Fallout 3 reviews round-up #25

Your argument is invalidated by the Force Lock option which is based on your skill. I guess the 'problem' is that it's very unforgiving in that you get one shot and then the lock is broken. Though I'm sure I can drudge up some arguments that support the idea of hard decisions that cut you off if you fail.

And really.. it's not that difficult. I'm pretty old and my reflexes are nothing like they used to be and I had no trouble with very hard locks.

Of course some people argue on sheer principle that minigames shouldn't be there at all and that I can somewhat agree with.. but then again others like a little interactivity and the chance to assist a character and make a difference.

But if you don't like it or can't do it then Force Lock. With a high skill you will open low level things every time, and high level things sometimes.

Not that you'd ever save/reload until you got it right or anything.. that never happens in an RPG. ;)
 
When you interact with the device the minigame screen pops up, but you do not ever have to play it. You can attempt to force the lock as soon as it does.

You've... played the game right?

Anyway, I'm not going to say minigames rule or minigames suck.

I am going to say that if minigames are going to exist along with skills then this 'compromise' is definitely a huge step forward. The next logical step would be to have more break points, but the mechanics behind the scenes actually take exact skill into account. Higher skills give you more wiggle room in the lockpicking minigame, just like they give you fewer words/more dud removers in hacking.

So that's it. Like minigames or don't, but the marraige of the two in this game is miles better than Bioshock or Oblivion.
 
No I haven't played the game. Why would I be asking something if I could just load up the game to check?

betamonkey said:
When you interact with the device the minigame screen pops up, but you do not ever have to play it. You can attempt to force the lock as soon as it does.
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Dionysus said:
And you are wrong about the skills being useless. You can't even access the minigames without the proper skill level. You might want to give the game another shot when you are feeling a bit more open-minded.
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But you still have to make a skill check before you can interact with the device? Yes or No? Which if yes is absurd. You either have mini games (which may use the character skill level to make the mini game easier) or you have a skill check to open the device full stop. Anything else is redundant.
 
/facepalm

Yes. You need a skill check to access the minigame. Low skills won't even be able to try impossible devices.

Once you accomplish this you can either play the minigame or 'force' with one chance at success/fail based on your skill relative to the difficulty of the device. The higher your skill and the lower the sophistication of the device the greater chance your 'force' has to succeed. By the time you get to 100 very easy devices are 100%, easy ones are 85%. I think very hard ones are at best 35%.

Call it abusrd if you want but for some us it's a giant leap forward compared to a level 1 lockpicker opening the toughest chest in the game. Now THAT's abusrd.

Just like this whole argument. This has nothing to do with lamenting the fact of minigames existing and accepting the fact they simply do and commenting on how it is implemented, which is actually very well in this case.

And let me repeat, one more damn time. If you are going to have skill levels AND mini games this system is a great marriage of the two compared to previous efforts.

You may not LIKE them being in your Fallout, and I don't even know if I do.. but I am not judging this based on what I think should be in Fallout and simply analyzing what they put in.
 
it seems like the general consensus is that people who enjoy Fallout 3 are people who have little to no expectations about what they want from a game.

those who hate it, well...

they're obviously just haters.

(i haven't played it, yet, btw.)
 
betamonkey said:
Call it abusrd if you want but for some us it's a giant leap forward compared to a level 1 lockpicker opening the toughest chest in the game. Now THAT's abusrd.
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Wel, except that I have not seen that happen in any of the well-made RPGs that I know. All the developers have to do is increase lock DC and no level 1 character will ever open it, even if the player puts EVERYTING into lockpick. Lockpicks in FO1 and FO2 were HARD TO PICK, for example I had to go unlock the stash in the Gecko cave in FO2 much later in the game, even with a "thief" character.

Force lock also should be outside the minigame, otherwise it's plain useless. An equivalent of "bash" would be good.

If you're saying lockpick with just skill check is silly, you haven't played many RPGs.

No skill check, hard minigame would be actually fine because stats in FO3 don't seem to affect many things anyway.

EDIT: to sonicblastoise "Those who hate it are just haters" - I have spent about 10 hours on the game, mostly exploring, but also some questing. I hate it for the type of game it is. I am also sad because it could be much much better, since a lot of bad things come from lack of care and insight of the game devs. Your statement does not really hold true. Most of the reasonale people on this forum most likely have their very precise reasons for liking/not liking stuff about the game.
 
Ausdoerrt said:
Wel, except that I have not seen that happen in any of the well-made RPGs that I know. All the developers have to do is increase lock DC and no level 1 character will ever open it, even if the player puts EVERYTING into lockpick. Lockpicks in FO1 and FO2 were HARD TO PICK, for example I had to go unlock the stash in the Gecko cave in FO2 much later in the game, even with a "thief" character.
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Yes, that was one instance of things you could go back to, but it was few and far between. Even in FO 1/2. But that's besides the point. FO3 actually has plenty of this. Things you may encounter early that you can't possibly open until later.


If you're saying lockpick with just skill check is silly, you haven't played many RPGs.
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Maybe I haven't made myself clear the 4 other times I stated it.

This is not about whether you think minigames are good or not, it's about analyzing how it's implemented in this game compared to minigames in other games. If you are going to have minigames in an RPG AND have character skill levels they need to be somewhat dependent on each other. The way it's done in Fallout 3 is not bad. Again, I am not saying minigames are good or bad.. I am saying there is a minigame, and taken for what it is it's not poorly implemented.

I hope I don't have to repeat that a 5th time. :(

No skill check, hard minigame would be actually fine because stats in FO3 don't seem to affect many things anyway
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Stats affect a lot. It may be different than how it worked previously in some cases, but they definitely matter.

No skill check, hard minigame would be like Oblivion.. and just no.

since a lot of bad things come from lack of care and insight of the game devs
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Could you be a little more melodramatic? Don't care? What kind of horsecrap is that? Is that what people really think? Hundreds of people devote 4 years of their life on something they don't care about? Serious?

You may not like the game, that's fine. No one has to. And I'm not even saying whether I do or not but anyone with half a shred of objectivity can clearly see the world was crafted with nothing but the utmost care.
 
betamonkey said:
This is not about whether you think minigames are good or not, it's about analyzing how it's implemented in this game compared to minigames in other games. If you are going to have minigames in an RPG AND have character skill levels they need to be somewhat dependent on each other. The way it's done in Fallout 3 is not bad. Again, I am not saying minigames are good or bad.. I am saying there is a minigame, and taken for what it is it's not poorly implemented.
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Sure, but it should also be analyzed compared to using a skill check as well. It might be on the better side of skill based minigames, at least in RPGs, but that doesn't make it good. I'd still argue that neither minigame is set up to be heavily impacted by skills (mastermind does better than lockpicking) and thus neither minigame is good in place of a skill check. I'd also say that the lockpicking minigame is a bad repeated minigame period because of how little it changes (different angle and that's it). For example, I much prefer lockpicking minigames like the ones Onimusha has because at least they are puzzles. No, they still aren't great but they are all different enough to be interesting.

betamonkey said:
You may not like the game, that's fine. No one has to. And I'm not even saying whether I do or not but anyone with half a shred of objectivity can clearly see the world was crafted with nothing but the utmost care.
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Either their incompetent, sloppy, rushed, or didn't care. I personally think it's the former most option but hey, to each their own.
 
granted, my comment about the haters was made in jest. but i can tell that the criticisms made on this game are certainly not second-hand fables or agenda-driven attempts to discredit what seems to be genuinely quality game.

but that's just it, for me, fallout was much more than just gaming in general. but i suppose bethesda sees games (as many companies do) as simply a diversion and a way to make money. they don't see them as experiences, worlds, or creations, but just simply as games. so yeah, i can see how, with that philosophy, they would create a game that is, on the surface, "epic," but at its core, empty.

what would really bring this game to life is quality human interaction, the feeling that there actually was an intelligent design at work behind the scenes of the visual masterpiece. but it seems that, in light of the poor writing, lack of item descriptions, and lack of lore in general, the "situational" side of the game (backstory, item descriptions, history, lore) is nowhere near the caliber of the visual side.

it's horribly lopsided. why can't we get a game where all aspects of the game are treated with equal care and pleasure? instead we get

games that look fantastic, but play terribly (SOF III!)
or
solid mechanics, but terrible writing (Contra! the original Mario!)
or
fantastic writing, but mediocre visuals (fallout! wasteland! castle of the winds!)
or
visually inspiring, but shallow and underutilized (Fallout 3)

there are lots more, but i really don't care to elaborate. unless you make me.
 
betamonkey said:
This is not about whether you think minigames are good or not, it's about analyzing how it's implemented in this game compared to minigames in other games. If you are going to have minigames in an RPG AND have character skill levels they need to be somewhat dependent on each other. The way it's done in Fallout 3 is not bad. Again, I am not saying minigames are good or bad.. I am saying there is a minigame, and taken for what it is it's not poorly implemented.
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Comparing the description of it to other mini games it is poorly designed, making the character pass a skill check just so the player has the option to play the mini game is redundant! You either have the mini game or the skill check. The mini game can gain in difficulty to protect high level containers/locations but then the skill level can be used to offset the difficulty. Which is a much more logical use of skills in a action rpg with mini games. This is the problem with action rpgs, designers forget that skills and stats are a means to an end to allow you to role play not the actual role play, with an action game that allows the player direct control of their characters actions and outcomes stats and skills do not, should not be used the same way as in a more abstract gaming experience.

betamonkey said:
You may not like the game, that's fine. No one has to. And I'm not even saying whether I do or not but anyone with half a shred of objectivity can clearly see the world was crafted with nothing but the utmost care.
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That's really hard to believe with all the inconstancies that keep getting highlighted. Not just here or at the codex but in mainstream previews etc.
 
requiem_for_a_starfury said:
But you still have to make a skill check before you can interact with the device? Yes or No? Which if yes is absurd. You either have mini games (which may use the character skill level to make the mini game easier) or you have a skill check to open the device full stop. Anything else is redundant.
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not really, because it uses skill level whether you can open a certain type of lock or not, and then if your able to u have to do the grunt work to get it open.

this compromise is a IMO better than straight minigame or skillcheck.
 
Dionysus said:
Well, the minigame certainly isn't pointless. In order to open a lock, you need to pass the skill check and beat the minigame. I could understand if you didn't like it, but you don't even know how to play it. That's why I suggested that you might want to give it another shot. At the very least, you'll be able to bash it in a more informed fashion. :)
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The minigame is pointless. The first time I lockpicked something I accidentally clicked close so I had no clue how to lockpick something so I had to figure it out on my own. So far I have also lockpicked every single lock doing it my way without using the mouse.

So this makes the minigame even more useless. Even if I didn't fully understand how to play it I still could beat it. This also does not remove the bad dialogue, voice acting, AI, animations, weapon accuracy when I have 100 skillpoints, and many other flaws. So far the only thing going for it is that the world looks great. That's it. You know what, the farcry 2 world looked great too.

I think that over the past few years there have been so many mediocre games being made that most people have chosen to see those games as fantastic works of art instead of the piles of shit they are.

I also think they tried to give the main story a bit better dialogue than the side quests. I can easily see the difference in quality.
 
UncannyGarlic said:
betamonkey said:
You may not like the game, that's fine. No one has to. And I'm not even saying whether I do or not but anyone with half a shred of objectivity can clearly see the world was crafted with nothing but the utmost care.
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Sorry that should've been "lack of care or insight". I also truly believe that lots of people in a company as big as Bethesda go to work to earn their payckeck. And their paycheck is not affected by whether they care about the game. I'd assume there was a handful who actually gave a damn, but looking at the result, they must be a minority.
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Ausdoerrt said:
Sorry that should've been "lack of care or insight". I also truly believe that lots of people in a company as big as Bethesda go to work to earn their payckeck. And their paycheck is not affected by whether they care about the game. I'd assume there was a handful who actually gave a damn, but looking at the result, they must be a minority.
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Well it's also possible that they just have a very inexperienced and/or incompetent staff. The biggest issue is the fact that the problems of Oblivion are the problems of Fallout 3. If they care so much then why are these present and why did fans have to create fourteen patches to fix problems with vanilla Oblivion while Bethesda released DLC and expansions?
 
Artisticspaz said:
this compromise is a IMO better than straight minigame or skillcheck.
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It's bad design, just look at EnglishMuffin's example.
The minigame is pointless. The first time I lockpicked something I accidentally clicked close so I had no clue how to lockpick something so I had to figure it out on my own.
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The character is capable of picking the lock but the player doesn't have a clue which is retarded (the design, not you EnglishMuffin). Just having a skill check worked well in VTMB, just having mini games worked well in BioShock (it's just a pity about the actual mini game). In an action rpg you do not need skill checks for actions the player carries out themselves.
 
I just wish they'd focus on what you use your skills for, not how you use them.
But it's certainly easier to shove a dull little minigame in the face of the player.
 
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