Fallout 2 mod EcCo Gameplay Overhaul (new version for RPU)

[lujo]

1. Crafting is rarely useful. Recipes are too expensive and usually not worth it. Why would I need to learn how to create a leather jacket for $300 in Klamath, when I can buy leather armor already? Spike traps do some 10 damage. What is there to do with them?
   Basically, the only thing I do craft are stimpacks and superstimpacks. (Which, incidentally, brings up the question - why Myron uses 1 stimpack to create a superstim, and player needs two?)
   I'd think about making recipes cheaper, accessible earlier, and lower skill checks. Otherwise, it's hardly ever used.

You have no idea XD You can look at traps as the biggest highlght of the mod (and they were the actual reason why I couldn't play without it afterwards).

If you can buy a leather armor you're playing way above the scarcity levels you ought to be playing at. When you play at max scarcity and lowest drops, and are trapping geckos, knowing how to craft that stuff is a big deal. Crafting soup is (or used to be) better than stimpacks, it makes all the loot from the Umbra Tribe even let you get through to Modoc and Vault City (again, if you're not having problems with that, just dial up the difficulty settings a bit they're too low XD).

As for Spike Traps - they're one of the strongest things in the game. Did you notice that they actually make enemies stop? They're the closest tihng to actual crowd control in the game. You can set up any fight before it begins, like plant traps around the entrance to Metzgers, get your gang behind a wall in the building on the right and have the best imaginable fight in fallout 2 (and that's nothing compared to casing out a casino before going up, sneaking and planting traps where folks don't see you for an EVEN crazier fight). However, if you're not playing with party member control - well, you're missing out on a lot.

Not to mention that you can use spike traps to get through toxic caves, too, but again, if you're not having trouble with that - too low difficulty. At a more appropriate difficulty/scarcity and with party control they're the best thing ever, damage is unimportant.

 

[burn]

@lujo I don't know what do you mean by low difficulty, I have game settings set on max. That's also the reason that I don't go to Umbra until later - I can't make it across the desert.
I tried trapping the entrances at Metzger's... it aggroes guards, and plating traps somewhere else is hardly useful.

 

[lujo]

@lujo I don't know what do you mean by low difficulty, I have game settings set on max. That's also the reason that I don't go to Umbra until later - I can't make it across the desert.
I tried trapping the entrances at Metzger's... it aggroes guards, and plating traps somewhere else is hardly useful.

Don't do it where they can see you, trap the way over to the ruins on the right, run behind cover and shoot them / have sulik throw grenades as they come running. You do need to make a proper mine field, ofc. It so much fun I never ever did it any other way after the traps got introduced.

You can use them to trap geckos (drop beef jerky on them) and keep them distracted. This can get you through Toxic Caves.

Then you can use them in the Abbey vs the Deathclaw. You can use them vs the Raiders VERY effectively. You can use them gloriously in Vault 15 - you got to plant them out of sight and lure guys in your direction, mines and traps massacre that place. You can use them all over New Reno - you just need sneak and mind where you put them (I put them down at Modino's, I just hope phobos ended up using my wall fix for that place, it has holes in the wall that took quite a bit of fiddling to find). You can also use them in military base rather well.

Anywhere where there's a static (that is guys you want to fight are there and you can choose when to provoke them) fight, you can use them. For those situations - they're incredible. Actually, they're gamebreaking when you figure them out, there's no "overwatch" or a way to actually interfere in enemy turns in another way, from a distance. And don't get me started on explosive mines

If the mod was nothing but those mines it would be worth auto-including in any instalation. One of the best things ever modded into Fallout.

 

[burn]

Pointless. It's easier to just shoot stuff. I think last time I took out raiders without getting shot once.
(Not trying to undermine this particular aspect of the mod, just sharing my experience)

 

[lostabroad2]

I'd like to provide some feedback, too. First, thanks for the great mod, I can see that a lot of work has been put into it. But, I think it goes a bit over the top with barter. While I understand where is it coming from (original economy is screwed), the difference between "buying" and "selling" prices is simply not believable. With low barter, I get $19 for an AP rocket. And I can buy it back for about $2300. That's over 2 orders of magnitude. I'd rather shove that rocket up the merchant's ass. For free. That's more sane, I can roleplay that. I can't roleplay being so dumb as to be overcharged 100 times. Anyway, that's just my take on the default barter configuration (which I adjusted and now playing happily)...

I agree with this. The problem is the default barter.ini hasn't been sufficiently playtested. There were significant flaws in the math and there were trading consequences which the designer didn't foresee. I spent time playtesting different areas of the game on normal mode using different charisma and barter settings and came up with a barter.ini that will work with a much greater range. To fully appreciate it you'd still need to remove all NPCs from your party to base trading on the Chosen One's abilities. Failure to do this artificially boosts barter skill to 50 with Sulik and 80 with Cassidy. It would be better if the mod treated transactions in this way as the default unless the player specifically chose an option to play with the original 'free bonuses'. I've put this .ini file in a .rar for anyone who wants to try it. (you would need to rename the original barter.ini file to something else and change my barter20.ini file to barter.ini.

 

[burn]

Just want to clarify something - is EcCo supposed to be used with YAAM?

 

[NovaRain]

Just want to clarify something - is EcCo supposed to be used with YAAM?

AFAIK EcCo already uses YAAM.

> AMMO:
- AP and FMJ do less base damage then JHP (unarmored critters), but is very effective against armored targets (thanks to YAAM)

 

[burn]

AMMO:
- AP and FMJ do less base damage then JHP (unarmored critters), but is very effective against armored targets (thanks to YAAM)

Yes I read that, that's why I'm asking.

The thing is that I find the Morton brothers rather impossible. I had to switch to Glovz's formula to have any real chance.

 

[phobos2077]

AMMO:
- AP and FMJ do less base damage then JHP (unarmored critters), but is very effective against armored targets (thanks to YAAM)

Yes I read that, that's why I'm asking.

The thing is that I find the Morton brothers rather impossible. I had to switch to Glovz's formula to have any real chance.

And what is YAAM has to do with that? To my knowledge, it only really affects AP ammo. Normal ammo should mostly work the same.

 

[burn]

And what is YAAM has to do with that? To my knowledge, it only really affects AP ammo. Normal ammo should mostly work the same.

Well they have AP ammo. But that's not what I'm asking, I just to confirm that "rebalance" is balanced upon YAAM, is that correct?

 

[Magnus]

And what is YAAM has to do with that? To my knowledge, it only really affects AP ammo. Normal ammo should mostly work the same.

Well they have AP ammo. But that's not what I'm asking, I just to confirm that "rebalance" is balanced upon YAAM, is that correct?

If it's the guy with the HK G11 or G11E you're talking about, he has 4.7mm Caseless, which isn't defined as AP in YAAM. It's just insanely good.

 

[J_Fred]

Yeah, the 4.7mm weapons are quite deadly using YAMM. Which is fine, considering how rare the ammo is. However I usually edit the damage to be 1/1, I think it's 3/2 (150% damage) using YAMM.

I don't like base ammo to have a damage modifier, as it throws off the gun damage. If it's shotgun slug ammo or AP ammo I don't mind the damage reduction, but for something that's used in 3 guns and has no alternative variants (4.7mm), there's no reason for it to have a damage modifier, imo. It makes comparing the guns more difficult. The 2mm EC ammo is another offender.

 

[Magnus]

Yeah, the 4.7mm weapons are quite deadly using YAMM. Which is fine, considering how rare the ammo is. However I usually edit the damage to be 1/1, I think it's 3/2 (150% damage) using YAMM.

I don't like base ammo to have a damage modifier, as it throws off the gun damage. If it's shotgun slug ammo or AP ammo I don't mind the damage reduction, but for something that's used in 3 guns and has no alternative variants (4.7mm), there's no reason for it to have a damage modifier, imo. It makes comparing the guns more difficult. The 2mm EC ammo is another offender.

YAAM does nothing to change the damage mod of 4.7mm, it is and has always been 3/2. It looks like I was wrong about it not being armor-piercing though, as YAAM gives it a -7 DT mod, which I find absolutely ballistic. No wonder you're having trouble with the Mortons, they've got ammo that renders anything short of Power Armor completely useless, AND adds 50% damage.

You can read more about the mod here: http://falloutmods.wikia.com/wiki/YAAM_(Yet_Another_Ammo_Mod)

 

[phobos2077]

This mod only uses YAAM formula, not the stats, so it's no use looking for them at the YAAM page. Damage mod for 4.7mm is 1/1 and DR/DT mod is 8 which is slightly better than 7.62 and can practically ignore early pieces of armor.

I should probably make proper spreadsheet with all weapon and ammo stats and all formulas in, to properly compare weapons. Too bad I didn't thought about it before

 

[burn]

I think 4.7 actually have 10 DT in EcCo. So even pumping full of psycho doesn't help. But, it's not the only difficulty - there are flamers, caws, etc.

 

[phobos2077]

I think 4.7 actually have 10 DT in EcCo. So even pumping full of psycho doesn't help. But, it's not the only difficulty - there are flamers, caws, etc.

It is 8, not 10. I looked at the prototypes. There was various calculations and considerations made when assigning DT values to ammo types, but it was a long time ago. I guess I need to recheck those calculations. Maybe some armor stat tweaks might be necessary.
Note that 4.7 was intended as a late game caliber - it completely ignores Leather Armor and Combat Armor gives only 20% resistance against it.

 

[burn]

It is 8, not 10. I looked at the prototypes. There was various calculations and considerations made when assigning DT values to ammo types, but it was a long time ago. I guess I need to recheck those calculations. Maybe some armor stat tweaks might be necessary.
Note that 4.7 was intended as a late game caliber - it completely ignores Leather Armor and Combat Armor gives only 20% resistance against it.

Yes, sorry, I got confused. I actually meant 14mm.
4.7 is only carried by Frog, and his band isn't much of a problem. His brothers are.

 

[drages]

I am playing the mod and now i am at level 12.

This mod (mods with 2.3.3) is hard. Very hard. At beginning, before i find a ranged weapon (Kalamath 10 mm pistol), it was a nightmare fighting against geckos. Mostly i kited and sulik killed them. If you are not good at unarmed/melee, until that pistol you just die horrible. After pistol, at least i could help sulik to kill something but still golden geckos are just kiting. Getting an metal jacket was so hard even you learn how to do it, an it was not saving lives.

Barter... this is realy unbalanced. As i said i am level 12 and i could not buy a simple thing even with Cossidy at party. My barder sucks yes it was about 15 but as above mentioned Sulik should make it 50 and Cos 80.. so even the prices are so crazy for 80 barter, it's not good. My money goes mostly for direct payment like learning new craftings, quest helping, updates. I use the traders only for turning useless things to money. The funny part is that junk becomes usefull for crafting after i sell them..

For ammo and other things i became a thief and try to rob everyone mostly for ammo. Even at 100 stealing i fail lot and saving/loading became boring.

I just chase the storyline so i don't go far places but still i think very powerless against enemies. What do i do wrong? Any advises please? (I am someone who played this game when it released and finished about 3 times.)

 

[burn]

@drages well you don't have to fight any geckos until you get the pistol.
As for barter, it's all in barter.ini, try to tinker with it and see what prices suit you. Or try the ini attached earlier. I, for one, don't quite understand the notion to change both buying and selling prices. There's no "buying" and "selling", it's all barter. So I change all coefficients for selling to 1.

 

[drages]

well you don't have to fight any geckos until you get the pistol.
As for barter, it's all in barter.ini, try to tinker with it and see what prices suit you. Or try the ini attached earlier. I, for one, don't quite understand the notion to change both buying and selling prices. There's no "buying" and "selling", it's all barter. So I change all coefficients for selling to 1.

Even with pistol it's very hard to kill that many golden geckos. The 10 mm bullets won't be enough for sure for Kalamath quests and Toxic Cave. I will use the new barter file above. I am modding another game for months so maybe i will try to figure out this game later.

I like to play as a sharpshooter. But i am planning to start this mod a melee user, so i can make more damage without losing much ammo. BUT i fear against burst weapon using enemies. As i see a short range burst can kill some one so fast. At my playing time i saw that even hunting rifle ammo is so few.

Can you give any advise?

This is a great mod by the way, dont get me wrong about this.

And to Phobos:

I read some pages of this topic and i saw that you lose motivation for not having many people playing this mod. I am modding Xenonauts for months as my first modding project and i worked on that so long and very hard. I can understand you very well. Your motivation goes lower and lower and you want to stop somewhere. PLEASE do not do this. This game is a true classic and won't die. So the mods will make it live forever.

This game likes to Baldurs Gate and Baldurs Gate 2 modded with BG 1 and even Torment maps. So you can make this game much more then it's with using Fallout 1 maps i think. J_Fred's crafts are looking very nice too.

Please don't lose your motivation. We are at your back!