Fallout's Assault Rifle (split from Tactics mod thread)

[Corpse]

And no AK-47, especially on 7,62mm NATO ammunition.

I agree about the weapon not using 7.62NATO, but why would you not fix it to use its appropriate ammo (7.62x39mm), is it not fallouty enough?

If that is the case, how is a post-WWII weapon which has been produced since 1947 (hence its name: Avtomat Kalashnikov-47) and become the most popular assault rifle ever to be used not fallouty?

 

[Silencer]

Well, since Fallout's USA was xenophibic 50's-like and strongly anti-communist I imagine, and not the Russian mafia permeated USA of today, I imagine they would have no reason to import Kalashnikovs (regardless of how widespread and functional they are) over their own products.

 

[Corpse]

So tell me, why did they call their assault rifle the AK-112. What are US forces doing with a foreign rifle design that is obviously Russian made?

 

[Silencer]

Well, I can sense there's going to be a fruitful discussion eligible for the GF forum and I also sense you're luring me into a trap, but I'll try to answer.

Firstly, let us estabilish that "AK-112"!="AK-47"

Now, remember "Wasteland"? (I know it's not the same universe, but I want to demonstrate a point) On the topic of assault rifles

AK-97 Assault Rifle: Created in the image of the legendary AK-47, the AK-97 is the latest in the assault rifle line. It was created for the Comintern Combine nations of Europe and Africa, but saw large distribution throughout the world before the war. It is chambered for 7.62mm ammo and fires from a 30-bullet clip. This highly-respected weapon is fairly commonplace.

M1989A1 NATO Assault Rifle: The M1989A1 is big brother to the original M16A1. It was
rechambered to accept the same 7.62mm ammo that the AK series of rifles uses so troops could use captured Soviet ammo. Although assault rifle users greatly preferred the American ammo for its damage capabilities, the military implemented this change in anticipation of front-line ammo shortages. With this arrangement, a solider could kill an enemy and replenish his supply at the same time.

Now, the existence of AK-97 would seem to support your point of view about the AK-112. However this could have also been a weapon similar to M1989A1 NATO - based off on Soviet designs and ready to use Soviet ammo.

However, this falls in the face of a simple fact that the AK-112 used 5.56 ammo, which is American. So it must have been designed by Americans. The assumption that it might have been designed by the Soviets to use during an invasion of USA in a reverse-Wasteland scenario seems far fetched to me.

Therefore, the existence of AK-112 is insubstantial to our conundrum of whether there could have bek that many Kalashnikovs or Kalashnikow colones.

We don't even know if there was a Soviet invasion of USA, and I suppose there would be some foreshadowing in either game if there was one. So I think there is no solid reason for a large number of Kalashnikovs, especially rechambered to NATO ammunition, to exist in the game.

 

[Corpse]

Well, if that was the case they would have used a local designation for it like AR-112 or M-112, and the AK-112 is 5mm, not 5.56x45mm (.223)

Don't take this the wrong way, not trying to have a go at you or lure you into any trap, but the reason why they did it is because they obviously don't have a clue about weapons and are probably too lazy to research facts.

Take this statement for instance:

1989A1 NATO Assault Rifle: The M1989A1 is big brother to the original M16A1. It was
rechambered to accept the same 7.62mm ammo that the AK series of rifles uses so troops could use captured Soviet ammo. Although assault rifle users greatly preferred the American ammo for its damage capabilities.

Ok, Russian intermediate ammo is 7.62x39mm the last is the legth of the case; NATO ammo is 7.62x51mm.

So assuming they made an adjustable chamber so the rifle can fire both rounds:
1- the NATO round is much more powerful than a 7.62x39mm; if the rifle was made from an AK design then it would be a gas operated weapon (uses a piston that moves the bolt carrier when the escaping gases of a fired round are tapped from the barrel to push on it) the force generated by the gases of a NATO round would be stronger, if you fired it from an AK barrel, the pressure would be excessive for the piston, or if it was optimised to fire NATO, then the 7.62x39mm would not generate enough force to push the piston and complete the firing cycle.
2- the projectiles are not equal in weight or size, (7.62x39mm projectile is a bit longer), and would probably use different rifling twist to optimise the bullet spin so a different barrel may be required.
3- 7.62x39mm AKs have been replaced with 5.45x39mm AK-74 models in the russian army as far as I know; 7.62x39mm models are still used but mostly by other former Warsaw Pact and African/Middle Eastern nations.

EDIT: Oops, I think I misread that statement leading me to think the rifle used both cartridges. Bloody sleep deprivation, please ignore 1 and 2 but 3 and its designation would definitely be different.

Just look at other AK clones built by other nations, they don't use the AK prefix.

Czech: Vz58
Hungary: AMD-65
Former Yugoslavia: M-70 and M-80
PRC: Type-56 and 81
Finland: Rk-60, 62, etc

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

So tell me, why did they call their assault rifle the AK-112. What are US forces doing with a foreign rifle design that is obviously Russian made?

There's no evidence that it's issued by the US,

{2301}{}{An AK-112 5mm Assault Rifle. An old military model, out of use around the time of the war. Can fire single-shot or burst, using the high velocity 5mm rounds. Min ST: 5.}

nowhere I can think of says it was ever issued to the US forces. Most probably the few in Fallout were souvenirs from a previous conflict.

 

[Silencer]

and the AK-112 is 5mm, not 5.56x45mm (.223)

Whoops, sorry, my bad. Still, it's an American Remington round, isn't it? And quite distinct from whatever Kałasznikow could use.

Don't take this the wrong way,

Don't worry, I'm not

Take this statement for instance:

1989A1 NATO Assault Rifle: (...) assault rifle users greatly preferred the American ammo for its damage capabilities.

Maybe this was meant to convey "they preferred the original version of the weapon" than "they preferred to use American ammo with this weapon" ?

7.62x39mm AKs have been replaced with 5.45x39mm AK-74 models in the russian army as far as I know; 7.62x39mm models are still used but mostly by other former Warsaw Pact and African/Middle Eastern nations.

Again, this is our world's story, not neccesarily Fallout's.

Anyway, I hope you know what I mean being so opposed to Kałasznikows in Fallout's USA whatsoever.

 

[Corpse]

Given that there is no M-16 in the FO1 or 2, then it would stand to reason that the AK-112 was intended to be the army standard rifle, even if obsolete. Or are you going to tell me they were using FALs, or G11s now?

Whoops, sorry, my bad. Still, it's an American Remington round, isn't it? And quite distinct from whatever Kałasznikow could use.

The 5mm round in FO was made up, just like the AK-112.
my guess is they used a 5.45mm AK-74 as inspiration

Again, this is our world's story, not neccesarily Fallout's.

Anyway, I hope you know what I mean being so opposed to Kałasznikows in Fallout's USA whatsoever.

I know, but if they have the AK-112, why would they not have the earlier 47 model?.

 

[Silencer]

Well, there aren't that few. I too would go along the lines of the AK-112 being the army standard rifle, using American rounds. Although the name and design seem strange.

Also, there weren't that few, and until Fallout 2, there practically wasn't any alternative to the Assault Rifle.

 

[Corpse]

Still that doesn't work, and if it was a US rifle it would fire 5.56x45mm aka .223 NATO, not 5mm.

Ask any US army ordinance expert and they'll tell you the same thing.

A US rifle with designation AK? WTF...

It ain't gonna happen buddy.

 

[Silencer]

You're not telling me there are no American 5mm rounds, are you? Because what about these these? Agreed, they're not military rounds.

And to my mind a basic military rifle in Fallout would be shooting 7.62 mm; The reason is that 5.56 mm ammo wasn't NATO standard before 1964, so, if we want to maintain the 50's consistency...

Of course, I'm not saying it couldn't have been 5.56 mm - they could have switched just as we did - or they could have even switched to a 5 mm ammo instead.

 

[dude_obj]

Webster's dictionary needs to add a new word: fallouty

 

[Silencer]

Heh, you wrote "Webster's". American

 

[fallout_expert105]

I always thought 5mm (in the Fallout games obviously) was short for 5.45x39mm soviat, I mean they made the other round pretty clear (.223 is the american 5.56x45mm nato). And the AK-112 seems like a Kalashnikov assault rifle. And even though it's supposed to be a 1950's interpretation of the future the soviat union doesn't necessarily need to exist, it is the future. You can still have 50's culture/future dynamics with out making everything exactly like the 1950's. There should still be the advancement of nations and various groups, even if it is 1950's it would kinda be primitive to stay soviat. But hell that's just my opinion, maybe the soviat union stayed soviat and there was an invasion, the AK-112 would have been the soviat troop's weapons left over from the war. After an invasion a lot of people are gonna die and leave their weapons behind there ya go.

 

[Corpse]

You're not telling me there are no American 5mm rounds, are you? Because what about these these? Agreed, they're not military rounds..

Ok why would you make an assault rifle that fires a 5x26mm 36gr bullets? what are you trying to kill, cockroaches?

This is a varmint round, not even suitable as a hunting round unless your hunting wabbits.

And to my mind a basic military rifle in Fallout would be shooting 7.62 mm; The reason is that 5.56 mm ammo wasn't NATO standard before 1964, so, if we want to maintain the 50's consistency...

So explain to me, what is .223 NATO ammo doing there?

Just some facts: the last 7.62x51mm Assault rifle to be used by the US army was the M14; this had a very short service life and was soon replaced by the M16 in 5.56x45mm M-193 cartridge which was developed from the .223 Remington (developed in the late 50's).

The logic behind this is that its easier to train someone to fire a 5.56mm rifle as opposed to a full rifle caliber like 7.62mm. For this reason 7.62mm was kept only for sniper rifles, and machine guns, but no more assault rifles in this caliber were produced for the army.

After Vietnam, it was found the 5.56mm M193 is rather innefective, there were reports of VC shooting back after being hit multiple times. (if the M193 is not up to this role, then how can you expect a 5mm Remington centrefire AR to be produced)

For this purpose, NATO adopted a new cartridge developed in Belgium called the 5.56mm SS-109; though the cartridge may be the same size, the projectiles are different, the SS-109 is heavier (70gr) than the M-193 (55gr).

After this, the M16 was quickly optimised to fire the new round and the M16A2 was born. The A2 version was designed to fire single shot and 3-round burst only though, the reason for this is that during Vietnam, US soldiers tended to waste tonnes of ammo saturating areas with full auto fire.

Nowadays all NATO 5.56mm rifles fire the SS-109 (M-855 in US, I think ).

And if you want to keep the 50's consistency, the trend of experimenting with smaller cartridges would have started long before then.

 

[fallout_expert105]

.223 (5.56x45mm nato) a varmint round? Wrong, the .223 may not have the impact energy, and power of a 7.62x51mm nato or a 7.62x39mm soviat but it certainly isn't a varmint round. Apon impact with the human body the .223 round goes into a tumbling motion gradually spliting apart into fragements of copper and lead. This gives it the potential of ripping several inches through flesh, muscle, and tissue. It just doesn't have the initial impact energy/stopping power or mass/weight to kill someone as quickly or shockingly as a .308 but it can kill. The above mentioned .223's impact characteristics can cause advanced physical internal injuries, cause an enormous amount of shock, trauma, and deadly exit wounds. Please research a little extra next time. But the 5.56x45mm ss109 also has a partial steel core and the round itself goes deeper into the cartridge without changing the demensions. This way the round has enhanced penetration capability, is longer, and a little bit more powerful, but can still fit in the M-16 assault rifle without changing or converting it in any way.

 

[WraithUV]

You're quite right on everything you said there Fallout_expert.

Only one problem. He wasn't talking about the 5.56x45 nato rounds.

He was talking about 5x26mm 36 grain rounds, which have considerably less power and a much lighter projectile as well. Sure, they can kill a person, but they're definitely below what I'd consider adequate as military ordinance.

-Wraith

 

[Silencer]

Ok why would you make an assault rifle that fires a 5x26mm 36gr bullets? what are you trying to kill, cockroaches?

This is a varmint round, not even suitable as a hunting round unless your hunting wabbits.

Uhm , I dunno, but the Assault Rifle did suck with AP ammo especially On the other hand , the same type of ammo is used in miniguns, so I suppose this must have been quite different ammunition and also military grade - something that doesn't exist in our world.

And yes, the .223 is there, but we don't know which one was the NATO standard in that timeline. Although I'd suspect it was the fictional 5mm and not .223.

As you say, the .233 was developed in the 50's, but didn't become standard until mid-60's.

Therefore, I don't have a problem with facts that you've laid out, but as I suppose we all do, I have a problem with Kałasznikows or Kałasznikow clones in Fallout's USA using anything other than 7.62x39mm. You have to agree that even if we were to find some of AK-47's, they'd be firing Soviet rounds.

Although we could also say that AK-112 was just a Soviet weapon designed to use the fictional 5mm NATO caliber.

 

[Corpse]

Fallout_expert105: like wraith UV pointed, I was referring to the 5mm Remington centrefire, not the .223.

Silencer: I have already said the 5mm round in the game was made up, just like the rifle, miniguns, and other weapons.

And the US army would have purchased AKs to testfire them in the 50's more likely anyway, so I just don't see what the fuss about having r/l weapons should matter.

I don't see anyone complaining about the Desert Eagle or in FO2 the P90, jackhammer, CAWS, etc...

 

[Morpoggel]

The Assault Rifle also kinda looks like the HK33...