Fallout 3 - a lot deeper world building?

There are literally many people who like Fallout 3 but don't like New Vegas, what are you talking about? They call New Vegas boring because it's not a theme park that only exists for the people to go around shooting. They also complain about being locked out of quests because of faction choices.

You are still dodging the argument, nothing New Vegas does well is tied with Fallout and that's a cold hard fact.

No it isn't. You don't even list what it does better or well. You just say it is. I like New Vegas more. I think it's a better game but i could talk all day what I think the former is built on. I am just curious what I could possibly explain to you that would change your mind.

So tell me, what information could I share about my opinions and facts regarding New Vegas that would change your opinion? Then I'll happily tackle the subject.

Just tell me what you won't dismiss out of hand.
 
Just tell me what you won't dismiss out of hand.
You are the one that has been dodging the fucking argument for ages now, never once explaining why the hell is New Vegas is built from Fallout 3. Just because they are in the same bad engine with the same bad gameplay doesn't mean one was built from the other.

Explain to me why New Vegas's quest design, rpg elements, detailed worldbuidling, faction system and the many other things that have nothing to do with Fallout 3 in quality have anything to do with Fallout 3 apparently.

Outside of gameplay, New Vegas is building upon Fallout 1 and 2, not fucking Fallout 3.
 
You are the one that has been dodging the fucking argument for ages now, never once explaining why the hell is New Vegas is built from Fallout 3.

Just because they are in the same bad engine with the same bad gameplay doesn't mean one was built from the other.

Very well, Fallout: New Vegas is heavily influenced in its world building by Fallout 3. Fallout: New Vegas is heavily influenced by Fallout 3 in its invocation of the Great War, Pre-War World because the previous two games had almost no depiction of said world.

Almost all of it was invented by Bethesda in order to fit with their larger narrative about a perpetually 1950s retrofuture world with Nuka Cola, incorporation of Pre-War landmarks, cargo cults dedicated to familiar concepts, and the continued influence of Pre-War individuals. Fallout 1 and 2 are all about the post-apocalypse with the Enclave and Mariposa military bases being the sole exceptions.

Fallout: New Vegas is ALL ABOUT the contrast between the Pre-War and Post-War world with the nostalgia for the former creating Mr. House and his Strip as well as being the prevailing themes of Old World Blues, Dead Money, and Lonesome Road. It is a theme that could not exist without Fallout 3 because they invented so much of the Pre-War world and its pseudo-1950s culture for the games. Fallout and Fallout 2 had retrofuture as an aethsettic but not actual worldbuilding.

It goes further with the storytelling focus on things like Sunset Sarsaparilla, the homicidal Vaults (which were not a thing in 1 and were only mentioned briefly in 2), and the fact that Veronica and Arcade Gannon's entire questlines are about rebuttals to the depictions in Fallout 3. Even when they're made as contrasts to the handling of the brotherhood of Steel and Enclave, they're still made in direct response to Fallout 3.

New Vegas is not a sequel to just the original games but weaves the lore changes to the setting into the original 2 game's narrative to create a contrast about obsession with the past (Fallout 3) versus building a new future (Fallout 1-2).

Now answer the question -- what would it take to change your mind? Name it, please.
 
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Fallout: New Vegas is heavily influenced in its world building by Fallout 3.
No, it's not. New Vegas actually tries with world buidling, it's clear Bethesda in Fallout 3 didn't cared about world building.

Almost all of it was invented by Bethesda in order to fit with their larger narrative about a perpetually 1950s retrofuture world with Nuka Cola, incorporation of Pre-War landmarks, cargo cults dedicated to familiar concepts, and the continued influence of Pre-War individuals.
That's just flat out wrong, just wow. New Vegas doesn't even look like the 1950s retrofuture in a lot of its setting. What the fuck are you talking about?

Fallout: New Vegas is heavily influenced by Fallout 3 in its invocation of the Great War, Pre-War World because the previous two games had almost no depiction of said world.
Fallout: New Vegas is ALL ABOUT the contrast between the Pre-War and Post-War world with the nostalgia for the former creating Mr. House and his Strip as well as being the prevailing themes of Old World Blues, Dead Money, and Lonesome Road. It is a theme that could not exist without Fallout 3 because they invented so much of the Pre-War world and its pseudo-1950s culture for the games. Fallout and Fallout 2 had retrofuture as an aethsettic but not actual worldbuilding.
New Vegas does the literal opposite, what the fuck are you talking about? The theme of New Vegas is let go of the past, to move on from it and certainly not invoke it. How could you get this wrong? House and the other factions all talk about building for the future, forgetting about the great war and the nukes and everything else in the past.

Absolutely nothing you said was New Vegas building from Fallout 3, it's the actually the opposite. Obsidian really did everything they could to separate its game from Fallout 3. Again, New Vegas builds from Fallout 1 and 2, not Fallout 3.
 
New Vegas does the literal opposite, what the fuck are you talking about? The theme of New Vegas is let go of the past, to move on from it and certainly not invoke it.

Literally, this is the ending narration for House's ending.

Mr. House's Securitron army took control of Hoover Dam and the Strip, pushing both the Legion and the exhausted NCR out of New Vegas. Mr. House continued to run New Vegas his way, a despotic vision of pre-War glory.

Cassidy says as much too.

Cass lived to see Hoover Dam in its Old World glory, humming with power the likes of which the Mojave had never seen. Vegas burned brighter than ever, Securitrons filled the streets, and Cass's heart skipped... just a little. Her last words were to the Dam - and to herself. "We were going full speed ahead... but facing backwards the whole time."
 
Literally, this is the ending narration for House's ending.
Do i need to quote the fucking ending of Dead Money? Where the characters are basically looking at the camera and spelling it out? What Ulysses says at the end of Lonesome Road?

House's reliance on the past is a flaw in his character, its the devs actually criticizing people for not letting go of the past. You can see it as unintentional jab at Bethesda, how it mercilessly just over-relied in pre-war bullshit in Fallout 3 (and it hasn't stopped).

And did you read what you quoted? Cassie is mocking House and talking about "going full speed ahead", literally telling him that he should let go of the past.



Here are the many things New Vegas does well that have nothing to do with Fallout 3:

- Good worldbuilding. Don't need to explain since it has been explained many times, Obsidian actually gave a shit about how people get their basic necessities.

- Fantastic question design. Quests with multiple routes, with checks for multiple skills, so that many characters can experience quests in different ways. Fallout 3 really has nothing like this, specially nothing on this level. It's clear Obsidian was continuing the quest design from Fallout 1 and 2.

- Actual good writing and not "have you seen a middled aged man?". The gap in writing quality between both games is as wide as the Grand Canyon. There was a clear motivation to have attention to detail, something Fallout 3 doesn't have.

- Actual in-depth rpg elements. Most perks aren't boring damage increases to specific skills, they can do weird shit like in Fallout 1 and 2. Traits were brought back from Fallout 1 and 2, adding more depth to building choice.

- A speech system that isn't crap. Skill checks beyond just speech and base stats.

- An actual faction system. No longer you are forced to be the Brotherhood of Steel's bitch, you can just ignore them.

- Companions that are not one-note idiots.

- Respect for the lore and internal consistency of the series. Not cynically force a bunch of West Coast stuff into the East Coast.

- Real consequences to your actions. Being locked out of main story quests, items and other things, and not a dumb appartment or unmarked quests no one does.

New Vegas is a great game trapped in a bad game. One of the biggest what-ifs in the franchise is if New Vegas was made in an engine that wasn't complete shit.
 
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I could talk all day about the world building elements I really like but I have the feeling that if I did, it would all just be dismissed as not counting. Especially if I attempt to defend the wacky gonzo world and satire. So I wonder if anyone is actually interested in hearing any of it or all responses would be, "no, you're wrong. It sucks."

In which case, why bother?
It just feels like you're eliding any kind of specific discussion with generality whenever any critique is brought up.

And moreover it does seem like a lot of the things you invoke I wouldn't really count as a part of "worldbuilding," virtues of Fallout 3 they may be (and Fallout 3 does certainly have its virtues).
 
That's just flat out wrong, just wow. New Vegas doesn't even look like the 1950s retrofuture in a lot of its setting. What the fuck are you talking about?
You are right, but this is actually a point in Fallout 3's favor: Fallout 3 in its pre-War architecture and styles is a mix of the 1950s retrofuture, and the 1950s itself. New Vegas, on the other hand, looks almost entirely like a parallel 1950s Las Vegas. This is a massive failing of New Vegas's visual design, Fallout 3 came closer to getting it right. Really it's the closest of any of the 3D games.

New Vegas does the literal opposite, what the fuck are you talking about? The theme of New Vegas is let go of the past, to move on from it and certainly not invoke it. How could you get this wrong? House and the other factions all talk about building for the future, forgetting about the great war and the nukes and everything else in the past.

Absolutely nothing you said was New Vegas building from Fallout 3, it's the actually the opposite. Obsidian really did everything they could to separate its game from Fallout 3. Again, New Vegas builds from Fallout 1 and 2, not Fallout 3.
You can't have a theme of letting go of the past, of re-shaping the old into something new, without the past being present as the object to be negated. Fallout 3 elevated the prominence of the pre-War world in the minds of Wastelanders and indeed of the design of the Wasteland itself. The manner in which this is deployed was, in my view, largely obnoxious, unnuanced, and uninteresting, but it does lay the groundwork for what we got in New Vegas.

Just look at it like this: Fallout 3, both in its setting of audience expectation and in the software handed over to Obsidian, provided the framework of 3D Fallout meaning "Large ruined urban area and surrounding countryside, with a lot of cool set pieces and remnants of the pre-War World." That's what the new Fallout fanbase wanted, and that's what Bethesda's Gamebryo engine most easily lent itself to. Otherwise Obsidian probably would have wanted to make a top-down RPG, or perhaps an Outer Worlds-style series of smaller worldspaces spread over a large overworld map if they decided to make the shift to 3D themselves.

The sensible folks over at Obsidian (I don't know who can be credited more with the conception, Chris or Josh or someone else) thought, "Well, if we're to have an interesting pre-War urban landscape, it shouldn't really be that nuked. But why would a major urban area not be nuked?" From there arises Mr. House. And from Mr. House, we get this really interesting interplay between past and present - He's literally a mummy of the pre-War World, attempting to preserve old Vegas, but professes to want to build something new. There's an interesting contradiction there to be teased out, how can a new future be built on the model of an old world? And doesn't that kind of apply to the NCR, who we'd want to have in this game anyway? And then, for antagonist, what about those Caesar's Legion guys we toyed around with for Van Buren - they're not really like the pre-War world, but they're LITERALLY cosplaying as one.

The themes of New Vegas, Old World and New, How Can We Avoid Ancient Mistakes, Letting Go, these arise naturally from the constraints and example of Fallout 3's design. Probably the game would have been quite different (if sharing some similarities since it would have the same writers) to the New Vegas we got. I'm fairly sure it still would have been a good game, probably just as good, but different.

I think the argument "We only got FNV because of FO3!!" is a bit of a silly argument on it's face, but there are absolutely some interesting ways that Fo3 informed the building of FNV. Are those to FO3's credit? I don't really think so, but they are there and they are interesting.

You can see it as unintentional jab at Bethesda, how it mercilessly just over-relied in pre-war bullshit in Fallout 3 (and it hasn't stopped).
I do also agree with this, I think it can also be read as a critique of Fallout 3 (probably unintentional, I don't like to entertain notions of interstudio-drama)

Most perks aren't boring damage increases to specific skills, they can do weird shit like in Fallout 1 and 2.
I'm always a bit puzzled by this: While I think it was a great design decision of Obsidian to remove skill-boost perks, these weren't invented by Fallout 3, they existed in Fallout 1 and 2. They were bad in those games, they were bad in Fallout 3, and the GOAT Josh Sawyer made the wise choice of removing them.

- A speech system that isn't crap. Skill checks beyond just speech and base stats.
This isn't really a problem with the system, it's a problem with it's deployment, or perhaps quest design. Fallout 3's speech system has skill checks other than Speech and SPECIAL, they're just not used that often.

No reason to quibble with any of the other points you list out, though.
 
Well you said it better than I did, @Hardboiled Android

It just feels like you're eliding any kind of specific discussion with generality whenever any critique is brought up.

And moreover it does seem like a lot of the things you invoke I wouldn't really count as a part of "worldbuilding," virtues of Fallout 3 they may be (and Fallout 3 does certainly have its virtues).

Fair enough, you have me there.
 
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