Final Analysis: Fallout 3D or not 3D????? Comments welcome

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RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

Once again, what does that have to do with the rendering engine? It doesn't have a thing to do with it.

I hate to break this to ya, but they're going to have to do all of that code work anyway if they just go with a brand new, from-scratch 3D engine!

Fallout Tactics at least has some of Tim Cain's original code in it.

"Games lose sales for using sprites."

Yeah, that's true.. It's really hurt Blizzard's sales bad.
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

Diablo 2 is not even partial 3D. Mr. Jones doesn't seem to have a clue as to the nature of what 3D is, Skie. :)

Let's see if I can make this clear. For a game to be 3D, at least partially, something in the game has to be composed of polygons which are given spacial coordinates and then translated on to a 2D screen in real time, which is basically the screen.

The key words to that paragraph were "polygons" and "spacial".

Diablo 2 has nothing in terms of spacial coordinates, it's extremely planar. Nothing in the game really has a true height.

Also, nothing in the game is composed of polygons which are being translated in real time.

"If you think a game in 2-3 years can survive being 2D, when games right now are frowned upon for being 2d, then you're very diluted."

Actually, a lot of the successful games of this summer are 2D. IWD, Diablo 2, Warlords: BattleCry, Caesar 3 and Pharoah, BG2, and so on.

To say that in 2-3 years, all games will be 3D is pretty diluted because a lot of games simply don't require it, and look better without it.
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

>Diablo 2 is not even partial 3D. Mr. Jones doesn't seem
>to have a clue as to the nature of what 3D is, Skie. :)

I beg to differ. Computational mathematics is my speciality, and given that I am currently developing a plasma based 3D viewing platform, I like to delude myself as being an expert in the subject :)

>Let's see if I can make this clear. For a game
>to be 3D, at least partially, something in the game
>has to be composed of polygons which are given spacial
>coordinates and then translated on to a 2D screen in real time, which is basically the screen.

That's a rather standard definition, although substitute polygons for pixels, and you have an odd outcome don't you think? :) Let's clear this up: the "3D at all costs" brigade trumpet that a game must be 3D to be a winner. D2 was billed as a 3D game by the marketing people, not the development team (since it can utilise 3D hardware). Consequently, 3D becomes nothing more than a marketing gimmick

>Actually, a lot of the successful games of this summer are
>2D. IWD, Diablo 2, Warlords: BattleCry, Caesar 3 and Pharoah,
>BG2, and so on.

Yet the 3D brigade trumpet that F2 "failed at the Box Office" because of its failure to go 3D... HOWEVER, if one reads the reviews, (and talks to F1 veterans who bought F2), most marked it down because:

1. First Release was buggy
2. Mature themes in the game. Most mags warned that readers that F2 was unsuitable for most of the family. The back of the F2 box certainly reflects this
3. The game engine was considered a plus in most reviewers books -- we wanted "more of the same" -- and we got it.

But back to my original post... what can be done to tweak the 2D display?

- higher resolutions? Sounds good,m especially for those of us with 21 inch monitors?
- bigger sprites?
- use of 3D hardware for lighting etc?
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

>Why wouldn't it be? I can't imagine 3D making a 'large scale RPG' more difficult to develop.

I'm not trying to be Socrates here... More 3D=More work! ;)

>Why can't this be done with a 3D engine? Why can't there be complex dialog trees and a deep story if there's a 3D engine?

Of course it can be done, but from the _development_ point of view, it does create some hurdles for an open ended RPG game.

>Yeah, and BG's graphics were fairly up to date at that
>time. Compare them to Fallout 2's, a game that
>came out about 2 months earlier. BG was also
>very action oriented with multiplayer.

Was BG as buggy as FO2? Was FO2 found unsuitable by many reviewers because of its mature content? Is multiplayer really such a big deal? When I buy a game, I look at the screenshots on the box. FO2 looks quite nice to me.. sure, on my 21 inch monitor, I really would like a higher resolution... :)
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

"I beg to differ. Computational mathematics is my speciality, and given that I am currently developing a plasma based 3D viewing platform, I like to delude myself as being an expert in the subject :)"

Yet you seem easily confused as to wether or not Diablo 2 is 3D or not.

And by "Computational mathematics", I'll assume you mean, "Numerical Methodology", which is, in layman's terms, the study of approximating complex math to something a computer can handle.

It's not that hard of a subject. Most math classes will touch on the simple approximations of the more difficult functions for those times you just can't solve them any other way, such as complex integrals and differential equations. I'd say any recent engineering graduate could hop right in to that area with very little need to brush up on the involved subjects.

"That's a rather standard definition, although substitute polygons for pixels, and you have an odd outcome don't you think? :)"

No, those are called voxels, they've been around for years. Spectrum Holobyte's original Falcon used voxels, way back in the early 90s.

Novalogic makes some fairly good use of their voxel technology in their Delta Force series, their Armored Fist series, and their copter sims.

Although Delta Force: Land Warrior will be a hybrid voxel/polygon engine. The terrain and features will be voxel, the indoors will be polygon.
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

<< More 3D=More work! >>

I'd really like to see something to back this up.

>Why can't this be done with a 3D engine? Why can't there be complex dialog trees and a deep story if there's a 3D engine?

<< Of course it can be done, but from the _development_ point of view, it does create some hurdles for an open ended RPG game. >>

In what way? Why would it be harder to create a dialog tree in a 3D engine? How is it harder to incorperate a deep story for a 3D engine?

<< Is multiplayer really such a big deal? >>

Yes, according to this quote:
Regarding Multiplayer... BOOO hisss! I don't think you're going to see many CRPGs in the future released without some form of multiplayer functionality. It's just too large a portion of the gaming market to ignore. This being said, I think you're already assuming that we're going to compromise what we do to fit it within a multiplayer system... give us some credit, man. -Scott Warner

Here's the link:
http://www.dirty.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000091.html

<< When I buy a game, I look at the screenshots on the box. >>

And your point? This doesn't mean your way is the only way people decide to buy games.

<< FO2 looks quite nice to me.. sure, on my 21 inch monitor, I really would like a higher resolution... :) >>

Really? On my moniter Fallout 2 looks pretty dated. It's not nearly the size of yours. Graphically Fallout 2, when it was released, would only be about a 4 out of 10.

Skie
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-00 AT 05:48AM (GMT)[p]<< Once again, what does that have to do with the rendering engine? It doesn't have a thing to do with it.
I hate to break this to ya, but they're going to have to do all of that code work anyway if they just go with a brand new, from-scratch 3D engine!

Fallout Tactics at least has some of Tim Cain's original code in it. >>

Yeah, your right; it probably wouldn't take any longer to code it in one engine or another. But, by the time the game was finished being developed it would be exrememly dated.

<< Yeah, that's true.. It's really hurt Blizzard's sales bad >>

I already went over this. Go here:
http://fallout.gamestats.com/forum/index.cgi?az=show_thread&omm=19&om=550&forum=ForumID5

Skie
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

<< Actually, a lot of the successful games of this summer are 2D. IWD, Diablo 2, Warlords: BattleCry, Caesar 3 and Pharoah, BG2, and so on. >>

Yes, and alot of genres are going 3D for the sake of going 3D. Look at the number of RPGs on the horizon that are 3D. Arcanum looks to be the last 2D RPG. Does that tell you anything?

<< To say that in 2-3 years, all games will be 3D is pretty diluted because a lot of games simply don't require it, and look better without it. >>

Not all games, but definately most genres. RPG, RTS, action/FPS (would a 2D FPS even sell?), sport, and simulation games (Racing, flying, not SimCity) will be 3D only. You might find some turn-based strategy games, puzzle, and adventure games that are 2D; but even these genre's are heading in towards 3D.

Skie
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

<< Yet the 3D brigade trumpet that F2 "failed at the Box Office" because of its failure to go 3D... >>

Wow, talk about twisting peoples words. It's been stated that part of the reason F2 didn't do as well was the graphics were dated. No one ever said Fallout 2 failed because it was not 3D. Had the graphics been on par with Baldur's Gate, it probably would have sold better. Although, that would've caused them to create a new engine, which would have caused the game to be released much later.

<< HOWEVER, if one reads the reviews, (and talks to F1 veterans who bought F2), most marked it down because:

1. First Release was buggy
2. Mature themes in the game. Most mags warned that readers that F2 was unsuitable for most of the family. The back of the F2 box certainly reflects this >>

Your right, these are also reasons why the game didn't sell as well as it could have. It would've helped if BG hadn't been released on top of it.

<< 3. The game engine was considered a plus in most reviewers books >>

I'm not sure what you're reading, because even Fallout (1) took a bit of a hit by reviewers for it's graphics.

<< But back to my original post... what can be done to tweak the 2D display?

- higher resolutions? Sounds good,m especially for those of us with 21 inch monitors?
- bigger sprites?
- use of 3D hardware for lighting etc? >>

I'm not sure why you're pushing this issue. Fallout 3 will require a new engine regardless. BIS has stated that 3D is an important feature for a game to be successful. Why else would they be using the LithTech engine for their next game?

I'm a fan of 2D games. At this point, I think many of them look better than 3D games. I'm also realistic. I can see that 3D is important to the masses, and that for Fallout 3 to be successful it will go 3D.

Skie
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

>Yet you seem easily confused as to wether or not Diablo 2 is 3D or not.

The 3D brigade adopts the position that Fallouts' visuals were somehow lacking, that F2 "sold less because of its 2D graphics engine (forget the original releases' bugginess or its mature content, which most people adverted to). Utilising 3D hardware, like D2, would probably be a baseline solution, but my suggestion was that this would not necessarily create a great Fallout game. This may prove difficult to grasp without following the thread.. I may have mixed up "3D" and "eyecandy" somewhere along the line.

>And by "Computational mathematics", I'll assume you mean, "Numerical Methodology", which is, in layman's terms, the study of approximating complex math to something a computer can handle.

CM encompasses what you could call NM. Completely off topic, but it meshes well with my theretical grounding in chemistry and physics and the work myself and my team are doing now -- I'm pleased with that. If you are hinting that I claim to know more about developing a 2D or 3D RPG game engine for a home PC merely because of my greater familiarity with "CM" per se, then you are wrong.

>It's not that hard of a subject. Most math classes will touch
>on the simple approximations of the more difficult functions for
>those times you just can't solve them any other way, such as
>complex integrals and differential equations. I'd say any recent
>engineering graduate could hop right in to that area with very
>little need to brush up on the involved subjects.

There's a lot more to it than that: you're describing what I would call "entry level" basics (with primarily operations research applications). Much of CM's recent advances, however, aren't that widely known, either because of their military applications, patenting difficulties, and failing that they still need more work! _But this is off topic, and I'm not trying to entice you into postgraduate study!_

>>"That's a rather standard definition, although substitute polygons for
>>pixels, and you have an odd outcome don't you think? :)"

>No, those are called voxels, they've been around for years. Spectrum
>Holobyte's original Falcon used voxels, way back in the early 90s.

You missed my point. I'll take care to use more precise language in the future if this will help.
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

>Wow, talk about twisting peoples words. It's been stated that
>part of the reason F2 didn't do as well was
the graphics were dated.
>No one ever said Fallout 2 failed because it was
>not 3D. Had the graphics been on par with
>Baldur's Gate, it probably would
>have sold better.

I did not mean to misrepresent your opinion, but I assumed that the 640 by 480, 256 colour display was not to your liking. So you are not criticising the use of a 2D engine, but rather the 2d artwork used in both Fallouts?

>Your right, these are also reasons why the game didn't sell
>as well as it could have. It would've helped
>if BG hadn't been released on top of it.

Correct, but I'm sure that many buyers took both F2 and BG home.. I did! In any event, the publisher decided when the games were to be released.

>I'm not sure what you're reading,
>because even Fallout (1) took a bit of a hit
>by reviewers for it's graphics.

I remember other reveiwers saying that F1's graphics captured the post-apocalyptic feel of nuclear holocaust really well. F3 should have better 2D artwork if that is where the developers choose to go. Reworking a 2D engine to display a higher resolution and better color depth is an easy way to address "dated graphics". Granted, the artists will have a harder time, but bugs usually arise from coding.
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

It tells me you haven't done your homework. Throne of Darkness and Gothic are due out middle to late 2001, and they're 2D.

A better question is, how are these 2D RPGs fairing versus the 3D ones? So far, with the exception of Final Fantasy 7 and 8 and the MMORPGs, all the 3D RPGs haven't had much commercial success. Then you have games like IWD, Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, and Diablo 2 which are selling well over 500,000 units.

I don't even think a 2D first person shooter is possible, unless it's done like FTL's Dungeon Master(1987).
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Sep-27-00 AT 09:10AM (GMT)[p]<< Throne of Darkness and Gothic are due out middle to late 2001, and they're 2D. >>

So a total of what 3? 4? 2D RPGs currently being developed. Compared to the 30+ that are 3D?

<< A better question is, how are these 2D RPGs fairing versus the 3D ones? >>

Didn't Dues Ex do fairly well? Is it fair to exclude MMORPGs? They are RPGs, and they are selling well. So FF7, FF8, Everquest, and Asheron's Call. All successful games concerning sales. I'm not sure how it faired on sales, but System Shock 2 was given RPG of the year by a few gaming mags.

If you like I can throw exceptions around like you're doing. Except for Dialbo 1 & 2 and Infinity engine games, the 2D market hasn't had much success.

Skie
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

<< I did not mean to misrepresent your opinion, but I assumed that the 640 by 480, 256 colour display was not to your liking. So you are not criticising the use of a 2D engine, but rather the 2d artwork used in both Fallouts? >>

For the most part, yes. Fallout 2 sales suffered for a number of reasons. Dated graphics is one of those reasons.

<< I remember other reveiwers saying that F1's graphics captured the post-apocalyptic feel of nuclear holocaust really well. >>

But, the engine was already dated when it was released. It didn't affect the game much as Fallout 2, but it did affect them.

<< F3 should have better 2D artwork if that is where the developers choose to go. Reworking a 2D engine to display a higher resolution and better color depth is an easy way to address "dated graphics". >>

This is what I would prefer. But, I can't see it happening. 3D is just too much of a selling point.

Skie
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

>>For the most part, yes. Fallout 2 sales suffered for
>a number of reasons. Dated graphics is one of those reasons.

I would say this is a minor reason. It pales into significance alsongside the game's mature elements that involve you "pimping your spouse for chump change" (among other things). THis takes most women and younger family members out of the set of potential purchasers. Reviews clearly advert to this. Add the bugs resulting from a desperate attempt to pre-empt BG, and dated graphics is the last of F2's worries!

> F3 should have better 2D artwork if that is where the developers choose to go. Reworking a 2D engine to display a higher resolution and better color depth is an easy way to address "dated graphics". >>

>This is what I would prefer. But, I can't see
>it happening. 3D is just too much of a
>selling point.

Yes, Fallout 3D does sound attractive doesn't it? Yet 3D also alienates those without 3D accelerators and many laptops, and for others, it may not even register as being special. What I would like is the best of both worlds -- a blending of 2D and 3D elements and a focus on gameplay, not eyecandy
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

<< I would say this is a minor reason. It pales into significance alsongside the game's mature elements that involve you "pimping your spouse for chump change" (among other things). THis takes most women and younger family members out of the set of potential purchasers. Reviews clearly advert to this. Add the bugs resulting from a desperate attempt to pre-empt BG, and dated graphics is the last of F2's worries! >>

No, most bugs were fixed with the patch. This esentially eliminated the bug problem. The adult elements opens it up to another crowd. Unfortunately, most of the people who are going to find the adult elements 'cool', are going to be bothered by the dated engine.

<< Yes, Fallout 3D does sound attractive doesn't it? >>

Not especially. I'd rather be pushing pieces around on a board.

<< Yet 3D also alienates those without 3D accelerators and many laptops, and for others, it may not even register as being special. >>

And the originial Fallout alienated people with 386s. 3D cards are a standard on computers. Computers are constantly improving, yesterdays computer won't play todays games (at least not well). So developers might as well take advantage of what the average person's computer will be.

<< What I would like is the best of both worlds -- a blending of 2D and 3D elements and a focus on gameplay, not eyecandy >>

Then you end up alienating people without 3D cards again.

Skie
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

>The adult elements opens it up to another crowd.

A much smaller crowd.

> Unfortunately, most of the people who are going to find the adult elements 'cool', are going to be bothered by the dated engine.

People such as yourself? F1 and BG would make great Christmas or Birthday gifts -- not so F2!

> So developers might as well take advantage of what the average person's computer will be.

"Average" can mean a lot of things. Do you have an "average" computer? Are you an "average person"? Surely not! Tell me, what is an "average" PC? I would guess a Pentium MMX or a PII with low spec 3D card if you're lucky.

Take Baldur's Gate 2. If you look at the minimum spec requirement, you will notice that it is a gross misrepresentation. Come to think of it, so was F2's if you chose the largest installation!

This is all for a very sound reason: the greatest barrier to purchase is not dated graphics -- it is that the end User's computer is unable to play the game!

>Then you end up alienating people without 3D cards again.

Better to take the capabilities of 2D to its very limits and make an amazing game that works well without patches, readmes, bug fixes and workarounds, instead of a poorly implemented 3D engine that diverts programming time away from developing other aspects of the game!
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

"So a total of what 3? 4? 2D RPGs currently being developed. Compared to the 30+ that are 3D?"

That's just two that I know of, and that I can remember the names of.

A month after Dues Ex came out, it was selling for $19.95 at Best Buy.. Chances are, it didn't do well. System Shock 2 didn't do well either.

MMORPGs tend to earn a heck of a lot more than the other titles due to that over-inflated $10/month access fee. When looking at how well a game does, earning-wise, it's kind of unfair to compare the monthly fee game to the rest.

Of course, if you just want "total purchases", I think Diablo 2's 2,000,000 pre-orders, which raked in $180,000,000, can take on all the 3D games alone. ;)
 
RE: Fallout 3D or not 3D?????

A few months ago I saw System Shock 2 in the value bin for 10 bucks.. I almost cried.

Deus Ex and System Shock 2 were both really great games, especially Deus Ex.

Oh, and I had an idea.. How about Fallout with the V:TM engine? It would be soooo beautiful, and I personally like the combat engine alot for V:TM. And if you say that they sacrificed depth, dialogue and other things for graphics in V:TM, you haven't played V:TM. Period. End of Post.

-evian
 
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