Fallout 3. Logistics and acceptance.

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Your welcome Mirax....
I think the most important thing in Fallout is the ability to turn the screen 360 degrees, just like Commandos. This thing really bothers me. In previous Fallout, the wall were chopped when players walk behind them. Also in combat mode and one of the enemy were behind the wall what we can see is only a red line. Well this is unacceptable!! Like those Nixon Doll quest in Fallout2, I can't find the doll before someone told me it was behind Cassidy's bar. When FOT cames out, i hope this features available but still it didn't. I like if we made that Commando's style, In Commandos I you can't turn the screen but in Commando's II you can. The drawbacks were it made some people puzzled and confuse and I think some guys won't support me.

For the realtime gameplay Okay, Big Fat Mama perhaps a little bit hard, but he got's the point. Remember the X-COM series? In X-COM 1 and 2 they made that Turn Based. X-COM one (UFO enemy Unknown. The best turn based tactical games ever) is a succesful game (even Elex Media Komputindo, a well known publisher in my country specialized in computer education, published an X-COM hint book) . Then in X-COM 2 Microprose create bigger maps with more floors (X-COM 1 buildings got 3 floors and the biggest UFO got 4 floors. In X-COM 2 you got 8 floors building and in X-COM Apocalypse you got 13 floors building.) X-COM II (Terror from the deep) is better than X-COM one in graphics but more complex in the gameplay. That's why people hate them. In X-COM apocalypse they made that Real times (but you can turn that to turn based game. But it's painful playing big map games with turn based style) and it's even worse.... The other following series (the simulation X-COM Interceptor and X-COM Enforcer) even more...more...and more worse.
That's why they shouldn't make a different Fallout. Make that as simple as Fallout I and Fallout II, with better graphics and features I describe above. Add some realistic environment (such as window can be broken, Wall can be destroyed, You could shoot someone in a vehicle etc...) and more interaction with someone else.
For the conversation menu, made that like Fallout II and Fallout I. We don't need FOT style conversation (with Pic's and Speech.) and that features consume lot's of Hard Disk space.
And the most important thing in an RPG games is not the graphics, music etc.... but the Story. Make a good story (like the Fallout I and Fallout II), and a non linear storyline (because that was the real soul of Fallout).
The last but not least, please don't made a great system requirement!! Not anyone here got a good computer.... This is Fallout man! Not a 3-D FPS game!! Or Final Fantasy? We don't need a graphics that need those high tech GeForce4 3D card or a great 256 MB rams... What we need is a good RPG games....
I belive if someone in this world make a goof RPG game using Fallout II standard Engine I would buy it!! And lot of us here will buy it too!!!

Let me tell you about a software company called Bungie.... They made good games but most of them failed. Then someone else made a game based from their idea and that game achieved a great success!! Ask people do they know Marathon ? Perhaps they won't remember. Then ask them Duke Nukem 3D? Or ask people about ONI? I think they prefer Max Payne.
The Marathon II system used by Duke Nukem and ONI revolutionary system use by Max Payne. Marathon and ONI were a most advanced game in their time. The Bungie even realized that ONI is a bit advanced for a game (no machine in the year 2000 could run the original version) so they down grade that. That's why people who play ONI feels that game a bit boring.
Ask Big Fat Mama about Bungie games! I don't know more about it. He's a fanatic about Bungie games (I can't understand that!!). Let him explain that here.....

Best Regards



Bhass

And Romeo told his beloved Juliet: "Kulo Tresno Karo Sampeyan."
 
LiSeptur
"Amusing. I guess your a Mac user Mr.Bhass, or at least used to be. I will agree with you that Bungie are a very talented group of developers.(although I would really like to know more about why they signed with Microsoft. It wasn't in their best interests at all and they are still very tight lipped about it. It bothers me.)

As I was saying. Bungie are very talented and I know this is a dirty word for Marathon fans but id's DOOM did come out a fair bit before Marathon. Marathon was more advanced (with mouse look and rocket jumping) but it did come out afterwards. Very close to the release of DOOM II in fact.

Oni had a very impressive camera system I have to admit. It annoys me that most game camera's still get stuck against walls and fly up the characters anus on many ocassions.

Personally I would have to say that Myth was their most revolutionary game. It was the first 3D RTS for a start(by over a year If I remember correctly)

Bungie have unfortunately suffered at the hands of both themselves and PC hardnuts who despise Mac's. Bungie until recently have not been the best at promoting their games. Sadly, they have also been given a very hard time by hard core PC users in the past since they were primarily Mac developers.

The industry seems to be divided into two catagories at the moment. On one side you have the people pushing the industry and on the other side you have the developers who use the developements to create games that are gauranteed to sell well and have tones of advertising to back them up. Very few developers do both.

If anyone wants to get into the industry they have to decide which side they are on. Unfortunately the sides keep shifting as well and you can find yourself working for the enemy. Bungie may turn out to be a prime example of this under their new publishers.

I won't say which side we are on.

That aside I agree with you on your views of fallout. I would still like more oppinions on the matter though so If any of you guys have friends that want a say get them to do so soon. Not much time left."
 
[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Sep-20-02 AT 03:15AM (GMT)[p]Mirax again.
You shouldn't have gotten Li started on Bungie.
I might agree with the guy but the only bungie game I ever played was Oni and I didn't even notice the camera. Maybe that's why it impressed him.
If someone does know why Bungie did what they did please tell him as it's been bothering him how a developer who were sworn against microsoft ended up becomming their bitches.
As for his rant about who's side different developers are on I'd have to say raven are the company who churn out the most formulaic games without any industry advancement. As for the compnay pushing the industry.hmm........I'd have to say Epic actually now but that really depends on whether UT2003 is any good or not.
Actually speaking of UT2003. Remember that Fallout mod that was supposed to be getting done in the engine. Well it's not going to happen any more. The team that were doing it got a better offer from another group and have gone to work on a project with them instead. They wouldn't tell me what it was though. I think Li actually knows but he won't tell me. pah. Don't really care anyway. Is there a single mod for Fallout left. They all seem to die off one after the other. I tell you folks. Us fallout fans are a dying breed.
That thing he said about the fallout bible being important. We'll it is. Instead of sending a billion E-mails to whats's face. Why don't a group of you guys(the most fanatical among you) get together and write your own one. Show people that you know what your talking about and not just moaning for the sake of it.
I think this 2 people talking through one ID is confusing some of you. If it says LiSeptur on the first line it's Li. It should also have " marks. Anything else and it's me wasting your time instead.
P.S. I should probably let you know why this is going on (without giving too much away). The reason Li is being annonymous is becuase nothing has been confirmed yet and he has to deal with managers and publishers and all that crap. If it all falls through then no more needs to be said about it. If he hadn't been annonymous then if it didn't go ahead he would be in a lot of trouble from fans and the publishers for going behind their back. He's going through me to us a completely different IP. not in the same state. Not even in the same country as I'm in the old UK.
well theres not really much point to any of this and it's gaddamn half four in the morning so I'm off to bed.
 
Ahem... Now we're talking about Bungie.

Mr. Bhass always said that I was fanatics to Bungie, No I don't. It's just that they are so poorly unlucky!!

What i said about Marathon being revolutionary game to Mr. Bhass:
In Marathon, there are maps with 2 or more level at the same position. So that we can have other platform above AND below our current position. Sure, DOOM has a moving up and down, but never on the same place there are two levels with different height!! That's actually the limit of DOOM and other previous 3d game. Marathon IS the first game implementing this tech.

Technically speaking, this lil' limitation can't be easily solved. Bungie made Marathon with multiple height level ignoring their innovation. And suddenly: 3D Realms claim that their newly released Duke Nukem 3D has the first what-i've-just-said-mambo-jambo innovation!!!


Ahh, dammit, i'm going to be late for class!!!


In God we Trust
 
Big Fat Mama right!!
For you Mirax, the truth is I never saw a real Mac in my whole life!! (heh...heh...heh...). I play Oni and Myth but never Marathon (BFM urge me to buy one!! A PC version!!! But never!!!! They put Marathon in Discount Sale in my country and cut the price to quarter but HELL NO!!!)

The only good thing about Fallout Tactics is how we manage our Inventory and how do we trade. It's simpler than Fallout 2. Also FOT offers wide range of weaponry and we got more weapon choices..... And I prefer real name for guns not FO1 generic style....
 
[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Sep-23-02 AT 08:25AM (GMT)[p]> Also FOT offers
>wide range of weaponry and
>we got more weapon choices.....
>And I prefer real name
>for guns not FO1 generic
>style....

And people wonder why good games are fucked to hell in sequels and are so few to be seen anymore...

Sure, how about we just piss all of the 50's-60's sci-fi influence away and do like that idiot at PC Moron said and have it more like Blade Runner too?
 
I say this:
Fallout 3 should have:
-Better engine, which could be more versatile (ie camera angle, modder friendly, takes less CPU usage on maps)
ever tried scrolling on the maps in FOT, even tho you might have a great computer it still is crap to scroll..

-Bring back that good old feeling we had in Fallout, and that includes not having the real names on guns, cities etc..
Fallout had all those little things that made the atmosphere that is Fallout, the interface was a little...erm..how shall I put this, off on certain issues (like the inventory, bartering etc..)

-Better AI, that includes NPC AI (no one shouldn't be allowed to control the NPC, that's why they're called NPC, no player control rrr something like that...)

-And for gods sake, stay true to the Fallout story, don't put in aeroplanes, lots of vehicles that run on fuel etc..etc..

I gots more, but little time to post right about now..

Webmaster@NMA
[link:www.nma-fallout.com|No Mutants Allowed]
 
Agree with you!!
Real name for guns, not generic!!!

Just like i said before!!! Bring back the soul of Fallout...
I mean by "better NPC management" is not to control the NPC!!! But we could see their stat's and skill... I never know how much the gun skill of SUlik and Ian in the last Fallout!!!!

Just curious, in FO1 and FO2 war started because we ran out of oil supply? Then why the hell we saw an Oil pump in FAllout Tacticss!!! (for anybody who never saw it.. Check at the level when we met Rosh. It is at the north near the tower.) And why the hell the vehicle in FOT uses fuel!!! not a Micro Fusion Cell. Plus in Fallout 2 we saw a Battery station not a Gas Station. Then in FOT I saw a Gas Station filled with Gas!!!! (The one in Raider's camp. It will blew when you shot it....)
 
>Agree with you!!
>Real name for guns, not generic!!!

How the hell are you "agreeing" with him if you said real names and not generic?

>Just like i said before!!! Bring
>back the soul of Fallout...

Hard to do that when you are insisting on skullfucking the hell out of it. Does it also occur to you why no real names were used for towns in Fallout 1? Then again, weren't you the one who suggested Fastball and Rammstein for intro music? *rolls eyes*

>I mean by "better NPC management"
>is not to control the
>NPC!!! But we could see
>their stat's and skill... I
>never know how much the
>gun skill of SUlik and
>Ian in the last Fallout!!!!

Nah, just leave them to jave a bit of mystery. This isn't a Diablo min/max-athon game.

>Just curious, in FO1 and FO2
>war started because we ran
>out of oil supply? Then
>why the hell we saw
>an Oil pump in FAllout
>Tacticss!!! (for anybody who never
>saw it.. Check at the
>level when we met Rosh.
>It is at the north
>near the tower.) And why
>the hell the vehicle in
>FOT uses fuel!!! not a
>Micro Fusion Cell. Plus in
>Fallout 2 we saw a
>Battery station not a Gas
>Station. Then in FOT I
>saw a Gas Station filled
>with Gas!!!! (The one in
>Raider's camp. It will blew
>when you shot it....)

The awareness of this inconsistency almost excuses your desire to further rape Fallout.

Almost.
 
LiSeptur
"Cheers guys. That's enough for me at the moment. We gotta get some work done on this and get it all presentable to the powers that be. I'll check in on this thread from to see if any other good ideas pop out of you guys but this'll probably be the last time I post, Unless one of you says something spectacular that I just have to comment on.

Thanks for all your views and try not to kill each other or there will be no one to play this game if it actually gets made."
 
>Agree with you!!
>Real name for guns, not generic!!!
>
Guess you missed that part where I said, do not use real names on guns, cities etc.. This was one of the beauties about Fallout, aaah...good old Necropolis, remember that one? "The City of Death", wasn't it called that also ? or was that the Glow ?

Webmaster@NMA
[link:www.nma-fallout.com|No Mutants Allowed]
 
Ahem, Lemme explain this:

I and Mr. Bhass have this really cheap Internet Browsing in our college (approx. 1$ each month, unlimited access).

Unfortunately, since it's cheap, many people usei it, and the connection became slow. To counter this, we do the browsing in (mid)night, local time. Well, i think the light isn't that good (can be below 1 candela). And our eyes oftenly strains. Perhaps he can't see well that time.


In God we Trust
 
Yeah Right!!
And did you remember who urged you to buy Fallout 2???

You wouldn't be here if you don't put that ResidentEvil 2 back and buy Fallout2.

In God we Trust
 
Sorry bout that Odin and Rosh!! It's mid night!!! And the keyboard not good (that's what Big Fat Mama think to say). $1 a month! Right.......
What i mean is, give us choice. Generic is fine... But where are bow and arrow??
I think the gun problem already settled and now this is the problem....

- Turn Based or Real Time (I believe most of us said: TURN BASE!!)
- 3-D or Isomethric (Did i say Isomethric before??)
- Linear or non linear (This is a fool question i think! Everybody ask for a non linear of course...)
- 1 CD no movie or 3 CD lotsa movie (well this is a bit odd question..... I don't mind about movie. This is Fallout not FF)
- Perishable inventory or not ( i mean like in NOX or Krondor. If we use a sword or armor, everytime we hit something the armor or sword hit point decrease and some times they will destroy. My opinion is NO!!!! Keep it like fallout. I think someone once post this in this forum.)


And from what everybody says before, i think we should forgot FOT. I mean the story must be based from Fallout 2 not fallout Tactics. Let's forgot about those inconsistency (did i spell it right.) That all event in FOT (such as Great Air COnvoy, the Vault Zero and new Brotherhood) never happened.

BTW Odin, nice thing you update this forum. But i still like the old style lobby menu....
 
>Sorry bout that Odin and Rosh!! It's mid night!!! And the
>keyboard not good (that's what Big Fat Mama think to
>say). $1 a month! Right.......

No Prob, I was just correcting you..So was Rosh

>What i mean is, give us choice. Generic is fine... But
>where are bow and arrow??

Well, bow and arrow are fine, don't really see them in the Fallout setting tho..but heh, since they included Spears, why not bow and arrow..

>And from what everybody says before, i think we should forgot
>FOT. I mean the story must be based from Fallout
>2 not fallout Tactics. Let's forgot about those inconsistency
>(did i spell it right.) That all event in FOT (such as Great
>Air COnvoy, the Vault Zero and new Brotherhood) never happened.

no,no,no,no....Let's base it on Fallout 1, not 2.. They made 2 just to milk the product if you ask me, ok there were some nice things in Fallout 2, but the Fallout 1 is the mother of all Fallouts, nuff said!!

>BTW Odin, nice thing you update this forum. But i still
>like the old style lobby menu....

Thanks, I've posted a snibblet about it in the general discussion, just to get some feedback... It's easy to go back to how it was...

Webmaster@NMA
[link:www.nma-fallout.com|No Mutants Allowed]
 
" (3D):
I think that would be an improvement. I would like to be able to spin the environment and look at things from different angles. I would appreciate being able to zoom in/out though. And have option for a fairly distant zoom, not just looking over the shoulder (Warcraft III perspective I think would be adequate). If using the Neverwinter Nights engine, that would also be more than adequate."

While the NWN engine is OK for now, you have to look at all the other games coming out that are that much more beautiful. These so-called next generation graphics engines.

I'm one of the first people to throw my hands up and say, "Graphics don't make a game! Look at Chrono Trigger! Hell, look at FALLOUT!" ha.. BUT.. the point is.. to sell things, you're going to need a robust engine with high poly-counts, pixel shaders and vertex shaders, et cetera. While Neverwinter night's shadow system was beautiful, and its reflective armor was beautiful... at this point in time with the games released and to be released that use next generation graphics engines, it must be even more robust than NWN's engine.

NWN-esque would be excelent for the purposes of this game; isometric, etc. However, I still want to see a pipboy on the bottom of the screen, have a different screen for player sheets, et cetera.. instead of having them all as transparent windows.

That's the main issue I have with that reply, I agree totally with everything else put forth. At the same time, I would like to agree with something mentioned earlier in the thread, about different starting points as opposed (or even in addition to) different endings. That would be very, very, very cool.
 
" didn't agree 1st person mode when talking. The Fallout2 style menu still the best. Don't put sound or Videos cos it's big."

What's the issue with sound or videos?

I think it would be neat if, during a conversation the camera zoomed in and went to a first person view, and a panel folded up from the bottom of the screen with choice options on it.

Also, if it's a robust 3D engine, you wouldn't need a seperate, say, avi for each "talking head" .. you'd need some facial animators, yes, but that is all. It wouldn't add that much to the game size, each different animation would be a part of a script file that in total could be no more than 200kb long. The other thing with this, is it would be possible to animate -everyones- head and make -everyone-, even the regular people, have talking heads.

And with speech.. speech doesn't take up that much space anymore! ~92kbps mp3 files play speech with little-to-no distortion, you might even be able to go lower than that. That's more than 2 minutes of speech per megabyte. And this can all be kept on CD if hard drive space is an issue.
 
In terms of 3D games, actually, neither Bungie nor idSoftware had the best engine of the time.. that has to go to the now-defunct makers of Thief, who made the origional engine for Ultima Underworld. True 3D worlds, there, not simple 2D maps with extruded walls ^_^ And a fait bit earlier than even Doom.

But this is a tangent.. and I shall make a targeted headshot on it now with my gauss rifle. It's dead. ^_^
 
1C. OK with me, the combat in Fallout 1 and 2 isn't very good anyway.

I mean, how is it possible to miss with a sawed-off shotgun at point blank? And 5 out of 100 times no matter how skilled you are? Why use PnP-like rules when you have lots of computing power easily available? With a low skill, you can miss most of the time. And you generally have to hit many times to neutralize an opponent. Who's idea of good gameplay is this? Take the Den gang battle at the old church as an example. Having a swarm of people shooting at each other at close range without much happening is just ridiculous at first, then it gets boring.

If realism was sacrificed for gameplay, I would have applauded it. But this does not seem to be the case. From what I can see, the developers didn't even try to balance FO2. For example, the hip kick does the same damage as a kick (don't remember name) which takes far less APs and (I think) is easier to learn. The only thing the hip kick does is clutter up an interface that wasn't the best to begin with. At least try!

OK, so the games aren't about realism. But why include real-life guns then? Just to satisfy gun fetishists? When I see a Desert Eagle in a game, I get certain expectations. It's a powerful handgun that should be devastating at close range. When the game then fails to fulfill those expectations, I am very disappointed. So while real-life guns can add to the coolness factor, they end up detracting from the experience when they don't perform somewhat like the player would expect. It's like giving the player a Ferrari which can't break the speed limit.

Worst of all, is having a system that allows to aim for and hit in the eyes, but not always killing or even stopping the enemy when it happens. It totally breaks with anything you would expect and gives no explanation for it. Have you ever seen a movie where an ordinary bad guy is shot in the eye and lives?

I enjoyed Fallout. I think it's one of the best RPGs ever. But when Fallout 2 did nothing about these problems, I got fed up. I started to look for a way to hack the game to make it more enjoyable to me. In the end I realised the task is not worth it without documented source code or a powerful scripting language.

If I could only get my hands on that source...
 
[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-02 AT 12:15PM (GMT)[p]>1C. OK with me, the combat
>in Fallout 1 and 2
>isn't very good anyway.
>
>I mean, how is it possible
>to miss with a sawed-off
>shotgun at point blank? And
>5 out of 100 times
>no matter how skilled you
>are? Why use PnP-like rules
>when you have lots of
>computing power easily available? With
>a low skill, you can
>miss most of the time.
>And you generally have to
>hit many times to neutralize
>an opponent. Who's idea of
>good gameplay is this? Take
>the Den gang battle at
>the old church as an
>example. Having a swarm of
>people shooting at each other
>at close range without much
>happening is just ridiculous at
>first, then it gets boring.

Wow. This speaks one phrase. "Clueless as hell."

>If realism was sacrificed for gameplay,
>I would have applauded it.
>But this does not seem
>to be the case. From
>what I can see, the
>developers didn't even try to
>balance FO2. For example, the
>hip kick does the same
>damage as a kick (don't
>remember name) which takes far
>less APs and (I think)
>is easier to learn. The
>only thing the hip kick
>does is clutter up an
>interface that wasn't the best
>to begin with. At least
>try!
>
>OK, so the games aren't about
>realism. But why include real-life
>guns then? Just to satisfy
>gun fetishists? When I see
>a Desert Eagle in a
>game, I get certain expectations.
>It's a powerful handgun that
>should be devastating at close
>range. When the game then
>fails to fulfill those expectations,
>I am very disappointed. So
>while real-life guns can add
>to the coolness factor, they
>end up detracting from the
>experience when they don't perform
>somewhat like the player would
>expect. It's like giving the
>player a Ferrari which can't
>break the speed limit.

The above almost excuses the rampant cluelessness displayed in this post.

>Worst of all, is having a
>system that allows to aim
>for and hit in the
>eyes, but not always killing
>or even stopping the enemy
>when it happens. It totally
>breaks with anything you would
>expect and gives no explanation
>for it. Have you ever
>seen a movie where an
>ordinary bad guy is shot
>in the eye and lives?

Have you ever had a game where you got shot in the eyes in a single-player game and had to reload due to an instant kill? Know how frustrating that is? Know why it's not used in CRPGs and sparingly in tactical games (like surviving or standing after getting shot in the head in Jagged Alliance 2, X-Com, etc.)? CRPG Development 101. It's because that bullshit isn't fun at all, and just makes the game a pain to play. And here you where whining about your lack of an attention span, what happens when you're hitting the reload button for the nth time?

Take your realism and cram it sideways up your ass.


>I enjoyed Fallout. I think it's
>one of the best RPGs
>ever. But when Fallout 2
>did nothing about these problems,
>I got fed up. I
>started to look for a
>way to hack the game
>to make it more enjoyable
>to me. In the end
>I realised the task is
>not worth it without documented
>source code or a powerful
>scripting language.
>
>If I could only get my
>hands on that source...

Might I suggest one of 1,500 Quake III Realism mods?
 
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