refused to be dipped, you'd be sterilised and let go, in order to prevent continued production of a flawed human model.

Although there was no choice, as there was no magic German making virus available, this too was applied to "the Rhineland bastards" (offspring of German women and black rapists from French colonies) to "prevent continued production of a flawed human model".

And parts of it are quite progressive, actually.

I am not denying the political superiority of National Socialism.

You're seriously misunderstanding both the OP and the Master's program.

Both systems were bent on creating better humans, and eliminating older, backwards models.

The Aryan superman is a quasi-Nietzschean theory political in nature, the attempt by the new government to eliminate unwanted genetic material, to create better humans, was scientific in nature. The two have little to do with one another. These humans too would be "adapted to the harsh reality of the materialistic wasteland" and ready to fight against it at home and wherever the NSDAP desired.

but not through extermination of humans

You misunderstand the way the NSDAP used concentration camps. I thought this was a debate, not a propaganda outlet.

 

[Tagaziel]

National Socialism is much more than a mere political ideology.

Says the person who focuses on a single aspect of it, as if it was the only thing that matters.

I made a point of stressing that the argument laid within the application of a National Socialist society, and referred you to the 25 point program for idealistic National Socialism, which too was applied in a very potent way.

You didn't make a point that stressed the application of said ideology in practice. You made a point that nazism was only about slaughtering people for no particular reason.

In what way am I faltering on word definitions here? You haven't really disproved anything.

Because, quite frankly, you did a better job of it than I.

Although there was no choice, as there was no magic German making virus available, this too was applied to "the Rhineland bastards" (offspring of German women and black rapists from French colonies) to "prevent continued production of a flawed human model".

Are you seriously drawing an analogy between the Master and Hitler?

...

I am not denying the political superiority of National Socialism.

Nice attempt at stuffing words in my mouth.

Both systems were bent on creating better humans, and eliminating older, backwards models.

The core difference is that the Master actually had a working, fool proof method of creating faster, stronger, better humans.

The Aryan superman is a quasi-Nietzschean theory political in nature, the attempt by the new government to eliminate unwanted genetic material, to create better humans, was scientific in nature. The two have little to do with one another. These humans too would be "adapted to the harsh reality of the materialistic wasteland" and ready to fight against it at home and wherever the NSDAP desired.

Are you seriously comparing objectively stronger Supermutants to self-deluded, brainwashed Germans?

You misunderstand the way the NSDAP used concentration camps. I thought this was a debate, not a propaganda outlet.

Is idiocy a trait in your family? Or are you the unfortunate retard?

Here's the exact quote from my post:

"The poster was referring to the Master's dream of creating a single, master race adapted to the harsh reality of the wastelands, but not through extermination of humans, but by taking them and evolving to a higher level with FEV-II. "

How can you understand that as Holocaust Denial is beyond me.

No, wait, you're simply stupid. That explains. A lot.

 

[The Guardian]

I think that your anger is making this a real issue.

Says the person who focuses on a single aspect of it, as if it was the only thing that matters.

I understand how you can see it this way, but by no means do I consider this aspect, perhaps government supported scientific projects in the Reich, as the single most important aspect of National Socialism. To me, the most important aspect of National Socialism is European solidarity (Waffen-SS) and anti-Bolshevism. However that does not mean that I think that only one part of National Socialism is more important than the entire organism. That is absurd.

However with something as vague as "this is National Socialism" I can understand how anyone could think that. I was wrong and misleading to do this, my mistake. I apologize.

You made a point that nazism was only about slaughtering people for no particular reason.

It is actually my personal opinion that any person killed under the reign of the NSDAP is as justifiable as any person being killed by any government, benevolent or not. I would like an exact quote espousing my belief that National Socialism killed people for no particular reason please.

Are you seriously drawing an analogy between the Master and Hitler?

A fool would deny that there are none whatsoever similarities between the two leaders.

The core difference is that the Master actually had a working, fool proof method of creating faster, stronger, better humans.

I agree with you, other than a few fundamental flaws with the finished product.

Are you seriously comparing objectively stronger Supermutants to self-deluded, brainwashed Germans?

Every single army that fought in the Second World War against the Greater German Reich has tipped their hat to the fighting effectiveness and superiority of the German Armed Forces and Waffen-SS. This was due to a better warrior ethic, training and technology.

The Supermutant army and the German Reich are hardly carbon copies, but once again, to deny any similarities is foolish.

Is idiocy a trait in your family? Or are you the unfortunate retard?

Bring on the pain.

but not through extermination of humans

The Reich didn't have this plan either if we're speaking strictly about Germans themselves and not non-Germans.

However, my disagreement with this point is that I never indicated that it was part of the Reich's plan to wipe out people with defective gene X or Y, rather than remove them from society, sterilize them, or by euthanasia (in extreme cases).

Your accusing me of comparing humans being dipped by the master and Germans killing any one other than a infinitesimal populations of mentally deranged people is ludicrous. Concentration camps pre-war were eliminating the presence of sick people from society, and limiting their ability to breed, nothing to do with killing, nothing to do with "no particular reason" killing people.

 

[Tagaziel]

It is actually my personal opinion that any person killed under the reign of the NSDAP is as justifiable as any person being killed by any government, benevolent or not. I would like an exact quote espousing my belief that National Socialism killed people for no particular reason please.

Covered above, you poorly phrased the initial reply.

A fool would deny that there are none whatsoever similarities between the two leaders.

Because there aren't. Beginning with origins, their development, ending with fates, the two are completely different.

Every single army that fought in the Second World War against the Greater German Reich has tipped their hat to the fighting effectiveness and superiority of the German Armed Forces and Waffen-SS. This was due to a better warrior ethic, training and technology.

Technology?

HARDLY. The Soviets had the best overall technology in World War II. Any superior technology Germans had was extremely limited and unable to tip the scales of war.

I agree on the ethos and training. By far the best trained regular troops, before they started losing, at least.

The Supermutant army and the German Reich are hardly carbon copies, but once again, to deny any similarities is foolish.

Shows how little of Fallout 1 you have played. The attitudes of the Supermutants themselves are a clear indication of just how different they are from the Nazis.

The Reich didn't have this plan either if we're speaking strictly about Germans themselves and not non-Germans.

However, my disagreement with this point is that I never indicated that it was part of the Reich's plan to wipe out people with defective gene X or Y, rather than remove them from society, sterilize them, or by euthanasia (in extreme cases).

Your accusing me of comparing humans being dipped by the master and Germans killing any one other than a infinitesimal populations of mentally deranged people is ludicrous. Concentration camps pre-war were eliminating the presence of sick people from society, and limiting their ability to breed, nothing to do with killing, nothing to do with "no particular reason" killing people.

Seriously, are you fucking retarded?

The sentence, again, I've bolded the relevant parts for you:

"The poster was referring to the Master's dream of creating a single, master race adapted to the harsh reality of the wastelands, but not through extermination of humans, but by taking them and evolving to a higher level with FEV-II. "

Where are Germans in the above sentence?

And seriously, why the hell did you even try to bring this parallel up?

 

[The Guardian]

Covered above, you poorly phrased the initial reply.

The initial reply was extremely simplistic, and somewhat misleading, true, but Mikael in no way does it indicate my supposed "belief" that "Nazis" killed people for no particular reason.

I ask again for an exact quote stating that I said, conveyed or expressed my belief that the "Nazis" killed people for no particular reason, because they did not, that was a Bolshevik specialty.

Because there aren't. Beginning with origins, their development, ending with fates, the two are completely different.

There are similarities. Don't be so quick to toss out any possibility. Both people were attempting to overthrow an old, broken order with what they perceived as something better, both were megalomaniacs (I read somewhere that the Master had the cathedral built), both were semi-mythical and had massive cults of personality, and both were geniuses. The list goes on. Both had an idea of a better human, and both actively pursued to create one.

Seriously, are you fucking retarded?

Masochistic perhaps. I am not here to apologize for my intelligence.

And the original post is very loose and open to interpretation. I just said that (or meant, I admit) that the bettering of a people genetically was an idea that National Socialist Germany used.

The Soviets had the best overall technology in World War II.

When I was writing my last post down I was thinking of firearms, and to a lesser extent tracked AFVs and soft-skinned vehicles. As far as rocket-artillery, to a small extent fighter-bombers, and of course numbers are concerned, the Russians had the Reich beat - unfortunately.

 

[Nonagon]

Before Mikhail and a Nazi got themselves into a heated debate, the OP had a topic...

and yes, I would take an opportunity like that in a heartbeat. Being able to live long enough to make some changes in this world would be a great thing.

Though, I believe if we did something like this, our world would literally become Starcraft IRL. China would likely zerg rush the world.

 

[Beelzebud]

Want to be like Hitler? Kill yourself!

 

[Ravager69]

Not read all the post before me to keep my opinion uninfluenced, but I don't think that artificial evolution is a good thing.

Elevating people to a higher level would prove to be a temporary solution, as people would start to differ from another sooner or later. Thus, all the problems would begin again.

Manipulating with genes is good for eliminating genetical diseases, that's all. People shouldn't be born out of someone's whim or taste - you should accept who you are, who your children will be and just deatl with the world you get.

 

[The Guardian]

Want to be like Hitler? Kill yourself!

Who does?! Get the pyre built! We shall kill it with fire!

 

[DarkCorp]

It seems to me nazi germany never planned on "upgrading" everyone. You were either close enough to be germanised or you were killed/worked to death outright.

The master had a plan to "upgrade eveyone", not just a certain minority. The super mutants also understood that the UNITY was a family, which would be a total contrast to what national socialism was.

So I would take the stance that Hitler and the Master were totally different. One wanted to kill everyone who wasn't "germanic or aryan", which as far as I know had no certain set of principles besides shit they just made up (Hitler himself didn't even fucking look aryan). The latter wished to unite humanity not through a new form of government or religion but turning the whole of humanity into a gigantic family.

Edit: I think the Nazis were so successful not because of their superior technology but a new way of warfare. The utilised the principle of whoever gets there first with the most wins. Heinz Guderian emphasized the thought that armor instead used by itself, was meant to be deployed along with infantry support that kept pace, to "blitzkrieg enemy positions". Massive communication was necessary to co-ordinate assaults with each tank requiring a radio. The german army also worked closely with the airforce to maximize their strengths and minimize weaknesses. The biggest example would be the "the schwerpunkt plan'. Another useful technique was how battle command was implemented. Instead of recieving a direct command, the co would be given a basic idea of what his superior had in mind. It was then up to the CO to decide which method would be most efficient to carry out said order.

If you want to talk technology, the germans theoretically would still lose since because of their abhorrence of theoretical sciences which they linked to the Jews. Also, a large generation of young people were bred to be physically strong and indoctrinated that burte force alone was enough to win the war. (This is apparent with german fascination with everything big from building cannons to making "super tanks").

 

[Tagaziel]

The initial reply was extremely simplistic, and somewhat misleading, true, but Mikael in no way does it indicate my supposed "belief" that "Nazis" killed people for no particular reason.

I ask again for an exact quote stating that I said, conveyed or expressed my belief that the "Nazis" killed people for no particular reason, because they did not, that was a Bolshevik specialty.

There was a reason for communist crimes. Terror. Absolute terror.

And you still haven't proven that you made a different point.

There are similarities. Don't be so quick to toss out any possibility. Both people were attempting to overthrow an old, broken order with what they perceived as something better, both were megalomaniacs (I read somewhere that the Master had the cathedral built), both were semi-mythical and had massive cults of personality, and both were geniuses. The list goes on. Both had an idea of a better human, and both actively pursued to create one.

Find me something concrete, other than general similarities.

And the original post is very loose and open to interpretation. I just said that (or meant, I admit) that the bettering of a people genetically was an idea that National Socialist Germany used.

No, it was equating eugenics with nazism.

When I was writing my last post down I was thinking of firearms, and to a lesser extent tracked AFVs and soft-skinned vehicles. As far as rocket-artillery, to a small extent fighter-bombers, and of course numbers are concerned, the Russians had the Reich beat - unfortunately.

What?

Soviets had massive amounts of ordnance, far more than Germans could field. Their tanks were the best in the world, and they had more of them than the Germans.

 

[Dragula]

The Guardian: Stalin tried to breed monkeys with humans to creat a super army. That must be nazism too!