Dont u share the ideas of The Master?

[The Guardian]

Soviets had massive amounts of ordnance, far more than Germans could field. Their tanks were the best in the world, and they had more of them than the Germans.

Soviet tanks were only the best in the world from 40-43. After that most German designs fielded had no problem with these vehicles. However I agree with you on the more statement, but this is an indication of the Soviet industrial machine's efficiency, not any technological advantage over the Germans.

Find me something concrete, other than general similarities.

Concrete between the two leaders? Both adapted a "world view" based upon similar ideas, weakness, cowardice and materialism (greed) lead to great wars. Hitler's second book goes into the cowardice and weakness of European man in great length, which is what he considered led to the Great War and also what led Germany to lose it. He therefore, by using National-Socialism, began to reverse this trend, at least in Germany, but presumably Europe would eventually follow suit as well. The Master realized the same thing, the only real difference between the two is that the Master ironically used a corrupted military science to achieve this by making genetically superior humans.

And you still haven't proven that you made a different point.

And you still haven't proven that I said National Socialists killed for no particular reason. I doubt you ever will.

No, it was equating eugenics with nazism.

Well, there is no way to prove this on my part. National-Socialism is a plethora of things, and eugenics is not an integral part. Adolf Hitler said in his party address in 1934 that, "[the NSDAP's] doctrine will be unchangeable, its organization will be as hard as steel, but its tactics flexible." Indicating that the idea of National-Socialism, which contained the idea of bettering the German people as a whole, was certainly not closed to the idea of eugenics applied on a national scale.

"We do not stand alone" - many nations embraced the possibility of making humans better, before the Allies demonized any such practices

National Socialism is certainly not eugenics, and the same can be said vice-versa. The two concepts are not entirely incompatible, however.

It seems to me nazi germany never planned on "upgrading" everyone. You were either close enough to be germanised or you were killed/worked to death outright.

Don't be stupid, Germany never had any designs for total world conquest and "Germanization or death" for everyone. The foreign legions of the Waffen-SS prove tantamount to this.

(Hitler himself didn't even fucking look aryan).

What does an Aryan look like? Pray tell? Don't give me the "blond haired, blue eyed" line because that simply IS NOT TRUE.

Read some works written by prominent National Socialists such as Rosenberg and discover that only a small faction of National Socialists were actually what we call "Nordicists" - people who push the idea that blond haired, blue eyed people are superior.

Addendum:

The Guardian: Stalin tried to breed monkeys with humans to creat a super army. That must be nazism too!

When I first read this it sounded like "DERP".

Stalin's idiotic plan was an aberration of science, nothing more and certainly not the precise science of eugenics National Socialism in Germany provided.

 

[DarkCorp]

Don't be stupid, Germany never had any designs for total world conquest and "Germanization or death" for everyone. The foreign legions of the Waffen-SS prove tantamount to this.

Uh, where in the hell did I say that the germans had designs for total world conquest, and how in the hell is that relevant to what I said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel#The_SS_during_World_War_II

"Himmler's recruitment specialist Gottlob Berger, wishing to expand the Waffen-SS without competing with the Wehrmacht for manpower, hit upon the idea of raising SS foreign legions of 'Germanic' blood. This appealed to Himmler, with his penchant for medieval lore, envisioning a united Aryan 'crusade' against what Nazis saw as the subhuman (Jews, Slavs, Gypsies) races and "Bolshevik hordes". While native German-speaking volunteers who met the high physical standards demanded of SS recruits were approved relatively quickly, the numbers were disappointing. Undeterred, Berger pressed for the creation of more and more foreign units as the available pool of German manpower decreased"

"The Waffen-SS maintained several "Foreign Legions" of personnel from conquered territories and countries allied to Germany. The majority wore a distinctive national collar patch and preceded their SS rank titles with the prefix Waffen instead of SS. Racial restrictions were relaxed to the extent that Ukrainian Slavs, Albanians from Kosovo, and Turkic Tatars' units were recruited. The Ukrainians and the Tatars had both suffered persecution under Stalin and their motive was a hatred of Communism rather than sympathy for National Socialism. The year long Soviet occupation of the Baltic states at the beginning of World War II produced volunteers for Estonian and Latvian Waffen-SS units, though majority of those units still was formed by forced draft."

Wow germanic blood huh. Seems like those "foreign legions" you spoke of were only because there were massive german casualties and it was an act of desperation. The nazis used them only because they had grudges against the Soviet Union. There was never an original plan to use "inferior races" in the Waffen SS.

Don't be stupid, Germany never had any designs for total world conquest and "Germanization or death" for everyone. The foreign legions of the Waffen-SS prove tantamount to this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

"Lebensraum (help·info) (German for "habitat" or literally "living space") served as a major motivation for Nazi Germany's territorial aggression. In his book Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler detailed his belief that the German people needed Lebensraum (for a Grossdeutschland, land, and raw materials), and that it should be taken in the East. It was the stated policy of the Nazis to kill, deport, Germanize or enslave the Polish, and later also Russian and other Slavic populations, and to repopulate the land with (reinrassig) Germanic peoples. The entire urban population was to be exterminated by starvation, thus creating an agricultural surplus to feed Germany and allowing their replacement by a German upper class.

Oh sorry I missed the fucking slavery point. So its germanisation, death OR slavery.

What does an Aryan look like? Pray tell? Don't give me the "blond haired, blue eyed" line because that simply IS NOT TRUE. Read some works written by prominent National Socialists such as Rosenberg and discover that only a small faction of National Socialists were actually what we call "Nordicists"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Rosenberg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_the_Twentieth_Century

"Rosenberg promoted the Nordic theory which considered Nordic peoples to be the "master race".

"Rosenberg's racial interpretation of history concentrates on the supposedly negative influence of the Jewish race in contrast to the Aryan race. He equates the latter with the NORDIC peoples of northern Europe."

Tell me how the fuck was Rosenberg not a nordicist? I mean he was intergral in the development of the nazi view of "Aryanism and how it relates to the master race"

 

[the_cpl]

selfcensored post

 

[DarkCorp]

Wikipedia. Come on, they censorship even the facts about Obama. If you get your infos from the wikipedia, you fail.

Anyway, did you know the winners write the history books?

Bah in your view then discussions like these are pointless, since history will always be biased.

Second, if you scroll down they have the info sources at the bottom from what I gather.

Lastly, The Guardian called me out so I had to do my best to prove my side of the argument. He has the gall to call me stupid and list no sources for his information.

Honestly wikipedia is the quickest information source I can find. I doubt most people here have the time to go delve through three to four books just to prove some tiny point in some small thread.

PS: Check out Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich. Great book with lots of info. Since I couldn't really quote the exact pages and don't have the book with me then wiki is going to have to do.

Bah you got me hooked.

http://militaryhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/hitler_s_foreign_legion__waffen_ss

"Despite the SS belief in the superiority of the German race, the decline in German military fortunes caused the SS to quietly shelve their racist beliefs about ‘Untermenschen’ in favor of the more practical policy of recruiting these essentially Slavic peoples to fight against the Soviets."

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/waffen-ss.htm

"To go with this, Waffen-SS units were made up of men from Eastern Europe. They went completely in the face of Nazi racial purity but they were needed to fight the Partisans who were becoming more and more successful in the east. The sole qualification to join was a hatred of communism. The Waffen-SS was to include Croats, Albanians, Russians, Ukrainians, and Caucasians etc. Over 100,000 Ukrainians responded to Himmler’s call in April 1943."

As to Alfred Rosenberg,

http://tripatlas.com/The_Myth_of_the_Twentieth_Century


And Lebensraum,

http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Generalplan:Ost.htm

Generalplan Ost, essentially a grand plan for ethnic cleansing, was divided into two parts, the Kleine Planung ("Small Plan"), which covered actions which were to be taken during the war, and the Große Planung ("Big Plan"), which covered actions to be undertaken after the war was won. The plan envisaged differing percentages of the various conquered nations undergoing germanisation, expulsion into to the depths of Russia, and other gruesome fates, the net effect of which would be to ensure that the conquered territories would take on an irrevocably German character. In ten years time, the plan called for the extermination of all Slavs still living behind the front line. Instead 250 millions Germans should live in an extended "Reich" 50 years after the war. Hitler compared during a visit to Finland- celebrating the birthday of Mannerheim -his ongoing conquest with the Cossacks, who had reached the Pacific Ocean.

Under the Große Planung, Generalplan Ost foresaw the eventual expulsion of more than 50 million Slavs beyond the Urals. Of the Poles, only about 3-4 million people were supposed to be left residing in the former Poland, and then only to serve as slaves for German settlers. Generalplan Ost included one component which did get realized in the main - the Endlösung der Judenfrage (" Final Solution of the Jewish Question").

http://www.google.com/archivesearch...AQ&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&resnum=11&ct=title

"Sep 1939 - Immediately after the German invasion of Poland in September 1939, the Nazi German government begun the realization of the first stages (the small plan) of the Generalplan Ost: [3] Slavic people East of Germany were to be either Germanized, enslaved or eradicated"

 

[the_cpl]

selfcensored post

 

[DarkCorp]

Check out Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich

That's why I don't argue about history.

I found a review about this book's writer, he praises the Soviets. I'm sure his books a cool, lol!



I don't tell you what should you read to get the truth, because you don't care about it, obviously.

Well the only reason I brought the book up was you assumed the only info I got was from Wikipedia. As for me telling you what to do it was not the case and I could have worded it better.

Edit: Also I checked out some of the reviews at Amazon and although not one book will give anyone complete knowledge of the third reich, a great many reviewers responded positively about Shirers work.

And please by all means suggest some books to me that in (your view) happen to be completely objective in regards to the subjects at hand.

 

[the_cpl]

selfcensored post

 

[DarkCorp]

Anyway, the allies was friends of the communists. The communists killed 100,000,000 people. North Korea still communist. Obama said he wants friendship with them. The US bombed Dresden, 300,000 civilians died. The US bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 220,000 victims. The US had concantration camps for "untrusted" people and Japanese people during the WW2. The Soviets had 4900! death and working camps (gulags), 20,000,000 people died there. Israel captured a land, killed tenthousands of arabs, they running an apartheid there, they also killed over 1300 Lebanese and 1500 Gaza citizens in the past 3 years. The US government is a huge fan of Israel. In the past few years there are 1million civilian victims in Iraq. And more...

Maybe you are interested in these videochannels on the youtube for more infos:
http://www.youtube.com/user/JackdoodleUploads
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TruthIsDangerous1972&view=videos

The youtube has many informations, though they suspend the popular real history channels time-to-time. (But I guess this is another topic about the freedom of speech.)

I don't know what your trying to express but if your implying the US has gotten its hands dirty I will agree with you there. Just looking at history will show that almost every major nation at some point in history has been an asshole.

Also the main reason I got into this discussion was to give my 2 cents. I would have left it at that too. However, nowhere in my post did I call The Guardian stupid. So if he goes and calls me out like that with no info to back it up, I'm not gonna let that go.

 

[the_cpl]

selfcensored post

 

[The Guardian]

Uh, where in the hell did I say that the germans had designs for total world conquest, and how in the hell is that relevant to what I said.

Not exactly, but the way you worded "everyone" that was close enough to be Germanized, was, anyone who was not was "worked to death" - which given the canon historical interpretation of "Nazi" Germany's "aggression" as a bid for world domination is a wholly acceptable assumption from where I'm sitting.

If not than I apologize, still, "Germanized or worked to death?" If Germany pursued that policy then how did millions of foreign volunteers assist them in this heinous belief? Most historians now know that this was not true, and a few books have been published to acknowledge this. However, in view of all Holocaust Deniers being barred in jail, the quantity of work on this revelation is still quite small compared to the canonical "Nazis killed EVRY1", which is supported by leftist liberal governments and the media alike.

To push this further, I would point out to you some of the works by David Irving, Goebbels: Mastermind of the Third Reich, works by Leon Degrelle as well, who was a firm supporter of the Greater German Reich until his death - he was a Walloon.

Oh sorry I missed the fucking slavery point. So its germanisation, death OR slavery.

Hack-historians who write about being worked to death equate this with slavery, so no, you did no wrong here. However, slavery in the Reich was simply not true, not for any Europeans in any work camps, nor for Jews, gypsies, etc.

Check out, Concentration Camp Money: 'Lagergeld' used to Pay Prisoners for Their Work, The Barnes Review. I can supply a link if you'd like.

Lebensraum, if one were to perhaps READ Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler, would be understood as living space within Germany, given out to foreigners such as Russian/Polish Jews, Czechs, French, etc. In this case Hitler meant mainly French occupied parts of Germany such as the Saar and parts of the Rhineland.

It could be perceived that Lebensraum would be part of Russia, such as the western Ukraine and Byelorussia, but seriously, this was not why the Greater German Reich DoW'd the USSR. Read Ice Breaker by Viktor Suvorov. It details the USSR's plan to conquer not just Germany before Germany DoW'd her, but also all of Europe. To any Europeans out there, this is a startling fact, as it turns out you owe the NSDAP a lot more than you're willing to admit.

"Rosenberg promoted the Nordic theory which considered Nordic peoples to be the "master race".

Indeed, he was one of the only men within the Reich who promoted this idea. There were a few others, but strictly speaking the term "Aryan" indicates a human who has become a veritable "Superman" in ethics and morality, regardless of sub-racial type. I don't think any National-Socialist would admit that a non-European could be considered an Aryan, despite all of this.

Tell me how the fuck was Rosenberg not a nordicist? I mean he was intergral in the development of the nazi view of "Aryanism and how it relates to the master race"

Well fuck, he was a fucking Nordicist, for fuck's sake. And fucking one of the only fuckers of his fucking type within the fucking fuck fuck Reich fuck.

He is but one man, and National-Socialists have a saying; "The many before the one." It's printed on all of their coinage, and within the 25 points. So if the people of Germany didn't think blond eyed people were the only people applicable to Aryan status, then they would not be.

"To go with this, Waffen-SS units were made up of men from Eastern Europe. They went completely in the face of Nazi racial purity but they were needed to fight the Partisans who were becoming more and more successful in the east. The sole qualification to join was a hatred of communism. The Waffen-SS was to include Croats, Albanians, Russians, Ukrainians, and Caucasians etc. Over 100,000 Ukrainians responded to Himmler’s call in April 1943."

I have a better one, The Story of the Waffen SS by Leon Degrelle.

Want more sources? I have an entire society of intellectuals pumping them out.

 

[Jotisz]

I dont say that in a politician way of thinking.I just wonder if could not help mankind by making suffering disappear.
We do not decide where and when we born,and wich parents we have,which genes we inherit.

Imagine that one day someone tells you:before your birth we were obliged to remove a gene that could have made of you a murderer.Would you blame him for that?

I am aware of the fact that there are risk and that such technology could be use to control people.
But at the same timethinking that you can become better thanks to genetic science has something attractive.

Sorry to interrupt you guys but I just read through the posts and when I see this post guess what crosed my mind... A. Huxley: Brave New world. I think messing with genetics to create ideal sociaty would end up something like that

 

[nemo00]

Well i sometimes ask myself this question:if me or you had the possibility to be better(stronger,clever or else)abandoning our mankind,would we be ready to do so?

If a scientist offered you to become stronger changing your genes,would you accept?

Mankind is corrupted by war,anger,desire,thievery,etc,we all know that.

Dont u think that studying the effects of genes on our personality can be a solution.

I am sure that the worst killers share some genes that make them agressive or that there is something in their adn that makes them act like this.Of course there are other things that determintate their personality(social class,way of living,parents,etc).

Talking about genetic experiences always make people shout and provoke scandals.

Indeed we tend to think that changing genes is a way of killing a part our freedom.

However,i think that many of us would be ready to coose this path if it could make them better.

I amnot defending any ideology,i am just wondering if genetic cannot make moral and physical sufferings dissappear

Oh jeesh most of the replys are sooo way of topic... Now to reply to the post that started all this

1. Actually gene modifications and therapies are already here, and will be much more wide spread in the future and a lot of them will contribute to the physical evolution of our species, first of all by eliminating genetical diseases, and then maybe even solve some other problems as cancer, or the replacement of organs.
2. It is a common myth that by modifying genes you could actually create a morally superior being and thus eliminate war, anger, desire(the last two are feelings which 1 of all are socially learned, and second of all are part of the wide paillette of feelings that make us human, and even if you could eliminate them you would also eliminate their opposites wich are positive feelings). Now for thievery...well that is a social concept that implys the concept of property. There are societies, of course very small and isolated ones, in which there is no sense of property thus there is no thievery, but these never invented the concept in the first place, now elliminating it in a society which already has it..... communism tried it and didn't really work out. Also the chances to eliminate psychos from society by genetical modification well that is also an error, and an ideal which was tried on numerous occasions , and always ended in killing more people than actually a psycho would ( as it can lead to stereotyping prejudice and than mass murder). Oh an also the most important thing morality is also a philosophical concept that changes with society( ex. considere in the case of suicide).

So as a i would like to conclude that genetical modification can eliminate most of the physical sufferings, (at least until new ones will appear) but trying to genetically induce behavioral modifications is always a bad idea. Just remember this: we are more than 99% similar with the chimps(oh and if i remember correctly like 80% similar with a rat), and when they completed the human genom they actually found that instead of the 100000 genes expected they discovered 10000, so this means that of these 10000 genes only a very few are specifically human, and these few have a bunch of other traits to influence (like the shape of our body, or in other words general biological characteristics) and there is simply not enough genes left to influence specific human emotion, heck you could wonder what the hell makes us human which enables us to write these boringly long posts

 

[x'il]

So as a i would like to conclude that genetical modification can eliminate most of the physical sufferings, (at least until new ones will appear) but trying to genetically induce behavioral modifications is always a bad idea.

Though i agree with this, short, medium and long term issues arise from genetical modification; 1- in the short/medium run, genetical modifications dedicated to cure illnesses and such would eventually and inevitably lead to improving, altering, "enhancing", thus creating a subsequent radical change in society's structure by the economics of physical alterations and enhancements (ever played Deus Ex: Invisible War?), which would of course lead to a pre-paid, pre-planned human being and a hierarchical society of castes, just think Gattaca. 2- even if any attempt to genetically induce behavioral modifications get prohibited, with the logically inevitable establishment of the society described above, it would only be a matter of time, not a long time at all, before that also gets accepted and widely implemented. 3- in the long run, who knows what could happen to the human species after some centuries of genetic modifications?....perhaps irreversible sterility, or genetic degradation due to the lack of variation, genetic stagnation or all of these together...who knows? maybe nothing that could be called human as we understand it now would be left...

 

[nemo00]

Though i agree with this, short, medium and long term issues arise from genetical modification; 1- in the short/medium run, genetic modifications dedicated to cure illnesses and such would eventually and inevitably lead to improving, altering, "enhancing", thus creating a subsequent radical change in society's structure by the economics of physical alterations and enhancements (ever played Deus Ex: Invisible War?), which would of course lead to a pre-paid, pre-planned human being and a hierarchical society of castes, just think Gattaca.

Well in a way you are correct, genetical modification could lead to a new social stratification and maybe a to form of casts, but in the same time we could have said the same thing about penicillin, as it wasn't accessible to all strata of society and enhanced the life expectancy of those who had. I guess it all depends on how any medical breakthrough gets implemented, and if a democratic society which has human rights and personal freedoms as its core idealsi s vigilant enough to prevent such a threat.

2- even if any attempt to genetically induce behavioral modifications get prohibited, with the logically inevitable establishment of the society described above, it would only be a matter of time, not a long time at all, before that also gets accepted and widely implemented.

Sadly this is correct as no matter how many times history proves that trying to eliminate specific behaviors or identify individuals which could a threat to society through biological procedures is very dangerous and i stressed in my previous post procedures like this always and up killing and harming more people as the potential murderer would do. The sad truth is that we are all capable of murder, or of antisocial behavior as social norms are based on the concept of human/animal difference (that we are superior to all other form of life on Earth) so they are entirely against our genetic coding and instincts, (try to teach a lion not to hunt and live on vegetables because it is not moral to kill a gazelle, i guess you would end up as it's main course). Trying to eliminate this trough biological means would turn humans into vegetables

3- in the long run, who knows what could happen to the human species after some centuries of genetic modifications?....perhaps irreversible sterility, or genetic degradation due to the lack of variation, genetic stagnation or all of these together...who knows? maybe nothing that could be called human as we understand it now would be left...aiee:

Well at this point I think you R not entirely right, as any society that would be based on genetic purity would also acknowledge that genetic variation is the basic requirement of its survival, and as it probably would have a slogan like the III Reich with the many before the one, it would surely force it's members to conceive via artificial means through which they would match the best candidates genetic material (does Vault city ring a bell ) this being automatically done respecting the principle previously mentioned.

 

[4too]

Reality Check, "... It's In The Mail!"

Reality Check, "... It's In The Mail!"

... Anyway, did you know the winners write the history books?

Hey an Orwellian theme! Recalls 1984's climatic vision of absolute power ...

... a BOOT stomping in the face of the fear ruled 'common man' ...

Got a chip on the shoulder, or is intimidation, the stomping, marching boots avatar, only a fashion statement to punctuate missionary posturing?

...
Every single army that fought in the Second World War against the Greater German Reich has tipped their hat to the fighting effectiveness and superiority of the German Armed Forces and Waffen-SS. This was due to a better warrior ethic, training and technology. ...

The 'Greater German Reich' lost the Second World War.

The Nazis are losers.

Not that the 'winners' were better role models, or inspire propaganda packages that bless any one's agenda.

In-spite of, or because of the millions condemned to the Gulag, the Soviets *won*.

Why no love for that other 20th century gangster, ...the Man of Steel ... Stalin?

Red not compliment the complexion, the fashion conscious are 'too sexy' in black.


More seriously,
won't some persona bursting with Bolshevik enthusiasm make a parallel with the Master and any other example of state terrorism
that endeavored to socially engineer the "Perfect Man".


No nostalgia for Uncle Joe?

No dreams of 'unity' spun by this 'son of the morning'?

Ever consider joining this 21st Century and trek with the few and the proud who choose to 'be here now'?

What personality is worthy of cult worship?

Whose boot will stomp it's destiny on the face of cowering 'common man'?

Uncle Sam seems bigger then any 'Dutch' uncle! Long may he wave, over amber kegs of grain!

Be Here Now? Time to dodge the boot looming before me and pen in and mail my 2008 tax returns!




4too

 

[myzko]

Mankind is corrupted by war,anger,desire,thievery,etc,we all know that.

And we all know this is not in our genes nor our nature -> It's socially engineered opon us.


A human being that grows up with wolves becomes like a wolf.