Fallout in Second Life

Bah! And here I was expecting some hot furry deathclaw cybersex.

Second Life seems pretty crazy. I was thinking of joining up for a while, but then I found out that it's more like an interactive chat room than anything else. The idea that people can create their own accessories and blablabla is kinda cool. Seems it has turned into a cybersex heaven by now though.
 
haha, someone smelled some money with Bethesda pushing FO3 down our throats soon enough.
 
Does this classify as a mod or as a commercial product?

The Linden $ has a real world monetary value (albeit small), therefore to me it is commercial - as the guy will be profiting from sales.... any bets on when Bethsoft/Zenimax's lawyers will land a cease & desist, or worse on him?

If he had released it for free, or simply relabelled the stuff to something more generic (eg 'PostApoc Armour') he would probably be safe, but as he was obviously being greedy and attempting to cash-in, I can't say I will give a damn if/when they throw the book at him.
 
Hi all. I'm the guy who owns the Fallout store in Second Life. It was my intention to get together an array of pics and submit them all myself, but someone apparently scooped me. So it goes.

Let me say that this little shop doesn't see me one red cent in the real world. The little money I do make from the store is used to pay the rent for the land upon which the store and my other builds sit. All of my builds in Second Life are Fallout based. So far I have Doc Morbid's hospital, Iguana Bob's stand, a few pieces of furniture and other items seen tossed all about the Fallout landscape. On a separate island from all that, I've also started a "mini Junktown" based on the old Van Buren/FO3 concept art (though it seems it wasn't Junktown at all, but that's fine).

Many people have passed the time without new Fallout in many different ways, some people making mods, fan art, etc. I found a way to continue my love for the game in Second Life, but with Second Life I found a financial burden of a game. To offset that, and create a game that pays for itself, I charge what are relatively low prices (by Second Life standards) for the things that I've made.

Fallout has a good fan base in Second Life and when I got there and saw that there was no outlet for it, I decided to try and make a few things. Everything I've made, I've made because it was something I wanted. Soon people started to ask where to get my things and many urged me to open the store, so that was what I did. Were this a simple cash in, I'd quite honestly not be making Fallout gear. Splinter Cell, Final Fantasy, anything furry, anything anime, those would all sell very well and make me actual real world money. Instead, I made this store as a fan service to my friends and fellow fans.

I knew going into this that some fans would judge me harshly, especially with how quickly some of us label anyone who touches Fallout an opportunist and simply call it a cash in. All of that is ok; you can't please everyone, even when you try. Anyway, I had hoped to submit the pictures of my builds all together in one large post, but it since someone scooped me, I'll have to step it up a bit. I'll post what pictures I have ready soon and try to finish up the rest shortly.
 
Jubal Quintus said:
<SNIP>
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I commend your effort on this behalf, but seriously dude - not many of us are going to play / do play Second Life. One of the reasons would be that it's an MMOG, but mostly because it lacks any concernable.. well.. desperation.

Not to mention that you are unable to actually play second life, you mostly just have a virtual character and you talk. No shooting anything, no statistics, no inventory, no quests, no NPCs, nothing.

So, while we appreciate the effort you're putting into this, it's mostly going to waste. :(
 
DarkLegacy, I understand what you are saying and you are half right. Second Life at it's most basic is just AIM with little people. As you move around and search though, you begin to find the other stuff, the RPGs (both freeform and structured) as well as the combat sims and other user created games. The catch is, it's all user created, Linden Labs doesn't provide any of it and thus doesn't really cover it in their marketing.

The sim (fancy name for a grid square island) that I have my store in is called The Wastelands. It's inspired by Fallout, Mad Max, Tank Girl, etc. The owner of this sim has an interesting game he made for the sim, wherein you enable a HUD he designed then search around the sim for boxes. In these boxes are pieces of salvage, like a piece of wood or a broken bottle. These things represent component items in larger things like guns, armor, med kits, clothes, ammo, etc. You place three of these items on the salvage machine and (if you got the recipe right) it gives you back an item. So this leads to bartering for parts, recipes, etc. as well as combat over who gets what when two people walk up on the same box. Add to this a semi free form RPG that is running in that sim and you have a self contained little world. It is still an MMO though, and it's really the greatest failure of the SL program.

The Wastelands are just one of many mini-worlds like that out there in SL. I just used it as my example because it's the one I know best. But, most of these things won't be seen on the surface, they take a little time for most users to get to, which means a great many never get there before they quit SL all together.

Anyway, I don't expect anyone who wasn't already playing SL to rush out and DL it. I just wanted the community to know it's there and a few of us are doing what we can to make a small piece of home for any Fallout fans that might be wandering around SL trying to dodge the creepy furry mating season that infests the place.
 
Jubal Quintus said:
Hi all. I'm the guy who owns the Fallout store in Second Life....
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Fair enough you may not be making a real life fortune - but you are still profiting, even if it is only covering your rent in game. I don't really have an axe to grind personally though - I don't play SL so can't say I really give a damn about having to buy it ingame, but I would say that in principle (as a former mod developer) it seems a tad lame. Call me old fashioned but simply having people download and use my content was reward enough, had some perks as well - we had our server donated to us by a generous fan.

Anyhow, your project sounds quite interesting so I will wish you luck with it, despite the above gripe. I still strongly suspect though that Beth will torpedo it.. they don't seem at all keen on anyone profiting, even marginally, from their IP.
 
Well, this little saga is over. Zenimax (who watches this site like starving hawks) have issued a take down notice. I'm obliged to comply and that is that. I'll get pictures of my Fallout buildings and what not before the land is lost and they poof into digital void. It was a nice run. A sad day for Fallout fans in SL, but there was really only about 50 of us. Oh well.
 
Jubal Quintus said:
Well, this little saga is over. Zenimax (who watches this site like starving hawks) have issued a take down notice. I'm obliged to comply and that is that. I'll get pictures of my Fallout buildings and what not before the land is lost and they poof into digital void. It was a nice run. A sad day for Fallout fans in SL, but there was really only about 50 of us. Oh well.
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Concrete proof of my claims that Bethesda/Zenimax "watch this website like starving hawks."

Hahahaha, the crazy one is right! How about that! :P
 
See now, nixing that shitty d20 thing was okay, 'cause it was shitty and was hurting the Fallout name and someone wanted to make money out of that.
This (regardless of how gay SL may be) sucks.

EDIT: Added a missing "how".
 
DirtyDreamDesigner said:
See now, nixing that shitty d20 thing was okay, 'cause it was shitty and was hurting the Fallout name and someone wanted to make money out of that.
This (regardless of gay SL may be) sucks.
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At least we can never say that you are dishonest. ;)
 
Okay, this is a response to numerous posts on this thread, a response that I imagine will give Jubal a pleasant surprise, as we don't always see eye to eye, but I joined NMA specifically to lend him my support.

First and foremost, to those of you who consider Jubal to be exploitative and opportunistic, you should consider carefully his own words. What he has done in SecondLife is simply make his own fan creations publicly available. There is a cost (an extremely nominal one, at that), yes, but this cost only goes to maintain the availablility of his fan creations.

Secondly, a response to those who believe that what he has done is in some way illegal, as well as to those lurkers who have on behalf of Bethesda/Zenimax reported this action as such. What Jubal has done consists almost entirely of things that are either not copyright infringement at all, or easily qualify under Fair Use, as far as I can tell. I admit, I'm no copyright lawyer, but from what appears to be one of the most oft-referenced cases pertaining to fair use I've managed to find, Kelly v. Arriba Soft, it would appear that Jubal's transformation of Fallout imagines from largely 2D images to the 3D objects and images in SecondLife qualifies as sufficiently transformative to be considered Fair Use, amongst a myriad of other things.

Third, a 'response' directed specifically to the people at Bethesda/Zenimax, who do not appear to have posted thus far, but obviously have given some attention to this thread. Consider the following: What Jubal Quintus has done is not only completely harmless, in that he is not only not making a profit himself, but he is not causing any damages to a company with no product interest in the platform he is using, but it is also a form of free marketing. Other companies have, in the past, PAID talented content creators on SecondLife for the sort of brand awareness creation Jubal is doing for free. Take, for example, the Smokin' Aces game that ran wild through much of SecondLife's user database prior to the film's release. Not to mention development costs, Universal Pictures spent approximately USD$3,750 on prize money for the in-world promotional game, whereas Jubal's creations have asked nothing of Bethesda/Zenimax. A wise marketing department would, rather than allowing the company to attempt to bully an avid fan, seek to encourage Jubal to create officially liscensed merchandise to create the brand awareness and loyalty that, for great numbers of would-be fans of the franchise, is sorely lacking.

Finally, again to Bethesda/Zenimax, consider that the more fans are discouraged from supporting a franchise they enjoy and charish through shared fandom, the more anger and spite develops and ferments. While Fallout 3's eventual release is likely to have its share of illegitimate copies circulating the internet, it should be considered that every action such as this adds at least one more gamer to the group that would rather not pay such a company for a game.

Now, since I've created an account anyway, I'll likely be on the NMA forums more often, but first things first, I had to make sure Jubal knew he had some support, and I hope that my response will encourage some people to rethink their attitudes and lend him their own.
 
Pietro Moskvitch said:
Okay, this is a response to numerous posts on this thread, a response that I imagine will give Jubal a pleasant surprise, as we don't always see eye to eye, but I joined NMA specifically to lend him my support.

First and foremost, to those of you who consider Jubal to be exploitative and opportunistic, you should consider carefully his own words. What he has done in SecondLife is simply make his own fan creations publicly available. There is a cost (an extremely nominal one, at that), yes, but this cost only goes to maintain the availablility of his fan creations.

Secondly, a response to those who believe that what he has done is in some way illegal, as well as to those lurkers who have on behalf of Bethesda/Zenimax reported this action as such. What Jubal has done consists almost entirely of things that are either not copyright infringement at all, or easily qualify under Fair Use, as far as I can tell. I admit, I'm no copyright lawyer, but from what appears to be one of the most oft-referenced cases pertaining to fair use I've managed to find, Kelly v. Arriba Soft, it would appear that Jubal's transformation of Fallout imagines from largely 2D images to the 3D objects and images in SecondLife qualifies as sufficiently transformative to be considered Fair Use, amongst a myriad of other things.
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Actually, you're wrong. He's built a commercial venture around this, since those SL$ can be transferred more or less directly to real-life bucks. In doing this, he is cutting into Bethesda's business opportunities, and Bethesda is obligated by law to do something about this, lest they lose their IP. It is irrelevant that he doesn't actually make a profit.

Regardless of what you think in this matter, or whether or not it was 'immoral' for Jubal to put this up in the first place (I doubt it), Bethesda has no choice but to act.
Pietro said:
Third, a 'response' directed specifically to the people at Bethesda/Zenimax, who do not appear to have posted thus far, but obviously have given some attention to this thread.
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Actually, this was posted on the Beth forums before it was posted here.
Pietro said:
Consider the following: What Jubal Quintus has done is not only completely harmless, in that he is not only not making a profit himself, but he is not causing any damages to a company with no product interest in the platform he is using, but it is also a form of free marketing. Other companies have, in the past, PAID talented content creators on SecondLife for the sort of brand awareness creation Jubal is doing for free. Take, for example, the Smokin' Aces game that ran wild through much of SecondLife's user database prior to the film's release. Not to mention development costs, Universal Pictures spent approximately USD$3,750 on prize money for the in-world promotional game, whereas Jubal's creations have asked nothing of Bethesda/Zenimax. A wise marketing department would, rather than allowing the company to attempt to bully an avid fan, seek to encourage Jubal to create officially liscensed merchandise to create the brand awareness and loyalty that, for great numbers of would-be fans of the franchise, is sorely lacking.

Finally, again to Bethesda/Zenimax, consider that the more fans are discouraged from supporting a franchise they enjoy and charish through shared fandom, the more anger and spite develops and ferments. While Fallout 3's eventual release is likely to have its share of illegitimate copies circulating the internet, it should be considered that every action such as this adds at least one more gamer to the group that would rather not pay such a company for a game.

Now, since I've created an account anyway, I'll likely be on the NMA forums more often, but first things first, I had to make sure Jubal knew he had some support, and I hope that my response will encourage some people to rethink their attitudes and lend him their own.
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Bethesda could not have hired Jubal to do this work without significant hassle. If they had let him do this free of charge, they'd lose the right to license their IP, so they really had no choice in the matter.


Also, welcome to the forums.
 
but it is also a form of free marketing. Other companies have, in the past, PAID talented content creators on SecondLife for the sort of brand awareness creation Jubal is doing for free.
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This is true, let's see if in the future they understand this. For now it makes sense for Zenimax to do the move they did, they are very worried with anything resembling payed downloadable content, maybe the Fallout SL community can get some sort of a deal with them, why not try and see what can be arranged?
 
I'll type a more extensive reply in the morning, but I looked at the thread on my way to bed. Ziltoid, I don't understand where you've got this impression that choosing not to enforce IP rights equals a forfeiture of them. It's not one in the same. As far as a commercial venture goes, what he charges amounts basically to asking for a donation to keep them available, which the community he operates in on SecondLife is now encouraging him to do if Bethesda/Zenisoft continues to give him a hard time, as in that case, they'd no longer have a leg to stand on, and what they have now is already flimsy enough.
 
If I'm not mistaken, in some cases one has to use (publish) his IP in order to maintain it.
 
Pietro Moskvitch said:
I'll type a more extensive reply in the morning, but I looked at the thread on my way to bed. Ziltoid, I don't understand where you've got this impression that choosing not to enforce IP rights equals a forfeiture of them. It's not one in the same.
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Yes it is. If you allow a commercial venture to 'make money' off of your own IP without licensing it from you and you do not act, you are forfeiting the right to enforce that IP in other cases. This is a very simple fact.

Pietro Moskvitch said:
As far as a commercial venture goes, what he charges amounts basically to asking for a donation to keep them available, which the community he operates in on SecondLife is now encouraging him to do if Bethesda/Zenisoft continues to give him a hard time, as in that case, they'd no longer have a leg to stand on, and what they have now is already flimsy enough.
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The commercial viability and profit of a venture is not relevant to the issue of commercial use of IP. Regardless of his intention (purely covering the cost of offering this), he *is* asking money for it. This means that Bethesda *must* act. If he had offered these costumes free of charge and requested that players donate money to keep this running while not asking money for the costumes themselves, then it would have been a different matter.
 
Pietro Moskvitch said:
I'll type a more extensive reply in the morning, but I looked at the thread on my way to bed. Ziltoid, I don't understand where you've got this impression that choosing not to enforce IP rights equals a forfeiture of them. It's not one in the same. As far as a commercial venture goes, what he charges amounts basically to asking for a donation to keep them available, which the community he operates in on SecondLife is now encouraging him to do if Bethesda/Zenisoft continues to give him a hard time, as in that case, they'd no longer have a leg to stand on, and what they have now is already flimsy enough.
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You have to understand how lawyers think. Zenimax is a business, and it's lawyers are paid to keep it's IP safe.
It doesn't matter if someone's charging 1 penny for Fallout related goods, they have to act on principle.
Imagine if someone starts selling Fallout related stuff in such a way that threatens Bethesda's IP. Zenimax will act against them, but then they can point out that they let this SL incident slip by and cause hassle in court.
Not that this might ever happen, but lawyers don't take chances.
 
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