Europe as Superpower

welsh

Junkmaster
We were having this conversation on the Lessons of World War 2 thread and thought this might deserve a post of it's own.

Is Europe a superpower? If the EU becomes more a state an an international organization, will it be rival or superior to the US?

What do you think?

Newsweek International, June 17, 2002 p23
The Quiet Superpower. (Europe's strength internationally) Andrew Moravcsik.

Moravcsik is a professor of government at the Center for European Studies, Harvard University.

It has become commonplace to think of the United States as the world's sole superpower, and to regard other great powers, mostly in Europe, as second-raters. How often we hear Hubert Vedrine, the French foreign minister, invoke America as the "hyperpower." Academics fret about a new "American empire." Even such moderate critics of "unilateralism" as Joseph Nye of Harvard's Kennedy School call the United States a "new Rome."

The reason is easy to see. America spends more on defense than Russia, China, Britain, France, Germany, Japan and India combined. Only it can intervene at will and without assistance anywhere on the globe. Its ability to summon real-time, pinpoint air support, demonstrated in Kosovo and Afghanistan, threatens any potential aggressor and permits it to wage war almost without casualties. The radical disparity in military technology is likely to persist, and even grow, since the United States spends five times more on military R&D than all of Europe--indeed, more than any other country spends on its entire military establishment. Small wonder that security specialists speak of the "unipolar moment."

Of course, those same hard-bitten security types concede that, in economic matters, there are two superpowers. When U.S. Trade Representative Robert Zoellick meets EU Trade Commissioner Pascal Lamy at the WTO, they do so as equals. With monetary integration of Europe, we are close to a world of two major currencies: the dollar and the euro. In antitrust policy, Brussels applies its law extraterritorially, recently derailing General Electric's planned $42 billion acquisition of Honeywell International--a merger between two U.S. companies. Europe enjoys an equally dominant position in banking regulation, industrial standardization, environmental policy, telecommunications and many other economic matters.

Yet to be a superpower, critics insist, the ability to influence "hard" security issues--the politics of peace and war--matters most. And in this regard Europe is commonly considered an "economic giant but a political dwarf." Or as French commentator Dominique Moisi rather dismissively puts it, "The U.S. fights, the Europeans fund and the U.N. feeds." The constant clamor among European federalists for a "European army" only strengthens Europe's image of impotence.

This is misleading. Europeans already wield effective power over peace and war as great as that of the United States, but they do so quietly, through "civilian power." That does not lie in the deployment of battalions or bombers, but rather in the quiet promotion of democracy and development through trade, foreign aid and peacekeeping. The United States isn't simply unwilling to employ these instruments; for apparently intractable domestic reasons, it seems consistently unable to do so--even when Washington is governed by administrations less disdainful of "nation-building" than the present one. Yes, America can bomb aggressors with impunity. But when the shooting stops, only the Europeans can play the superpower in keeping the peace, reconstructing the economy and promoting democracy.

The most powerful and unique instrument of European foreign policy is the promise of membership in the EU. In the next decade, 15 new countries are likely to join. Access to the vast European market, with far fewer exceptions and limitations than under the WTO, creates a nearly irresistible impetus to political and economic reform. In 1996 in Romania, 1997 in Bulgaria, 1998 in Slovakia and 2000 in both Croatia and Serbia, authoritarian, ethnically intolerant and corrupt governments lost elections to democratic, market-oriented coalitions held together above all by the promise of eventual EU membership. Serbia and Montenegro tottered on the brink of civil war and separation until EU foreign-policy czar Javier Solana recently threatened that they would not be considered for membership unless they applied together.

When membership is infeasible or insufficient, European governments turn to foreign aid. Today they deliver more than 70 percent of all civilian development assistance--four times more than the United States. Scholars agree that foreign aid not only helps alleviate immediate human suffering, it is an essential tool to bolster domestic and international peace settlements--whether in the form of nuclear safety programs, demining operations or support for democratization. A year ago Macedonia seemed close to an ethnic conflagration; today, with an infusion of foreign aid and peacekeeping forces organized in Brussels, it appears stable. When peace seemed possible in the Middle East a decade ago, the United States turned to the Europeans to provide $3.5 billion in humanitarian, infrastructural and development aid to the Palestinian Authority. When the current crisis is over, Europe will surely be asked again to rebuild.

Trade and aid are not enough. In crisis spots as disparate as Guatemala, Eritrea, Bosnia and Afghanistan, ongoing policing by foreign peacekeepers, generally organized by the United Nations or NATO, is essential to stability. "Without third-party verification and enforcement, negotiated settlements of civil wars tend to fail," argues Prof. Barbara Walter of the University of California, San Diego. Failure, as in Rwanda, can trigger genocide. Current and prospective EU members contribute 10 times as many troops to such operations as the United States, which tends to limit its modest peacekeeping activities to areas of immediate concern--and even there, 84 percent of foreign troops in Kosovo and half those in Afghanistan are non-American, mostly from Europe. More often than not, a European nation takes the lead, as did Britain in Sierra Leone or Italy in Albania. As a result, Europeans have taken more military casualties in such operations over the past decade than has the United States.

Enlargement, foreign aid and peacekeeping: we tend to underestimate the distinctive contribution of these uniquely European instruments of "civilian power" to world peace because it is nearly invisible. Conflict prevention through democracy and development is a slow process, and we seldom perceive the conflicts thereby prevented. Yet a half century from now, historians may well look back on the post-cold- war era and conclude that Europe's quiet achievements contributed as much to world peace as did American military dominance.
 
tl;dr

I doubt it though. With all the fighting going on on the inside, this sudden huge expansion probably just to compete with NATO, the EU is more likely to collapse, sadly. I would love to experience a superpower, though. Never lived in one of those. Seriously, I doubt the EU could become a superpower as long as the US is there. Maybe as long as Russia and China are there too, but to a lesser extent.
 
No fucking way. Firstly the Euro is too high, secondly Europe has no potential for economic growth due to the universally poor welfare state, thirdly, European nationalism has negatively influenced the world in a new, special way, like God's special little snowflakes that the diffirent European nationalities are, every single decade, and that ain't neva gonna end.
 
Won't happen unless European countries can set aside their differences. Also, I'm pretty sure our nuclear arsenal would still be much higher...if you take military into consideration.
 
ConstinpatedCraprunner said:
Firstly the Euro is too high

That's called surevaluation of a currency, based on speculation for economic growth. The "too high" thing will drop in about two to three years... When the new members' markets will be more integrated to the EU economic system.

ConstinpatedCraprunner said:
secondly Europe has no potential for economic growth due to the universally poor welfare state

Eh? Poor welfare state? Do you mean poor welfare or a poor organization of welfare? In any case, there isn't a homogenous policy for welfare in the EU, it's up to the different countries.
And it's hardly either poorly organized or poor in France, for instance.

ConstinpatedCraprunner said:
European nationalism has negatively influenced the world in a new, special way, like God's special little snowflakes that the diffirent European nationalities are, every single decade, and that ain't neva gonna end.

:shock: Que? The point of forming a union is to set aside nationalism, no?

Baboon said:
I doubt it though. With all the fighting going on on the inside, this sudden huge expansion probably just to compete with NATO, the EU is more likely to collapse, sadly.

Fighting? To compete with NATO?

The EU is something a tad different than NATO. NATO is a military alliance, the EU is mainly an economic community. The "fighting" you are talking about isn't that serious. It isn't fighting that will break up the EU, ending in a secession war. The countries look for a solution that comes out positive to all of them, otherwise what's the fucking point of forming a union, hm?

Oh, yeah. The "EU is going to collapse" thing is actually older than the EU, you know? And that feeling was tons stronger when it was first formed...They said the same for the CECA (European Community for Coal and Steel). The expansion is made with a lot of caution. Just check out what's being done in the Nice conference. And, you know, the old members wouldn't make an expansion if it wouldn't profit them, would they?
 
Then don't comment. :P

No fucking way. Firstly the Euro is too high,
Economy is not static.
secondly Europe has no potential for economic growth due to the universally poor welfare state,
That does it. I've had it with your bullshit statements about the welfare state. Now, remember what I am about to say:
The Netherlands have one of the best welfare states of the world. Coincidentally, the Netherlands are also one of the most economically succesful countries around the world. "universally poor welfare state" indeed. Pah!
thirdly, European nationalism has negatively influenced the world in a new, special way, like God's special little snowflakes that the diffirent European nationalities are, every single decade, and that ain't neva gonna end.
Bwahahahaaa!!! As opposed to, say, American patriottism?
You're judging the current EU by actions committed in the past, when the EU didn't even exist. That does not make sense.

Won't happen unless European countries can set aside their differences. Also, I'm pretty sure our nuclear arsenal would still be much higher...if you take military into consideration.
Well, the article IS about military not mattering that much, you know.
Besides that, nowadays, nuclear arsenals do not matter anymore. The only reason why any country actually has a nuclear arsenal, is that they're too bloody suspicious and paranoid to throw them away.
It's not like any of the world powers will actually use nukes, since they all know that won't do them any good in the end.

That said, for the EU to become a world-power, they will have to overcome some obstacles. Most important amongst those being the obstacle of inner conflicts, and the current undemocratic way in which the EU is being ruled.
 
Sander said:
Well, the article IS about military not mattering that much, you know.
Besides that, nowadays, nuclear arsenals do not matter anymore. The only reason why any country actually has a nuclear arsenal, is that they're too bloody suspicious and paranoid to throw them away.
It's not like any of the world powers will actually use nukes, since they all know that won't do them any good in the end.

Good points, I think the only nuclear threats we have to worry about would come from terrorist organizations with 'suitcase nukes'. However, this paranoia might pay off if some big badass aliens come a knockin'... :wink:
 
Economy is not static.
France's economic growth is half ours, no one in Western Europe has a really great economy at the moment, nor any obvious way to expand
That does it. I've had it with your bullshit statements about the welfare state. Now, remember what I am about to say:
The Netherlands have one of the best welfare states of the world. Coincidentally, the Netherlands are also one of the most economically succesful countries around the world. "universally poor welfare state" indeed. Pah!
The Netherlands? Look at Germany, France......those are the two most important states, and both of thier welfare states are hopeless.

Bwahahahaaa!!! As opposed to, say, American patriottism?
You're judging the current EU by actions committed in the past, when the EU didn't even exist. That does not make sense.
You have no idea what American patriotism is. American patriotism is like early Soviet patriotism- you take pride in the values your nation was founded upon, as America was not founded on national lines, it was founed on the ideas of Democracy. Your nationalism has killed millions, and is still rampant across half the continent.

And anyone else remember the last time Europe was a world power? A third of the population of Congo goes up in dust, how viscioius the French war in Algeria was? Only thing we had is Vietnam, and hell, find some Vietnamese who don't wish that the North had lost.
 
France's economic growth is half ours, no one in Western Europe has a really great economy at the moment, nor any obvious way to expand
YOu're looking way too much at the short term, CCR. No economy is ever static, and economic situation always change. Every economy has room for growth.

Besides that, you can't really say that the USA's economy is good, can you?

The Netherlands? Look at Germany, France......those are the two most important states, and both of thier welfare states are hopeless.
This has nothing to do with the inherent badness of the welfare state, thoug, to which I've seen you comment several times.

As well as that, the USA's welfare system sucks as well.

And lastly, if you pull in Scandinavia and Belgium as well, you have a rather substantial part of the EU.

You have no idea what American patriotism is. American patriotism is like early Soviet patriotism- you take pride in the values your nation was founded upon, as America was not founded on national lines, it was founed on the ideas of Democracy.
Yet that doesn't make it any better. Nationalism still remains nationalism. Look at McCarthyism, for instance.

Plus, the USA has the more annoying brand of nationalism. People going around waving flags and shouting "USA! USA!" at every little thing are VERY annoying. ;)
Your nationalism has killed millions, and is still rampant across half the continent.
"rampant across half the continent"??
Yeah bloody right. Yes, Europe has a lot of problems with ethnic groups, however, there is a huge difference between the nationalism about which you're talking (which is nationalism based on an actual country) and the nationalism that is currently "rampant" (that's greatly exaggerated, by the way), which has a lot to do with ethnic groups, instead of countries themselves.

And anyone else remember the last time Europe was a world power? A third of the population of Congo goes up in dust, how viscioius the French war in Algeria was? Only thing we had is Vietnam, and hell, find some Vietnamese who don't wish that the North had lost.
Europe never WAS a world power. Countries in Europe have been world powers, yes, but Europe AS A WHOLE has never been a world power.
 
Your nationalism has killed millions, and is still rampant across half the continent.

Tsk Tsk.
American suprematism has killed millions and is still rampant across half the globe.

CC, ever heard of Pol Pot?
Ever heard of Agent Orange in Vietnam?
Ever heard of Pinochet?
Ever heard of the Irani Shah?
Suharto? Indonesia? Ring a bell?

*pops patriotic bubble*

The Netherlands? Look at Germany, France......those are the two most important states, and both of thier welfare states are hopeless.

That's odd. You must have mistaken "Polish" with French. I lived in Paris for a year, as I stated in another thread, and lived "on welfare". Can't remember starving nor living with roaches, sorry.

France's economic growth is half ours, no one in Western Europe has a really great economy at the moment, nor any obvious way to expand

Yeah, well, nothing comparable to today's US shining economy. Thanks for ignoring my previous post, too.

*Grumbles*
 
Wooz69 said:
Tsk Tsk.
American suprematism has killed millions and is still rampant across half the globe.

CC, ever heard of Pol Pot?
Ever heard of Agent Orange in Vietnam?
Ever heard of Pinochet?
Ever heard of the Irani Shah?
Suharto? Indonesia? Ring a bell?

*pops patriotic bubble*

Don't forget North Korea.

CCR, I doubt any Vietnamese person today wishes North Vietnam had lost. You went there, fucked up the country, and left leaving a lot of fucked up things. I think that's mainly what's bothering them today.

The French welfare system used to be ok, but it's degrading rapidly.

And I remember analysts saying the US' economy had never been so bad since, well, ever.
 
What analyst are you talking about Baboon?

I'm not saying the U.S. economy is perfect, but it seems to be doing very well at the moment. Aside from some stupid decisions by the current president, the economy is rock solid. The markets are doing as well now as when Bush took office, the only real difference is the surplus is gone, and the job market hasn't recovered from the September attacks.

However our welfare/healthcare system sucks more than you Europeans can imagine.

BTW: The U.N. now has become somewhat of a sham, as well as NATO when it comes to world "security" (lack of a better word). There are no other countries willing or able to put soldiers in places where bad things are happening and need a military presence. (not talking about Iraq that discussion has been beaten to death)
 
CC, ever heard of Pol Pot?
Ever heard of Agent Orange in Vietnam?
Ever heard of Pinochet?
Ever heard of the Irani Shah?
Suharto? Indonesia? Ring a bell?
Pol Pot? We hate Pol Pot. We went into Cambodia to try and get him out.
Pinochet-both great for the economy, and a better alternative to a leftist take over, which would have turned it into a Venezuala, or a Cuba, instead of being close to Brazil in terms of South American prosperity.
Irani Shah? Can you say better then the Ayatholla? Better then a leftist regiem?
Indonesia? So what? Look at what the Dutch did to the place.

Let's face it: the world is ALOT better with America as the sole power then it ever was with the balance of European powers. Everybody is, and you just can't get over the fact that your time as the home of modern civilization has ended.
 
CCR, I doubt any Vietnamese person today wishes North Vietnam had lost. You went there, fucked up the country, and left leaving a lot of fucked up things. I think that's mainly what's bothering them today.

Your flat out wrong there. South Vietnam would have gone the way of Indonesia, South Korea or Chile. You forget that a far right regiem will, eventually, become democratic, while a far left regiem won't.

Today, Korea is one of the most succesful nations in all of Asia, as is Taiwan and both of them are succesful, democratic nations because we would not let the Commies ruin it for everybody.

What about North Korea? The South has something like 200x the GDP of the North, we did a great, great job there (masterbates furuiously).


That's odd. You must have mistaken "Polish" with French. I lived in Paris for a year, as I stated in another thread, and lived "on welfare". Can't remember starving nor living with roaches, sorry.
While the people who work are taxed of everything they own to support you. That is a perfect example of a BAD welfare state.


Yeah, well, nothing comparable to today's US shining economy. Thanks for ignoring my previous post, too.
Goddamn rigth it's not. We have twice your growth.

Besides that, you can't really say that the USA's economy is good, can you?
I can. We are no longer in the boubble days, thus it is foolish to expect rapid job growth until the next boubble. And the fact remains that for the forseeable future, we have the better economy, the infanitly better military, population growth, and no scare of a rapidly increasing Muslim minority, and your EU is not even a state yet.

This has nothing to do with the inherent badness of the welfare state, thoug, to which I've seen you comment several times.
Hell yes it does. How do you think a welfare state can support itself with figures like 1.65 children born/woman (2003 est.) ? Not to mention most of them are Muslim, thus mostly relitivly poor, uneducated, and not Dutch?
Same goes for Scandanavia, and Belgium, and you cannot possibly belive for a second that any of those nations will compinsate for France/Germany sucking.

Yet that doesn't make it any better. Nationalism still remains nationalism. Look at McCarthyism, for instance.
We simply do not have anything like the ETA, or anything like it. We have nationalists, but as I said, Nationalism in America is fundementally diffirent.

Plus, the USA has the more annoying brand of nationalism. People going around waving flags and shouting "USA! USA!" at every little thing are VERY annoying.
People thinking that a bunch of future Islamorepublics thinking they can get togther to challange the most powerful nation in history is also as annoying.

"rampant across half the continent"??
Yeah bloody right. Yes, Europe has a lot of problems with ethnic groups, however, there is a huge difference between the nationalism about which you're talking (which is nationalism based on an actual country) and the nationalism that is currently "rampant" (that's greatly exaggerated, by the way), which has a lot to do with ethnic groups, instead of countries themselves.
It's called the Balkans, or Spain. Ever been?
 
ConstinpatedCraprunner said:
Pol Pot? We hate Pol Pot. We went into Cambodia to try and get him out.

Erm, yes, and the part about supporting him in the Cambodian-Vietnamese conflict?
The part about bombing refugee camps?

Pinochet-both great for the economy, and a better alternative to a leftist take over, which would have turned it into a Venezuala, or a Cuba, instead of being close to Brazil in terms of South American prosperity.

If Chile is in this current economical situation, it has far much to do with the people who wanted to get *rid* of Pinochet than his gun-taunting stooges. Next thing you'll say is that Mao was a great leader for econmy in China today.

Irani Shah? Can you say better then the Ayatholla? Better then a leftist regiem?

You're confusing the causes with the consequences here. The Ayatollah won because the population was sick with repression and excesses from a monarch supported by the US. The US didn't want to risk an evil leftist state so they continued to support the Shah at whatever means possible. Which led to more repression. Which led to more rebellion. Which led to the seizing of the power by religious freaks.

Indonesia? So what? Look at what the Dutch did to the place.

Yeah, let's nuke Tibet. So what? Look at what the Chinese did to the place.

Let's face it: the world is ALOT better with America as the sole power then it ever was with the balance of European powers.

Man, and you're the one claiming Europeans to be suprematists.

Everybody is, and you just can't get over the fact that your time as the home of modern civilization has ended.

:shock: You know, it's pretty silly to claim that modern civilization is something anybody can keep inside a box, hide it under a bed and claim it his possesion.


Quote:
That's odd. You must have mistaken "Polish" with French. I lived in Paris for a year, as I stated in another thread, and lived "on welfare". Can't remember starving nor living with roaches, sorry.

While the people who work are taxed of everything they own to support you. That is a perfect example of a BAD welfare state.

It's the basis on how welfare works everywhere. Anyways, it is only temporary. After working an amount of years, you get a 1 year "sponsoring" by the government to find a job that suits you. Of course, during the years you work, you contribute to the tax.

In any case, it's hardly the reason of economical stagnation. France doesn't have an unemployment rate THAT high to stop it.

Goddamn rigth it's not. We have twice your growth.

I wasn't comparing economical strength, I was merely stating that the US economy suffers recession. And economy isn't something rock-stable, as you may know.

We simply do not have anything like the ETA, or anything like it. We have nationalists, but as I said, Nationalism in America is fundementally diffirent.

Buahahahahaha!
Sorry.
Ku Klux Klan? The World Church of the Creator? Noo, nothing like that. No sir.

Nationalism is Nationalism. It's an idea, not the result of an idea on a society. It can't be fundamentally different, it may be apparently different.

Plus, the USA has the more annoying brand of nationalism. People going around waving flags and shouting "USA! USA!" at every little thing are VERY annoying.

People thinking that a bunch of future Islamorepublics thinking they can get togther to challange the most powerful nation in history is also as annoying.

I agree with you, but that doesn't mean either is justified.
 
Sander, American patriotism has done far less damage, than European nationalism. To argue otherwise is idiotic.

Also, I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I prefer waving flags and shouting "USA!" to waving guns and shouting "Sieg Heil!"

I also find it not only annoying, but also ignorant, whenever someone starts a conversation about something, people somehow, someway, find a way to bash America. For Pete's sake, knock it off! "Your country has been partially responsible for the death of many..." You're fucking point? What makes you think we are the only ones? Don't see you bitching about Stalin, or Mao, or Hirohito, or how England appeased Hitler or how the European countries sought out to destroy Germany. Instead of rebuilding it and making peace, Europe paved the way for another war. Don't preach to me about patriotism or nationalism when Europe can't pull their heads out of their asses and figure out how to get along or put aside religous differences. I'm all for Europe uniting. Makes a better, more peaceful world and a strong ally, if they decide to do so.

P.S. Why should patriotism have to be justified? If I feel like singing the Star-Spangled Banner, or shooting fireworks, or salute the flag, or shout "USA!" while waving a flag, does it need to be justified? I'm not hurting anyone. Like I said, better than waving guns and searching for Jews or Muslims to kill.
 
Paladin Solo said:
Also, I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I prefer waving flags and shouting "USA!" to waving guns and shouting "Sieg Heil!"

It's the same thing, and both are condemnable. In any case the EU isn't the next Reich.

Tell me, who're the real patriots? The Archie Bunker slobs waving flags, or the people with the guts to fight for a real change?

Europe paved the way for another war. Don't preach to me about patriotism or nationalism when Europe can't pull their heads out of their asses and figure out how to get along or put aside religous differences

Uh, you're talking about the Balkans. Not the EU candidates. Hasn't been a religious war in Europe since... hmmm... hmmm.... dunno. 16th century?

I'm all for Europe uniting. Makes a better, more peaceful world

Well, at least a part of your post isn't too bad :twisted:
 
Wooz69 said:
It's the same thing, and both are condemnable. In any case the EU isn't the next Reich.

I know that, I was just making some reference, not applying Europe is a bunch of nazi states. Plus, patriotism can be compared to nationalism, but it isn't the same thing. Patriotism can take many forms, I prefer peaceful, unless some terrorists were to go destroy our national icons and kill thousands of people. Nationalism, on the other hand,

Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination

Patriotism,

Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country. --Berkley.

Tell me, who're the real patriots? The Archie Bunker slobs waving flags, or the people with the guts to fight for a real change?

Common sense says the slob...kiddin'

Uh, you're talking about the Balkans. Not the EU candidates. Hasn't been a religious war in Europe since... hmmm... hmmm.... dunno. 16th century?

I was refering to the Balkans yes. But I was sayin that Europe as a whole should be held responsible for that. I was, at the same time, saying that Europe gets into a lot of shit because of religion, maybe not with eachother.
 
Erm, yes, and the part about supporting him in the Cambodian-Vietnamese conflict?
The part about bombing refugee camps?
If by refugee camps you mean NVA camps, which they where, I'd agree with you.
Pot was a communist. Kissinger, Nixon nor LBJ would never support him.

If Chile is in this current economical situation, it has far much to do with the people who wanted to get *rid* of Pinochet than his gun-taunting stooges. Next thing you'll say is that Mao was a great leader for econmy in China today.
No idea what you are talking about. He instituted a FREE MARKET ECONOMY.

You're confusing the causes with the consequences here. The Ayatollah won because the population was sick with repression and excesses from a monarch supported by the US. The US didn't want to risk an evil leftist state so they continued to support the Shah at whatever means possible. Which led to more repression. Which led to more rebellion. Which led to the seizing of the power by religious freaks.
And 9/10 that practice worked. Iran is an exception. If the Ayatollah had not taken power, it is obvious to anybody not blinded by years of ignorance that they would be among the up and coming economic powers, like Korea, India, South Korea and Taiwan. Face it, most of the time American policy of installing "fascist" dictators helped the country in the long run.

Yeah, let's nuke Tibet. So what? Look at what the Chinese did to the place.
No idea what you are talking about. It was, from what I understand, mostly against the population of East Timor, which is now an independant state, and Indonesia is on the road to Democracy.

The Dutch did not even eradicate Islam in the area.

Man, and you're the one claiming Europeans to be suprematists.
They just have a hard on for when they ruled over everybody. We never offically ruled everybody, and are helping everybody out at the same time.

You know, it's pretty silly to claim that modern civilization is something anybody can keep inside a box, hide it under a bed and claim it his possesion.
America is now the fountain head of Western Civilization. Anyone want to go against that? :roll:

It's the basis on how welfare works everywhere. Anyways, it is only temporary. After working an amount of years, you get a 1 year "sponsoring" by the government to find a job that suits you. Of course, during the years you work, you contribute to the tax.
You completely ignored my point about birth rates, and rapidly growing Muslim populations. Age and the fact that the only people having kids wear headscarves was one of my main points, so counter THAT, HUH PUNK!?!

In any case, it's hardly the reason of economical stagnation. France doesn't have an unemployment rate THAT high to stop it.
France
9.1% (2002 est.)
Germany
9.8% (2002 est.)
USofA, which is alot bigger and alot more economically diverse
5.8% (2002)

:mrgreen:

I wasn't comparing economical strength, I was merely stating that the US economy suffers recession. And economy isn't something rock-stable, as you may know.
Bronze is more of a solid then an Elephant dancing on the top of a Crem Brulla (FUCK FRENCH SPELLING!)


Buahahahahaha!
Sorry.
Ku Klux Klan? The World Church of the Creator? Noo, nothing like that. No sir.

Nationalism is Nationalism. It's an idea, not the result of an idea on a society. It can't be fundamentally different, it may be apparently different.

When was the last time you had a Texan seperatist group kill 40 in the bombing of a mall? It's diffirent
And the KKK and WCotC are RACIST organizations, not Nationalist.

Heck, look at Sander's example, McCarthy. He headed the House of UnAmerican activities, in that Commies=UnAmerican, get it?
 
Back
Top