Europe: A Benchmark for Social Tolerance
- Thread starter «ºTone Caponeº»
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PsychoSniper
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Makes sense.
You want to live there, you should be able to speak the language.
You want to live there, you should be able to speak the language.
requiem_for_a_starfury
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Hah that makes me laugh, especially this week in the UK when a fast food establishment is reported to be up before the race relations board for asking it's staff to speak English while at work.
PsychoSniper
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
requiem_for_a_starfury said:
Well, I do belive that that they have grounds for telling the Govt to fuck off.
It's a reasonable proposal, I guess, though I understand why immigrants would be disgruntled by it. I wonder what Sander thinks.
Makes sense to me as well, as long as they don't forbid people to speak their native language as well. You never know...
I agree, too. I think if you want to live somewhere, you should at least try to learn a/the local language/etiquette; if not for practical reasons, then at least as common courtesy (assuming you're going to be talking to the locals).
That's why I'm never going to move anywhere.
And of course, ignorance of the law is never an excuse anywhere in the world.
That's why I'm never going to move anywhere.
And of course, ignorance of the law is never an excuse anywhere in the world.
John Uskglass
Venerable Relic of the Wastes
This is a big move in the right direction.
*shrugs* For as far as I know this has already been in place in most countries, here it has for a while anyway. Just a European Union approval of it.
And yes, Tone, this is a Benchmark for Social Tolerance. You cannot expect people to move to take advantage of a countries position and wealth without trying to integrate yourself into that country. It would, of course, be best if this were practically possible, but it isn't, for rather obvious reasons.
And yes, Tone, this is a Benchmark for Social Tolerance. You cannot expect people to move to take advantage of a countries position and wealth without trying to integrate yourself into that country. It would, of course, be best if this were practically possible, but it isn't, for rather obvious reasons.
Article said:
The man who sent these deaththreats was a white Flemish man, though. He was an Islam convert, though, but as far as I know forced religious conversion is not a part of the EU's integration plan.
Now, even though I usually am a forefighter of individual rights, I agree with this plan. Not giving (or forcing) immigrants the chance to learn the tongue and customs of their new country is sentencing them to a life of social marginalisation and living in ghetto's.
It's for the best.
Sander said:
Agreed! The U.S. has been doing it (somewhat) for a long time. Of course, there is a big problem with all this. Those of other cultures will integrate in a bit, but it is only natural for them to stick together so this is a help, but definitely not the solution.
Look at the U.S., where the neighborhoods in big cities tend to have one ethnicity (i.e. China Town). This really happens in the Middle East. You'll have communities of only TCNs (Third Country Nationalists, usually they come from the South East Asia area-Indonesia, Malaysia, etc...)
welsh
Junkmaster
True, but the interesting thing about american ethnic ghettos is that they usually don't live very long.
Chinatown is something of an exception, but even there it's not that outstanding. Chinatown has grown over it's historic boundaries and has now consumed virtually all of Little Italy. In New York, parts like the Bowery- an Irish ghetto, and Germantown have died out while Sheepshead Bay in Brooklyn became a haven for Eastern Europeans and Jews. Likewise you see ghettos in Los Angeles spring up around new immigrants- Little Saigon.
So the question becomes why do some ethnicities stay concentrated and well defined while others become part of the national fabric of the society.
Some groups remain economically and socially marginalized- blacks and hispanics in the US. Others are highly defined by culture and language- orthodox jews and many asian groups for instance.
But most are able to branch out into the rest of society. Those of middle eastern descent, eastern european descent, most asians and many latinos for that matter tend to move out of the ghettos and into the melting pot of society, usually over the course of 1-3 generations.
Why? It's not because Americans don't discriminate. We do. But theoretically we don't have a system of law which creates the legal basis of instittuionalized discrimination. But I think there is a different matter- the notion of national identity in the US fosters the notion of an "immigrant culture". For example, kids are regularly taught in schools that most of their forefathers come from non-WASP roots.
Chinatown is something of an exception, but even there it's not that outstanding. Chinatown has grown over it's historic boundaries and has now consumed virtually all of Little Italy. In New York, parts like the Bowery- an Irish ghetto, and Germantown have died out while Sheepshead Bay in Brooklyn became a haven for Eastern Europeans and Jews. Likewise you see ghettos in Los Angeles spring up around new immigrants- Little Saigon.
So the question becomes why do some ethnicities stay concentrated and well defined while others become part of the national fabric of the society.
Some groups remain economically and socially marginalized- blacks and hispanics in the US. Others are highly defined by culture and language- orthodox jews and many asian groups for instance.
But most are able to branch out into the rest of society. Those of middle eastern descent, eastern european descent, most asians and many latinos for that matter tend to move out of the ghettos and into the melting pot of society, usually over the course of 1-3 generations.
Why? It's not because Americans don't discriminate. We do. But theoretically we don't have a system of law which creates the legal basis of instittuionalized discrimination. But I think there is a different matter- the notion of national identity in the US fosters the notion of an "immigrant culture". For example, kids are regularly taught in schools that most of their forefathers come from non-WASP roots.
PsychoSniper
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Yeah, americans have ancestories from all over.
On my fathers side, from colonists in the early 1700s, on my mothers side all the great grandparents were russian imigrants.
On my fathers side, from colonists in the early 1700s, on my mothers side all the great grandparents were russian imigrants.
All of my grandparents come from other countries.
My dad's dad from Italy. My dad's mom from Lithuania. My mom's dad from Ireland and my mom's mom from Canada (Quebec).
Welsh, I'm not familiar with most of the big cities, but I know in El Paso, where it is about 75-80% Hispanic, there are basically pockets of caucasians. Some areas of the city are way more caucasian than others, so it is definitely something that applies to all ethnicities.
Something else that is interesting to me is South Korea. There were some areas of the country where everyone could speak English (from the senior citizens to the younger children) and there were some areas where you couldn't find anyone who spoke English...and it wasn't just being near military installations either (though that was definitely the highest concentration of English speaking Koreans).
My dad's dad from Italy. My dad's mom from Lithuania. My mom's dad from Ireland and my mom's mom from Canada (Quebec).
Welsh, I'm not familiar with most of the big cities, but I know in El Paso, where it is about 75-80% Hispanic, there are basically pockets of caucasians. Some areas of the city are way more caucasian than others, so it is definitely something that applies to all ethnicities.
Something else that is interesting to me is South Korea. There were some areas of the country where everyone could speak English (from the senior citizens to the younger children) and there were some areas where you couldn't find anyone who spoke English...and it wasn't just being near military installations either (though that was definitely the highest concentration of English speaking Koreans).
PsychoSniper said:
And know the society, customs, etc. and basically have some reason for living there other than "it's not Country X". It is pretty bad when most immigrants usually tend to use the new citizenship as not some new life in a new land, but as a get-rich-quick scheme.
I have no sympathies for people like that. That includes in particular the stupid Mexican immigrants who can't bother to learn the driving laws and somehow end up with a license, a common flood in the entire SW US.
The only reason why you don't really see too many of those videos on America's Police Chases, despite how insane many of them are, because a "native-born minority citizen" car thief in LA is more politically correct than pulling over that Latino because they have no fucking clue about the transit laws and the language, and were driving up a one-way street.
Catering to different languages is a courtesy, nothing more. It should NOT be required or even expected to be tolerated universally unless it is part of the culture. Having a citizenship test in a foreign language is pure bullshit and defeats the purpose. If you want citizenship in a country, spend some fucking effort and learn the language first. It is just a small step towards becoming a citizen of that country.
(Note: there are extenuating circumstances such as political and other refugee status, but the "street trash immigrant" attitude is causing nothing but problems when their roped-off ghetto sections rub against each other. Yes, that immigrant who owns a small store and works hard to make a living should have a place in society. Immigrants who come to any country for the sole intention of soaking up welfare programs should be shot.)
The Vault Dweller
always looking for water.
I actually think Europe is standing up for itself...I dont feel its discrimination...its like required knowledge for life to know how to speak the local language. Otherwise the people become a burden to the country's they go to live in...
My Mom and Grandpa learned English BEFORE moving the to USA. These people can do it. Although I hate to stereotype them as simply being lazy or inconsiderate.
Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
My Mom and Grandpa learned English BEFORE moving the to USA. These people can do it. Although I hate to stereotype them as simply being lazy or inconsiderate.
Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
quietfanatic
Ancient One
This is obvious. Having little enclaves of radically different cultures will just cause trouble. One should not necessarily know the language when they come, but they must learn it as soon as possible. This goes for other customs as well. There shouldn't be 'colonies' of people looking for opportunity, who don't become part of their new society.
The reason why Australia works so well as a multicultural society is that while we are apathetic, we are very tolerant. This is possible because within 3 generations, almost all traces of the original culture are gone with most groups. Although they may keep some of the old traditions and rituals, these are mostly reduced to novelty. Vitally, they think like Australians and are indistinguishable from anyone else. This is a bit sad, but it creates a free, happy and egalitarian society with shared values and culture. It is really assimilation, but people feel more comfortable by calling it integration.
People have to take an oath/affirmation of allegiance to gain citizenship e.g. 'whose democratic beliefs I share and rights and liberties I respect' as well as have money, unless it is for humanitarian reasons of course. They are legally bound to becoming Australian, although it is far milder than the extremes of the White Australia policy.
Australia is in a much better state than many European countries in regards to immigration because we choose most of the immigrants, chiefly middle-class professionals who bring only benefits to the country. We are able to do this because we have the Great Barrier Reef and isolation to protect us from the majority of the desperate economic migrants that plague, for example, Spain. The Liberal (conservative actually) government is too harsh on asylum seekers, putting children in detention, even when most are eventually found to be genuine refugees. Hopefully this will stop and people will be happy just with more coastal patrol measures (even though our illegals are only a handful). As we have a strong economy and small population, there is far less crime amongst new immigrants. Unemployment in Australia is at an all time low of 5.4%, and consequently there is less reason for any sort of racial tension.
I refer to myself as a Euromongrel, or to be more precise, a slightly Germanic, EspanoAussiePomPoleScot. At my school of more than 400 students, we only had about 20 people with two Australian parents. In my year we had 30% Chinese, 20% Russian Jews and many others from everywhere (except Africa interestingly).
The reason why Australia works so well as a multicultural society is that while we are apathetic, we are very tolerant. This is possible because within 3 generations, almost all traces of the original culture are gone with most groups. Although they may keep some of the old traditions and rituals, these are mostly reduced to novelty. Vitally, they think like Australians and are indistinguishable from anyone else. This is a bit sad, but it creates a free, happy and egalitarian society with shared values and culture. It is really assimilation, but people feel more comfortable by calling it integration.
People have to take an oath/affirmation of allegiance to gain citizenship e.g. 'whose democratic beliefs I share and rights and liberties I respect' as well as have money, unless it is for humanitarian reasons of course. They are legally bound to becoming Australian, although it is far milder than the extremes of the White Australia policy.
Australia is in a much better state than many European countries in regards to immigration because we choose most of the immigrants, chiefly middle-class professionals who bring only benefits to the country. We are able to do this because we have the Great Barrier Reef and isolation to protect us from the majority of the desperate economic migrants that plague, for example, Spain. The Liberal (conservative actually) government is too harsh on asylum seekers, putting children in detention, even when most are eventually found to be genuine refugees. Hopefully this will stop and people will be happy just with more coastal patrol measures (even though our illegals are only a handful). As we have a strong economy and small population, there is far less crime amongst new immigrants. Unemployment in Australia is at an all time low of 5.4%, and consequently there is less reason for any sort of racial tension.
I refer to myself as a Euromongrel, or to be more precise, a slightly Germanic, EspanoAussiePomPoleScot. At my school of more than 400 students, we only had about 20 people with two Australian parents. In my year we had 30% Chinese, 20% Russian Jews and many others from everywhere (except Africa interestingly).