Fallout in 20 gaming lows

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An article at Gamepro throws the canning of Fallout at 17th place in the top 20 gaming lows of 2004, here's a snibblet:<blockquote>17) Fallout RPG Canned, Reopened
Black Isle Studios saw its tragic end last year, and this year saw the disappointing release of Brotherhood of Steel, which like a long lost evil twin separated from birth, only served to tank the once brilliant franchise further. Hardcore fans hoped that the game would be picked up by Troika or Obsidian, but instead was nabbed by Bethesda, who plans to restart development from scratch--putting their own perks into the series.</blockquote>EA holds the 1th place of course.
Link: Top 20 Gaming Lows of 2004
Thanks goes out to Briosafreak and Suicidal Bob for informing us.
 
"...but instead was nabbed by Bethesda, who plans to restart development from scratch--putting their own perks into the series."

opinion: :evil:

Bethesta keeps this:

- Isometric View.
- Combat Turn-based (it can be improved)
- Adult content: a good history, prostitutes, drugs, etc.
- The same music style and sound effects. (The music is fantastic, a sound track.)

Bethesda improves this:

- less bugs.
- Graphic best (this for me doesn't matter, but...)
- More cities, more quests, more NPCs.

For me, it is great...
 
Damn, Sierra's gone for good?

I guess that means no new Space Quest game. :cry:

Or a very terrible one, on par with LSL Magna Cum Laude. :cry:
 
Marcelo said:
Bethesta keeps this...

Developers tend to fall into this "not invented here syndrome" where, even if something is good, they won't use it, because it was done by someone else. I think there is good odds that bethesda will do something quite a bit different. Does that automatically make it suck? Only for a closed-minded person. It depends on whether they can pull off some of their own spins that give it personality (and I'm pretty sure they will try). I'd happily play fallout in 3D if it was done well. I think it would be wild to literally bump into a super mutant in-your-face and pouding on you unexepectedly. But no matter what they do they will surely disappoint the die hard fallout fans, most of which don't seem to accept any kind of change at all.
 
Dude_obj wrote: " Developers tend to fall into this " not invented here syndrome " where, even if something i good, they won't uses it, because it was done by someone else ".

That is truth. But we would be in the stone age if everybody thought in like manner.

I expressed my simple opinion. The merit of Bethesta will to reside in: what is good, we will turn better; what is bad, we will cut. " The square wheel is good, but the round is better ".

Dude_obj wrote: " I think there i good odds that bethesda will of the quit something to bit different. Do donate that automatically make it suck "?

No, no, Dude, not by the long way. A more robust turn-based, a more robust character creator, an improved graph (there is games that mix isometric with 3d) it would be a wonder.
But certain characteristics cannot be moved. If that happens, Fallout 2 will be an eternal game.
But we don't speculate. We will wait the release of the game.

:wink:
 
Marcelo said:
But we don't speculate. We will wait the release of the game.


Why shouldnt we speculate ? Especily with all the disturbing tidbits that have been released ?
 
13) Legislators Move to Restrict Sales of Mature Games--And Fail

That's a low? :eyebrow:


9) EverQuest II Launches; Nobody Cares

Hehe. :P


7) Sierra Shut Down
:lightning:
 
13) Legislators Move to Restrict Sales of Mature Games--And Fail

That's a low? Eyebrow
Yes. For two reasons, one for each point of view.

The first being that people even tried.

'The second being that the rich game industry got out under from what every other industry does have to deal with: limitation on sales if products are deemed improper for children.
 
dude_obj said:
I think there is good odds that bethesda will do something quite a bit different. Does that automatically make it suck?
Yes, it does. Bethesda makes terrible RPGs. Before you insist on claiming that they can make a good Fallout 3, make sure you have more to work with than that it will be "something quite a bit different".

Only for a closed-minded person. It depends on whether they can pull off some of their own spins that give it personality (and I'm pretty sure they will try).
It's funny you should use Bethesda in same context as personality, because personality was absent from every one of their titles so far. With level design that would make even Neverwinter Nights designers cringe and dialogues reminiscent of Wikipedia browsing, Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind remain fine examples of what real roleplaying games shouldn't look like. Sophisticated engine and pixel shaders be damned, Morrowind screenshots should be in dictionaries accompanying the word "boredom".

I'd happily play fallout in 3D if it was done well. I think it would be wild to literally bump into a super mutant in-your-face and pouding on you unexepectedly.
Read some of the former discussions on the subject. Making a first person Fallout would also mean ditching turn-based gameplay, which would inevitably mean ditching SPECIAL system and everything that defined the RP aspect of the game. If you want a post-apoc shooter, go play S.T.A.L.K.E.R. or Half Life 2 Wasteland mod - Fallout 3 is a turn-based isometric roleplaying game and it must remain such.

But no matter what they do they will surely disappoint the die hard fallout fans, most of which don't seem to accept any kind of change at all.
You know what? Fuck change! Fallout Tactics was a change. Fallout: Piece of Shit was a change. Is that what you want? Is that your idea of what Fallout 3 should be like? In the game industry, change in 99.99% cases means change for worse. We Fallout fans don't want change - we want improvement! We don't want some mediocre developer tampering with concepts that were already worked-out and balanced to near-perfection. We want them to improve those aspects of Fallout that weren't perfect in the first two games, such as graphics engine and interface.
 
Ratty said:
Before you insist on claiming that they can make a good Fallout 3

I don't recall claiming that. And I don't buy the argument that 3D equals "shooter" and not RPG. That's just BS in my opinion. But I'll go back to the modding forums thanks.
 
Yes, it does. Bethesda makes terrible RPGs. Before you insist on claiming that they can make a good Fallout 3, make sure you have more to work with than that it will be "something quite a bit different".
That doesn't mean they automatically fail, though. They could come out and dazzle us all, but the chance is rather small if you can safely judge by their previous games.

It's funny you should use Bethesda in same context as personality, because personality was absent from every one of their titles so far. With level design that would make even Neverwinter Nights designers cringe and dialogues reminiscent of Wikipedia browsing, Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind remain fine examples of what real roleplaying games shouldn't look like. Sophisticated engine and pixel shaders be damned, Morrowind screenshots should be in dictionaries accompanying the word "boredom".
Yes. But again: you're judging by their previous exploits, and immediately throwing them out of the window. That's just silly, and won't get you anywhere. I'm not happy with the choice of Bethesda, but I'll be damned if I'm going to give up immediately.

Read some of the former discussions on the subject. Making a first person Fallout would also mean ditching turn-based gameplay, which would inevitably mean ditching SPECIAL system and everything that defined the RP aspect of the game. If you want a post-apoc shooter, go play S.T.A.L.K.E.R. or Half Life 2 Wasteland mod - Fallout 3 is a turn-based isometric roleplaying game and it must remain such.
No. Sorry rat, but you're wrong. If you incorporate a first-person view this means that turn-based and the previous forms of control have to go, because incorporating them into a First-Person View does not work.
However, this says nothing about allowing a third-person form of 3D, or any other perspective for that matter. It certainly isn't impossible to rebuild Fallout exactly as it was, but with a different point of view, or selection of point of views. A free camera, with the option of setting it to fixed isometric view, will not necessarily destroy any of the gameplay of Fallout.
Also, no turn-based doesn't mean no SPECIAL, it only means a raped form of SPECIAL.
You know what? Fuck change! Fallout Tactics was a change. Fallout: Piece of Shit was a change. Is that what you want? Is that your idea of what Fallout 3 should be like? In the game industry, change in 99.99% cases means change for worse. We Fallout fans don't want change - we want improvement! We don't want some mediocre developer tampering with concepts that were already worked-out and balanced to near-perfection. We want them to improve those aspects of Fallout that weren't perfect in the first two games, such as graphics engine and interface.
Ah yes, the straw man argument. 'Oh look, Fallout Tactics was change, you must want that!'. Ratty, give me a break and get off your high horse. This isn't doing anyone any good, and it only makes you look foolish. He said that change wasn't necessarily bad, and you go off at a bullshit tangent about 'Tactics was change, it sucked, hence change sucks!'. Bullshit. There are several things that can easily be changed and improved, the keyword system in diaolgue for instance, changing to a 3d graphics engine and making the talking heads go the way of Bloodlines. Don't get off and hit dude_obj over the head with bullshit statements just because you happen to be pissed at Bethesda as a choice.
 
Sander said:
That doesn't mean they automatically fail, though. They could come out and dazzle us all, but the chance is rather small if you can safely judge by their previous games.
Yes. But again: you're judging by their previous exploits, and immediately throwing them out of the window. That's just silly, and won't get you anywhere. I'm not happy with the choice of Bethesda, but I'll be damned if I'm going to give up immediately.
And what should I judge by? Perhaps by vague and, quite frankly, frightening statements Pete Hines gave in the press? I'm sorry, but I prefer to base my judgement on existing evidence. So if Arena sucked as an RPG, if Daggerfall sucked as an RPG, if Morrowind sucked as an RPG, then chances are Fallout 3 will suck as an RPG (unless Bethesda suddenly learns game design).

No. Sorry rat, but you're wrong. If you incorporate a first-person view this means that turn-based and the previous forms of control have to go, because incorporating them into a First-Person View does not work.
That's what I said.

However, this says nothing about allowing a third-person form of 3D, or any other perspective for that matter. It certainly isn't impossible to rebuild Fallout exactly as it was, but with a different point of view, or selection of point of views. A free camera, with the option of setting it to fixed isometric view, will not necessarily destroy any of the gameplay of Fallout.
Here's what dude_obj wrote: "I think it would be wild to literally bump into a super mutant in-your-face and pouding on you unexepectedly." Yep, sounds like first person shooter to me.

Also, no turn-based doesn't mean no SPECIAL, it only means a raped form of SPECIAL.
Again, that what I said. Don't stuff my mouth with arguments I already stated.

Ah yes, the straw man argument. 'Oh look, Fallout Tactics was change, you must want that!'. Ratty, give me a break and get off your high horse. This isn't doing anyone any good, and it only makes you look foolish. He said that change wasn't necessarily bad, and you go off at a bullshit tangent about 'Tactics was change, it sucked, hence change sucks!'.
Again, I prefer to work with existing evidence and previous experiences rather than slim chances of something extraordinary happening. Fact is, every attempt so far to tamper with established Fallout concepts resulted in an utter train-wreck. Another fact is, every attempt so far to tamper with established concepts in any game series resulted in an utter train-wreck. Franchizes that were completely ruined due to inept developers trying to fix that which doesn't need fixing or giving their games mass appeal are too numerous to be named, so it's statistically accurate to state that in game industry change equals total fuck-up.

Bullshit. There are several things that can easily be changed and improved, the keyword system in diaolgue for instance, changing to a 3d graphics engine and making the talking heads go the way of Bloodlines.
I already stated that Fallout 3 needs a good 3D engine. As for the keyword system, that's bullshit. I want to play a roleplaying game, not a post-apocalyptic version of Wikipedia.
 
And what should I judge by? Perhaps by vague and, quite frankly, frightening statements Pete Hines gave in the press? I'm sorry, but I prefer to base my judgement on existing evidence. So if Arena sucked as an RPG, if Daggerfall sucked as an RPG, if Morrowind sucked as an RPG, then chances are Fallout 3 will suck as an RPG (unless Bethesda suddenly learns game design).
As I said: don't give up immediately. No, I don't think the chances of them doing a good job are that high, but I'm not giving up all hope because that's all there's left to do. For some reason you immediately assume that they'll fuck up.

Here's what dude_obj wrote: "I think it would be wild to literally bump into a super mutant in-your-face and pouding on you unexepectedly." Yep, sounds like first person shooter to me.
yet it doesn't for me.
*walks around corner*
Argh! Supermutant!
*turn-based combat starts*
Hmm....first-person shooter indeed. :roll:

Again, that what I said. Don't stuff my mouth with arguments I already stated.
No it isn't, here's what you said:
[quote="Ratty]Making a first person Fallout would also mean ditching turn-based gameplay, which would inevitably mean ditching SPECIAL system and everything that defined the RP aspect of the game[/quote]
That is vastly different from my remark.


Again, I prefer to work with existing evidence and previous experiences rather than slim chances of something extraordinary happening. Fact is, every attempt so far to tamper with established Fallout concepts resulted in an utter train-wreck. Another fact is, every attempt so far to tamper with established concepts in any game series resulted in an utter train-wreck. Franchizes that were completely ruined due to inept developers trying to fix that which doesn't need fixing or giving their games mass appeal are too numerous to be named, so it's statistically accurate to state that in game industry change equals total fuck-up.
You're dead wrong. Every single game sequel has known change, and often this was actually good. Metal Gear Solid, for instance, was a great sequel, but with a lot of changes from its predecessors. Every game in the Pro Evolution Soccer series has known several changes, and every game has come out for the better. Perfect Dark was different from Goldeneye, but it wasn't worse off (and yes, it was an official sequel). The Super Smash Bros. series has improved constantly. The subsequent releases of the mario games were often as good or better than its predecessors. And what about Europa Universalis? And Baldur's Gate? Baldur's Gate 2 was an improvement, although both still sucked.
You're letting EA rule your judgement over the entire game industry, and that's just silly.

I already stated that Fallout 3 needs a good 3D engine. As for the keyword system, that's bullshit. I want to play a roleplaying game, not a post-apocalyptic version of Wikipedia.
You must've missed Rosh's discussion on keywords in the FO3 forum.
In short, the point is this: keywords help a lot in letting the player do some of the guessing, and not the game. If you have to type in a keyword with a specific person to get to finish the quest, or accept the quest, instead of it being handed to you on a silver platter, it's a lot more challenging and a lot more rewarding too.
The keyword system should be implemented in a synergy with the normal dialogue tree system for it to work, though.
EDIT: As for the 3d bit, my reaction was to your statement that Fallout should always remain isometric. I called Bullshit, you haven't responded.
 
Sander said:
yet it doesn't for me.
*walks around corner*
Argh! Supermutant!
*turn-based combat starts*
Hmm....first-person shooter indeed. :roll:
We had similar situations in Fallout 1 and 2, so then I don't see a point in dude_obj's statement.

Ratty said:
Making a first person Fallout would also mean ditching turn-based gameplay, which would inevitably mean ditching SPECIAL system and everything that defined the RP aspect of the game
That is vastly different from my remark.
Raped SPECIAL is no longer real SPECIAL. Having turn-based combat is a prerequisite for having proper SPECIAL system. Do you like how SPECIAL was handled in Lionheart? No, didn't think so.

You're dead wrong. Every single game sequel has known change, and often this was actually good. Metal Gear Solid, for instance, was a great sequel, but with a lot of changes from its predecessors. Every game in the Pro Evolution Soccer series has known several changes, and every game has come out for the better. Perfect Dark was different from Goldeneye, but it wasn't worse off (and yes, it was an official sequel). The Super Smash Bros. series has improved constantly. The subsequent releases of the mario games were often as good or better than its predecessors. And what about Europa Universalis? And Baldur's Gate? Baldur's Gate 2 was an improvement, although both still sucked.
You're letting EA rule your judgement over the entire game industry, and that's just silly.
You misunderstood me, as usual. I said that Fallout needs improvement rather than change. I wouldn't know about MGS, Perfect Dark and Super Smash Bros, since I don't play console games, but Europea Universalis 2 retains those aspects of previous sequels that were already perfect and improves those that needed improvement, while implementing a few new features that enhance the game experience without interfering with individual concepts that work fine. Example:

Fallout 3 gets a new, 3D engine and ability to craft items = improvement.

Fallout 3 gets real-time combat and topic-based dialogues in place of turn-based combat and dialogue trees = franchize-ruining change.

Deus Ex 2 = a poor sequel that doesn't improve over the original game, while unnecesarily changing its greatest aspects.

GTA: San Andreas = an awesome sequel that retains what fans loved about previous games while enhancing it with more features, greater freedom and improved interactivity.

In short, the point is this: keywords help a lot in letting the player do some of the guessing, and not the game. If you have to type in a keyword with a specific person to get to finish the quest, or accept the quest, instead of it being handed to you on a silver platter, it's a lot more challenging and a lot more rewarding too.
The keyword system should be implemented in a synergy with the normal dialogue tree system for it to work, though.
For a moment I thought you wanted to have keywords in place of the existing dialogue trees. If not, then I guess it's okay to have keywords as an additional dialogue feature, even though most players likely won't bother with it.

As for the 3d bit, my reaction was to your statement that Fallout should always remain isometric. I called Bullshit, you haven't responded.
Had you been paying more attention to my posts in the past few months, you would have noticed that I always have been a proponent of 3D Fallout with freely adjustable camera. However, I don't want Fallout to be turned into Neverwinter Nights in that respect. In NWN, camera behaves atrociously - when you are close to a wall it idiotically zooms in on you, no matter to what angle and zoom level you set it, it's always uncomfortable and forces you to pixel-hunt - simply put, it's a general pain in the ass. In Fallout 3 it should be possible to freely control the camera, but it should also retain some behaviour of the old 2D isometric camera, such as transparent walls and highlighting of concealed objects. If Bethesda can't deliver that, I'd rather have the traditional fixed angle isometric camera.
 
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