Saint_Proverbius
Vault Senior Citizen
>Man, you are a tight ass.
> You really need to
>loosen up or it's going
>to kill you one day.
> It's just a game.
> You don't have to
>be rude. And if
>you can't figure that out,
>than you need to get
>a life.
It's always funny when someone who writes several pages on gaming stuff on an internet forum uses the argument, "Get a life". Not only is that ironic, that "insult" has been around since the 1980s on USENET. Get some new material.
Here's a thought, you can take some inspiration from every girl in Junior Highs everywhere and say, "Prov is SO immature!" Oh, no, wait, that still has that originality problem.
>As for your comments. Don't
>forget That Vault City was
>in the Northeast, and getting
>there wasn't really easy.
>There were mountains to cross,
>raiders and encounters to avoid
>and there was Modoc between
>the Den and VC.
Sulik and Vic did it, didn't they? Sulik came all the way from Utah to reach The Den. Vic, well, if a fat, mechanic bastard like Vic can cross from Vault City to Arroyo several times, then I'd say tribals could do it.
Of course most people would be locked down in their jobs maintaining needs, but hard doesn't mean impossible when it comes to travelling the wasteland if the person has the skills to do it. Considering tribals have hunting bands that leave camp and wonder around until they get some food, I'd say that a tribal going to Vault City and back isn't that far fetched.
>As for Klamath- it's a
>frontier town where most of
>the people seem interested in
>either making moonshine or trapping.
> Frontier town means its
>got to be on the
>frontier. Distrust between Arroyo and
>local traders as well as
>discrimination between traders and locals
>would mean that, even if
>they did occassionally trade, such
>transactions were armslength at best.
Doesn't this fly in the face of your whole, "Humanity is resilient" argument? You have tribals living a stone's throw away from a town that has it "better", but they're unwilling to elevate themselves to the examples set by those even on what you'd call a "frontier town".
They have an example of "Better Life" coming and visiting them, even if they don't enter Klamath on their own, they can still see that better life routinely.
> Thus, the communities could
>be close, yet technologically at
>different levels, especially if Arroyo
>is isolationist.
Again, this refutes your whole "Humanity is resilient" synopsis.
>As for
>the Den and slave central,
>it makes sense for them
>to be close to the
>tribals as that's the commodity
>they trade. Where else
>would they be, among the
>aliens?
Given the time it takes for a human to get pregnant, spawn a new human, and have that human reach maturity, and the population size of Arroyo, I'd say the whole Predator-Prey relationship would have wiped Arroyo out in no time flat.
>There is also
>no indication as to how
>long the slavers have been
>at the Den. They
>could have shown up fairly
>recently and, because of their
>superior firepower, dominate.
Again, have you even played the game? There are many indications that the slaver guild in The Den is fairly old. The guard situation is one of the most obvious quests involving the idea that the slavers have been there for a while.
> Communities that have a
>strong sense of "self" vs.
>"other" could be resistant to
>new technology even if it
>surrounds them.
Which also beats down on your argument about developing an infrastructure, sailing to foreign lands, and so on.
THANKS!
>As for difficulty in traveling even
>small spaces, remember that Vault
>City is having trouble finding
>a way to NCR.
Doesn't help your original case again. You're good at arguing against yourself.
>But that tribals,
>because they are "hardy" would
>travel better than more technologically
>advanced folks, is possible. Farmers
>are probably more attached to
>their land (why they are
>farmers) then tribals who use
>slash and burn.
The correct term is "hunter gatherer". As such, tribals need to be able to move around in the wasteland.
>However,
>as more technologically advanced folks
>might have better weapons, better
>transportation, better methods for repairing
>damaged goods. Furthermore, dependency
>on advanced goods might create
>more incentive to trade with
>others and more experience and
>knowledge of the outside world.
Okay, you're slipping back to foolishness. More advanced stuff is harder to maintain. If you have an irrigation system going, and a person dedicated to that operation, he can't just up and leave town to go see what's out there.
Also, given that there are only primitive style agricultural techniques in place, it's not like farming is even remotely as easy in Fallout as it was in the 1800s. How many oxen driven mechanical reaping machines do you think exist today? That's not even a simple machine to invent either, because there's numerous problems when dealing with grain harvesting mechanically. That's why it took two generations of McCormicks to develop the first working one.Robert McCormick spent 15 years of his life working on one before he gave up. Cyrus took up where his father left off, and it still took him year of development time to get it right.
>As for production. My thoughts on
>this are to make a
>limited game that is expandable.
> The idea is that
>the game designers would be
>able to profit from these
>expansions.
FUN FACT: Expansions are no where near as profitable as full games because they never sell as well as a full game *yet* they take about the same time to develop.
There's a reason BIS has been using the infinity engine for nearly five years and the trend has been One Full Game, and then an expansion pack. Then they repeat that.
The only company that's managed to buck that trend is Maxis with The Sims, and that's because The Sims is *widely* popular. It's the best selling game of all time, in fact.
>It seemed a lot of people
>like Fallout Tactics.
You haven't been paying attention, then.
>As for science stagnating. In Europe
>you had a system that
>was dominated by a religion
>that forced an ideology on
>top of science. Inquisitions
>were preventing scientific discourse, but
>this didn't stop education or
>the study of the nature
>of natural world.
Actually, the church funded scientific research, but that wasn't until the late 1400s. You have no one in Fallout that's going to foot the bill for pure scientific development like the church did in the dark ages, because it's post apocalyptic with no infrastructure.
>In other
>areas of the world science
>continued to develop. As you
>note, this comes in part
>from people satisfying material needs.
No, it didn't. The rise of Islam pretty much ended the development of Persian science. Asian cultures were stagnant at the time too. Steel? Gun powder? Paper currency? All those had been developed centuries earlier.
>But as long as
>people have needs, then individuals
>who study the sciences will
>continue. The direction of that
>science will usually reflect the
>needs of the time.
History says otherwise.
>This does not require extensive
>infrastructure, especially if the individuals
>are rediscovering the world.
>Here we have science books,
>repair manuels, medical texts, and
>even in Fallout 1 we
>had people willing to sustain
>this information (the librarian at
>the Hub, the BOS, the
>scientists and craftsman at the
>Boneyard).
And yet, all it would take is one raider finding those people to snuff that out. In fact, even developing something great would be nothing more than an incentive for a raider to come along and claim that stuff because the law of the land is who can take what when it boils down to it.
>Even in Petroleum doesn't exist, alternative
>fuel sources did exist. Read
>the message board about finding
>fuel for the car.
Alternative fuels require infrastructure. Apparently, you don't get the concept of an "infrastructure". You can make an alcohol driven car, but it requires a high grade of alcohol to run on.
That pretty much means you can't dump Rotgut in the tank and expect to do anything more than screw it up. Now, even though you have this car, you have to have a means of distilling this alcohol and the right type of grain with which to make it. Fuel alcohol requires special, fatty kernals of corn for the process.
So, basically, you're limited to half the distance you can get in your vehicle, because you have to return to your point of origin. Why? Simple, because you can't count on other communities to have Mr. Special Grain being grown or the right kind of distilling equipment to make your alcohol.
Steam has even more problems than alcohol!
>If
>there is fuel for the
>car, why not other forms
>of transportation. The cars don't
>exist because the designers didn't
>include them.
In fact, they even presented us with reasons cars didn't exist. Interesting, that!
>They exist in
>Fallout 2 because they did,
>and they continued to exist
>in Fallout Tactics because the
>designers wanted them. Could they
>exist? Even after all the
>years of wear and tear.
> There are a lot
>of derelict vechicles out there
>and if they have working
>parts, why not salvage.
Cars were included in Fallout Tactics because the designers didn't know shit about Fallout. That's the same reason why Supermutants are living in a working and productive oil refinery in the game.
>Save the insults,they make you sound
>like prick.
And without insults, you still sound like a moron.
>As for vessel
>building, yes, some infrastructure. But
>assuming that communities at a
>stage similar to NCR or
>the Shi in SF couldn't
>do it, forecloses a lot
>of possibilities.
They'd also need a reason to do it as well as the means. This reason has to be better than the resources used up by the means as well. Say the NCR made a ship. They'd have to justify the manpower in building it, they'd have to gather the resources needed to build it when there's not that much wood around, they'd have to build a dock to build it, and so on. You're talking decades of work here, since there aren't that many people in the NCR who can be put to such a task.
Shady Sands(aka NCR) has a population of 3000 people TOTAL. Most of whom have jobs already that go towards other goals. Now, say they can spare 5%, or 150 people, which is way too large a number. We'll use it any way.
Okay, now you have to build a lumbermill, or a place to process trees as well as a dock. Now, factor in that NCR is very much INLAND, you're talking about sending this 150 people over land to get to the coast. Let's assume that they all make it, which is also unlikely, but we'll just assume!
Okay, now you have say 30 people working on the lumbermill and 30 people working on the dock and another 30 working on building housing. You have 30 people guarding both sites to keep the raiders off it. That leaves 30 people to find food and water for all 150 people.
Starting to see the problem? No? I'll go on.
Okay, once the lumbermill is done, that frees up 30 people. Naturally, we're assuming no one's died because of starvation/hydration(LIKELY), disease(LIKELY), creature/raider attacks(LIKELY). Move those lumbermill builders to collecting trees and/or working the mill itself. 20 people on tree scouting, 10 people working the mill. Again, we're assuming that while scouting for trees, no one dies(UNLIKELY SINCE WE HAVE NO GUARDS TO SPARE).
The dock is done, so let's put those 30 on building the ship and gathering the other components for ship like the sail. Say, 10 people looking for sail material that actually works, 10 people ship building, and 10 people building support facilities for the trade thing and storing food for the journey.
Hell, fuck it. This is just way too ludricrious to go on. You're talking about an impossible endevour here because you not only have to build a ship, you have to build the support facilities for the ship, and the infrastructure to build it!
We don't even have people available to research navigation, which is a huge concept, don't you think?
>Most people who
>do sail know how to
>navigate. Even tank drivers in
>the desert during World War
>2 could navigate by stars.
>The knowledge exists so it
>wouldn't be that hard to
>do it again.
Actually, yeah it would. Without any astronomy at all or land marks, let's see you figure out how to navigate from Boston to Barcelona.
>Yes, Fallout is post apocalytic, but
>its not the stone age
>either.
It's a hell of a lot worse than Europe after the fall of Rome. Europeans didn't have to deal with gun toting raiders, giant insects, and death claws.
Suck it down.
> You really need to
>loosen up or it's going
>to kill you one day.
> It's just a game.
> You don't have to
>be rude. And if
>you can't figure that out,
>than you need to get
>a life.
It's always funny when someone who writes several pages on gaming stuff on an internet forum uses the argument, "Get a life". Not only is that ironic, that "insult" has been around since the 1980s on USENET. Get some new material.
Here's a thought, you can take some inspiration from every girl in Junior Highs everywhere and say, "Prov is SO immature!" Oh, no, wait, that still has that originality problem.
>As for your comments. Don't
>forget That Vault City was
>in the Northeast, and getting
>there wasn't really easy.
>There were mountains to cross,
>raiders and encounters to avoid
>and there was Modoc between
>the Den and VC.
Sulik and Vic did it, didn't they? Sulik came all the way from Utah to reach The Den. Vic, well, if a fat, mechanic bastard like Vic can cross from Vault City to Arroyo several times, then I'd say tribals could do it.
Of course most people would be locked down in their jobs maintaining needs, but hard doesn't mean impossible when it comes to travelling the wasteland if the person has the skills to do it. Considering tribals have hunting bands that leave camp and wonder around until they get some food, I'd say that a tribal going to Vault City and back isn't that far fetched.
>As for Klamath- it's a
>frontier town where most of
>the people seem interested in
>either making moonshine or trapping.
> Frontier town means its
>got to be on the
>frontier. Distrust between Arroyo and
>local traders as well as
>discrimination between traders and locals
>would mean that, even if
>they did occassionally trade, such
>transactions were armslength at best.
Doesn't this fly in the face of your whole, "Humanity is resilient" argument? You have tribals living a stone's throw away from a town that has it "better", but they're unwilling to elevate themselves to the examples set by those even on what you'd call a "frontier town".
They have an example of "Better Life" coming and visiting them, even if they don't enter Klamath on their own, they can still see that better life routinely.
> Thus, the communities could
>be close, yet technologically at
>different levels, especially if Arroyo
>is isolationist.
Again, this refutes your whole "Humanity is resilient" synopsis.
>As for
>the Den and slave central,
>it makes sense for them
>to be close to the
>tribals as that's the commodity
>they trade. Where else
>would they be, among the
>aliens?
Given the time it takes for a human to get pregnant, spawn a new human, and have that human reach maturity, and the population size of Arroyo, I'd say the whole Predator-Prey relationship would have wiped Arroyo out in no time flat.
>There is also
>no indication as to how
>long the slavers have been
>at the Den. They
>could have shown up fairly
>recently and, because of their
>superior firepower, dominate.
Again, have you even played the game? There are many indications that the slaver guild in The Den is fairly old. The guard situation is one of the most obvious quests involving the idea that the slavers have been there for a while.
> Communities that have a
>strong sense of "self" vs.
>"other" could be resistant to
>new technology even if it
>surrounds them.
Which also beats down on your argument about developing an infrastructure, sailing to foreign lands, and so on.
THANKS!
>As for difficulty in traveling even
>small spaces, remember that Vault
>City is having trouble finding
>a way to NCR.
Doesn't help your original case again. You're good at arguing against yourself.
>But that tribals,
>because they are "hardy" would
>travel better than more technologically
>advanced folks, is possible. Farmers
>are probably more attached to
>their land (why they are
>farmers) then tribals who use
>slash and burn.
The correct term is "hunter gatherer". As such, tribals need to be able to move around in the wasteland.
>However,
>as more technologically advanced folks
>might have better weapons, better
>transportation, better methods for repairing
>damaged goods. Furthermore, dependency
>on advanced goods might create
>more incentive to trade with
>others and more experience and
>knowledge of the outside world.
Okay, you're slipping back to foolishness. More advanced stuff is harder to maintain. If you have an irrigation system going, and a person dedicated to that operation, he can't just up and leave town to go see what's out there.
Also, given that there are only primitive style agricultural techniques in place, it's not like farming is even remotely as easy in Fallout as it was in the 1800s. How many oxen driven mechanical reaping machines do you think exist today? That's not even a simple machine to invent either, because there's numerous problems when dealing with grain harvesting mechanically. That's why it took two generations of McCormicks to develop the first working one.Robert McCormick spent 15 years of his life working on one before he gave up. Cyrus took up where his father left off, and it still took him year of development time to get it right.
>As for production. My thoughts on
>this are to make a
>limited game that is expandable.
> The idea is that
>the game designers would be
>able to profit from these
>expansions.
FUN FACT: Expansions are no where near as profitable as full games because they never sell as well as a full game *yet* they take about the same time to develop.
There's a reason BIS has been using the infinity engine for nearly five years and the trend has been One Full Game, and then an expansion pack. Then they repeat that.
The only company that's managed to buck that trend is Maxis with The Sims, and that's because The Sims is *widely* popular. It's the best selling game of all time, in fact.
>It seemed a lot of people
>like Fallout Tactics.
You haven't been paying attention, then.
>As for science stagnating. In Europe
>you had a system that
>was dominated by a religion
>that forced an ideology on
>top of science. Inquisitions
>were preventing scientific discourse, but
>this didn't stop education or
>the study of the nature
>of natural world.
Actually, the church funded scientific research, but that wasn't until the late 1400s. You have no one in Fallout that's going to foot the bill for pure scientific development like the church did in the dark ages, because it's post apocalyptic with no infrastructure.
>In other
>areas of the world science
>continued to develop. As you
>note, this comes in part
>from people satisfying material needs.
No, it didn't. The rise of Islam pretty much ended the development of Persian science. Asian cultures were stagnant at the time too. Steel? Gun powder? Paper currency? All those had been developed centuries earlier.
>But as long as
>people have needs, then individuals
>who study the sciences will
>continue. The direction of that
>science will usually reflect the
>needs of the time.
History says otherwise.
>This does not require extensive
>infrastructure, especially if the individuals
>are rediscovering the world.
>Here we have science books,
>repair manuels, medical texts, and
>even in Fallout 1 we
>had people willing to sustain
>this information (the librarian at
>the Hub, the BOS, the
>scientists and craftsman at the
>Boneyard).
And yet, all it would take is one raider finding those people to snuff that out. In fact, even developing something great would be nothing more than an incentive for a raider to come along and claim that stuff because the law of the land is who can take what when it boils down to it.
>Even in Petroleum doesn't exist, alternative
>fuel sources did exist. Read
>the message board about finding
>fuel for the car.
Alternative fuels require infrastructure. Apparently, you don't get the concept of an "infrastructure". You can make an alcohol driven car, but it requires a high grade of alcohol to run on.
That pretty much means you can't dump Rotgut in the tank and expect to do anything more than screw it up. Now, even though you have this car, you have to have a means of distilling this alcohol and the right type of grain with which to make it. Fuel alcohol requires special, fatty kernals of corn for the process.
So, basically, you're limited to half the distance you can get in your vehicle, because you have to return to your point of origin. Why? Simple, because you can't count on other communities to have Mr. Special Grain being grown or the right kind of distilling equipment to make your alcohol.
Steam has even more problems than alcohol!
>If
>there is fuel for the
>car, why not other forms
>of transportation. The cars don't
>exist because the designers didn't
>include them.
In fact, they even presented us with reasons cars didn't exist. Interesting, that!
>They exist in
>Fallout 2 because they did,
>and they continued to exist
>in Fallout Tactics because the
>designers wanted them. Could they
>exist? Even after all the
>years of wear and tear.
> There are a lot
>of derelict vechicles out there
>and if they have working
>parts, why not salvage.
Cars were included in Fallout Tactics because the designers didn't know shit about Fallout. That's the same reason why Supermutants are living in a working and productive oil refinery in the game.
>Save the insults,they make you sound
>like prick.
And without insults, you still sound like a moron.
>As for vessel
>building, yes, some infrastructure. But
>assuming that communities at a
>stage similar to NCR or
>the Shi in SF couldn't
>do it, forecloses a lot
>of possibilities.
They'd also need a reason to do it as well as the means. This reason has to be better than the resources used up by the means as well. Say the NCR made a ship. They'd have to justify the manpower in building it, they'd have to gather the resources needed to build it when there's not that much wood around, they'd have to build a dock to build it, and so on. You're talking decades of work here, since there aren't that many people in the NCR who can be put to such a task.
Shady Sands(aka NCR) has a population of 3000 people TOTAL. Most of whom have jobs already that go towards other goals. Now, say they can spare 5%, or 150 people, which is way too large a number. We'll use it any way.
Okay, now you have to build a lumbermill, or a place to process trees as well as a dock. Now, factor in that NCR is very much INLAND, you're talking about sending this 150 people over land to get to the coast. Let's assume that they all make it, which is also unlikely, but we'll just assume!
Okay, now you have say 30 people working on the lumbermill and 30 people working on the dock and another 30 working on building housing. You have 30 people guarding both sites to keep the raiders off it. That leaves 30 people to find food and water for all 150 people.
Starting to see the problem? No? I'll go on.
Okay, once the lumbermill is done, that frees up 30 people. Naturally, we're assuming no one's died because of starvation/hydration(LIKELY), disease(LIKELY), creature/raider attacks(LIKELY). Move those lumbermill builders to collecting trees and/or working the mill itself. 20 people on tree scouting, 10 people working the mill. Again, we're assuming that while scouting for trees, no one dies(UNLIKELY SINCE WE HAVE NO GUARDS TO SPARE).
The dock is done, so let's put those 30 on building the ship and gathering the other components for ship like the sail. Say, 10 people looking for sail material that actually works, 10 people ship building, and 10 people building support facilities for the trade thing and storing food for the journey.
Hell, fuck it. This is just way too ludricrious to go on. You're talking about an impossible endevour here because you not only have to build a ship, you have to build the support facilities for the ship, and the infrastructure to build it!
We don't even have people available to research navigation, which is a huge concept, don't you think?
>Most people who
>do sail know how to
>navigate. Even tank drivers in
>the desert during World War
>2 could navigate by stars.
>The knowledge exists so it
>wouldn't be that hard to
>do it again.
Actually, yeah it would. Without any astronomy at all or land marks, let's see you figure out how to navigate from Boston to Barcelona.
>Yes, Fallout is post apocalytic, but
>its not the stone age
>either.
It's a hell of a lot worse than Europe after the fall of Rome. Europeans didn't have to deal with gun toting raiders, giant insects, and death claws.
Suck it down.
