Electionary systems

[Sander]

Several Dutch parties want to change the Dutch electionary system(which is now simply representative. ie. you get a number of seats in the parliament according to the number of votes you get). Some want a more regional system(ie. you get the most votes in a region, and you get a seat), some want a mixture of the two, one wants a two-party system(Well, according to NRC Handelsblad anyway. Why, Wouter Bos, are you completely screwing up the PvdA?). Since this came up here, I wanted to ask you guys how you feel about electionary systems..

 

[Brother None]

I don't think you're completely correct on the Dutch movement towards changing the electoral system

The regional elections shouldn't, according to all parties' wishes, elect the parliament.

Rather a number of parties are pushing for an elected premier, which is stupid in any case, elected by way of the electoral college, which is even dumber.

Wouter Bos is just dumbfuckshit

In any case, we've seen how the electoral college can wreak havoc with a proper democracy, and even if it wasn't essentially flawed, the electoral college was designed to be used in countries with large populations (because of the issues in relations between government and the people).

Like with so many things, the Dutch government does not comprehend that "good in the US" automatically equals "good in the Netherlands". The quality of the electoral college in the US asides, it would so not work in any smaller country.

PS: NRC fucking Handelsblad?

 

[Sander]

PS: NRC fucking Handelsblad?

NRC is a good quality newspaper. The only problem it has is that it's a right-wing liberal paper. But just quality-wise, it's probably the best newspaper in the Netherlands. Well, together with Trouw, anyway.

Besides, I was delivering the newspaper for a friend of mine during the holidays. So I got to take one home every day. Wooooh.

Regional elections: D66 wants a mixed system(75 seats max from regional elections, with a minimum number of votes for a seat, so that seats can remain. The remaining seats(plus the 75 that aren't elected through regional elections anyway) will then be taken according to the national vote). Wouter Bos wants a two-party system(What the fuck??). Most parties, except for maybe the SGP, ChristenUnie, GroenLinks and SP, want a change in the electionary system, because they feel that politics is too far removed from the citizens. This is one way of changing that.

 

[Murdoch]

I'm starting to think there's something to this whole parliamentray thing. Electoral colleges suck ass. I feel like I'm throwing my vote away every November.

And Kharn, your post says that the US electoral college is better than every other system, is that what you meant?

Like with so many things, the Dutch government does not comprehend that "good in the US" automatically equals "good in the Netherlands". The quality of the electoral college in the US asides, it would so not work in any smaller country.

 

[MrMarcus]

I've always liked the percentage-based representative system I think the UK has. (seats in a region are divided up on percentage of votes gained amongst parties) I think that's a lot fairer than the Representative election system the US currently uses for it slower house.

 

[Brother None]

And Kharn, your post says that the US electoral college is better than every other system, is that what you meant?

Like with so many things, the Dutch government does not comprehend that "good in the US" automatically equals "good in the Netherlands". The quality of the electoral college in the US asides, it would so not work in any smaller country.

It didn't say the electoral college is better than any other system

It says that the Dutch government thinks it's better because it's used in America (our government can be pretty dumb-shit)

And what I meant with the last sentence is that the electoral college might work in the US, arguably, but it won't in countries of smaller sizes, like the Netherlands

I'm not a big fan of the electoral college. Xotor and me had some interesting discussion on the subject, too

And Sander, I wouldn't be too worried, it's just the waves of Fortuynism, it'll pass...maybe

PS: ah right, wrong wording. "Like with so many things, the Dutch government does not comprehend that "good in the US" automatically equals "good in the Netherlands" should read
"Like with so many things, the Dutch government does not comprehend that "good in the US" does not equal "good in the Netherlands"."

 

[Sander]

I've always liked the percentage-based representative system I think the UK has. (seats in a region are divided up on percentage of votes gained amongst parties) I think that's a lot fairer than the Representative election system the US currently uses for it slower house.

THe problem I have with that is that it's basedc on regional percentages, instead of nationwide percentages. This can make for some really weird results, and it can lead to minorities getting fucked over more easilyu, sicne it'll be harder for their parties to get any seats.

PS: Kharn, your own SP wants an elected president as well. (http://www.sp.nl/partij/theorie/program/02democratie.stm ) . WHat do you think of that? Personally, I think it's rather useless to run elections for a president, when we have the queen to act as president. SHe does get way too much money, and so do her family members, though.

 

[Brother None]

PS: Kharn, your own SP wants an elected president as well. (http://www.sp.nl/partij/theorie/program/02democratie.stm ) . WHat do you think of that? Personally, I think it's rather useless to run elections for a president, when we have the queen to act as president. SHe does get way too much money, and so do her family members, though.

Uhm, my own? I'm not a member of the SP, I just occasionally work for them and usually vote for them (since my mom's on the list, I consider that common curtousy, even if I don't mostly agree with having the SP as a good counter-balance).

and you forget that the SP also wants to remove the queen, which would indeed make a president useful, n'est pas?

Anyway, having a seperately elected president who runs the government and seperately elected 2nd chambre = t3h bad idea, just as bad as having a seperately elected mayor and council. You get pretty big and badly working conflicts of power when you don't have a constitution adapted to two powerhouses (like countries like the US do)

 

[Sander]

Uhm, my own? I'm not a member of the SP, I just occasionally work for them and usually vote for them (since my mom's on the list, I consider that common curtousy, even if I don't mostly agree with having the SP as a good counter-balance).

Meh, you vote for them, your dad's the man behind sp.nl, and your mom's on that list. Methinks that's enough to call it "your own".

and you forget that the SP also wants to remove the queen, which would indeed make a president useful, n'est pas?

My point was that that was unnecessary and would simply complicate things.
ie. Why not leave the queen in place.

Anyway, having a seperately elected president who runs the government and seperately elected 2nd chambre = t3h bad idea, just as bad as having a seperately elected mayor and council. You get pretty big and badly working conflicts of power when you don't have a constitution adapted to two powerhouses (like countries like the US do)

Very true.
Unless you're saying that mayors and city councils should not be elected(at all), in which case I must disagree.

 

[Brother None]

ie. Why not leave the queen in place.

Man, that's so archaic and stupid it's not even funny

The queen has several constituional rights, duties and abilities without any reason beyond "she's the queen". You don't think that's a little retarded?

Notice also how an elected president would not have the same functions as the queen, but would have more powers

Unless you're saying that mayors and city councils should not be elected(at all), in which case I must disagree.

Elect the council, let them chose a mayor. The current system is ass-backwards, and the upcoming system isn't brilliant either. I smell trouble, but meh.

 

[Sander]

Man, that's so archaic and stupid it's not even funny

The queen has several constituional rights, duties and abilities without any reason beyond "she's the queen". You don't think that's a little retarded?

Notice also how an elected president would not have the same functions as the queen, but would have more powers

I also said that the queen should be stripped of any powers she has. But having a monarchy means that you have something to bind people together that is more tangible than just the notion of the Netherlands. It also means that you have a queen to do all the fancy(ie. non-important) state visits.
Furthermore, an elected president would needlessly complicate things. Personally, I see no reason why to kick her out(though her pay should be lessened by quite a bit).

Elect the council, let them chose a mayor. The current system is ass-backwards, and the upcoming system isn't brilliant either. I smell trouble, but meh.

Then I understood you correctly.
ANd yes the current system(Elect the council, let a group of completely seperate people select the mayor) sucks.
Ehmm....what IS the upcoming system?

 

[Brother None]

I also said that the queen should be stripped of any powers she has. But having a monarchy means that you have something to bind people together that is more tangible than just the notion of the Netherlands. It also means that you have a queen to do all the fancy(ie. non-important) state visits.
Furthermore, an elected president would needlessly complicate things. Personally, I see no reason why to kick her out(though her pay should be lessened by quite a bit).

The monarchy is outdated and has no right to exist. If you strip it of all power it just becomes hollow, which is very painful (see...Sweden, I think)

An elected president wouldn't necessarily replace the Queen, tho', and hence I don't think a president and queen can't co-exist.

Would it have a use? No. Meh.

ANd yes the current system(Elect the council, let a group of completely seperate people select the mayor) sucks.
Ehmm....what IS the upcoming system?

Current system elects the city council in a democratic way, and elects the mayor "by command of the queen"
Upcoming system would elect the city council in a democratic way and elect the mayor (who then choses his staff) directly in another seperate election

 

[Sander]

Would it have a use? No. Meh.

Exactly my point.

Current system elects the city council in a democratic way, and elects the mayor "by command of the queen"
Upcoming system would elect the city council in a democratic way and elect the mayor (who then choses his staff) directly in another seperate election

...

Silly?

 

[Big T]

If you strip it of all power it just becomes hollow, which is very painful (see...Sweden, I think)

And the UK.
Though personally i agree with you, Monarchies are out of date. The whole idea of (most) monarchies is that the royal family are somehow "Better" (usually chosen by God (or whatever deity is popular at the time of their inception))than other people, which just doesn't fit in with democracy