FO2 Mechanics Overhaul Mod

Jim have you done any overhauls to resting code? I want to make the game check if there's hostiles or "potential hostiles" around and if so, prevent resting. Otherwise, resting should be allowed on the map always.

I think Fallout 1 does this but I can't be sure since everything is hard-coded in that damn engine :roll:

As far as I know, resting in Fallout 2 currently is just a flag on a per-map basis. But I might be wrong on that...
 
Sduibek said:
Jim have you done any overhauls to resting code? I want to make the game check if there's hostiles or "potential hostiles" around and if so, prevent resting. Otherwise, resting should be allowed on the map always.

I think Fallout 1 does this but I can't be sure since everything is hard-coded in that damn engine :roll:

As far as I know, resting in Fallout 2 currently is just a flag on a per-map basis. But I might be wrong on that...
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Like I said when dealing with the Animal Friend perk, hostility is AFAIK restricted to local variables (and some town wide global variables that trigger them). No clue how you could read these local vars from an sfall script.
 
JimTheDinosaur said:
Anyway, I'm going to remove the carry weight factor (it was just a stupid attempt at getting people to carry less junk and balance the economy anyway), because of this kind of nonsense. I'm also going to make a couple of other changes to make it work a bit better.
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Hehe... carrying junk makes some people happy. Don't make them sad. ;) Btw this wouldn't balance the economy either, as far as i can say now while testplaying. If i have 10 stacks of 10mm with me (and you don't get me anyways bunkering them somewhere else at this time), then prices at vendors for 10mm are horribly cheap. So i can buy all ammo i see at vendors without losing much money.

For the snapshot... You are right, but now i know why i completely disregarded this. Your mod makes me conserving ammo (which is very nice), so my rule is "Shoot only, if you really can hit the target". So trying a snapshot isn't the best way most time, regardless of AP cost. I actually have no clue how to combine these two elements. I'll keep that in mind.

For the HtH bonusrate, i must do more testing. Did you make some changes to the martial arts system?
 
One more question. How's the influence of the critical perks now (more and better criticals)?
 
QuFu said:
If i have 10 stacks of 10mm with me (and you don't get me anyways bunkering them somewhere else at this time), then prices at vendors for 10mm are horribly cheap. So i can buy all ammo i see at vendors without losing much money.
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The approach should be - cheap to sell (half price), expensive to buy (twice or more).
 
Probably, but there's more substantial problems I think. My biggest problem with FO2 (and even more FO1) was the horrible inverted difficulty curve both in combat and the economy. The former I think I'm at least in the process of improving, but the latter I haven't had any progress yet. It would be awesome if the extacy at finally being able to buy a leather jacket could persist throughout the game.

The big problems with my extremely simplistic Supply and Demand system are that (1) it doesn't have anything to do with demand (just because a village doesn't have any plasma rifles doesn't mean they are willing to pay their collective savings for it) and (2) that it doesn't differentiate between selling and buying party (just because I have a ton of water to sell to you in the desert doesn't mean I'll be selling it cheap).

Solving the second issue is of course easy enough, but doing only that makes the script completely pointless. So, the key is the first point: by doing some kind of demand model, I can make sure that later areas are less interested in lower level equipment (Tubby is willing to pay a relatively nice price for that 10mm pistol you want to sell him because he can offload it on Metzger for a profit, but Eldridge needs something more valuable). This could address the economic imbalance: no more exchanging 12 Desert Eagles for a Vindicator Minigun (or, though you'd of course never do this, the other way around: what the hell would Tubby do with a Vindicator minigun?).

QuFu said:
One more question. How's the influence of the critical perks now (more and better criticals)?
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Exact same as vanilla.
 
.Pixote. said:
The approach should be - cheap to sell (half price), expensive to buy (twice or more).
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Numbers like these are good.

Many games have huge ratios and it's not only retarded and unrealistic, but makes the gameplay annoying and unfun.

For example in the Diablo games, many times things sell for like 1/200th of their purchase price. Even the "reasonable" amount in some games is like 1/8 which depending on the item is still far too low.

Half or quarter is fine unless there's a very good reason otherwise. Further price changes should only due to Barter skill, Charisma, Reaction and Supply/Demand, but a half to a quarter of purchase price should be the starting point.
 
By the way I love this type of mod work... I've always felt that ammo should be scarce through the entire game.

One of my visions is to have a truly survivalist playthrough option, where player can of course hoard and loot excessively, but is usually freaking out due to being dangerously low on ammo, stimpaks, etc.

This could have lots of interesting gameplay effects, such as making healing skills much more valuable, and melee a consideration even for sniper type characters.

For supply and demand, remember that even though a farmer has no need for a plasma rifle, he would recognize its great value and how much supplies he could trade it for after getting it from you, so your supply and demand model may not need be that complex at all.
 
Sduibek said:
One of my visions is to have a truly survivalist playthrough option, where player can of course hoard and loot excessively, but is usually freaking out due to being dangerously low on ammo, stimpaks, etc.
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Good idea. That just forces the player to use more than one combat style, which is good.


For supply and demand, remember that even though a farmer has no need for a plasma rifle, he would recognize its great value...
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In Arroyo they'd probably build a temple to a plasma rifle.
 
For the supply&demand i would say KISS. :)

The F2 trading system basically implies that YOU want to trade something, so i think prices for buying stuff shouldn't be affected by any amounts. Aside from this, the barter skill takes care of that. Maybe there could be sometimes a special discount on some items, if the trader has many of them. But thats optional fancy stuff. ;)

edit: Forgot the selling... There are so many reasons, why people/traders want or don't want things, it's impossible to cover it all. The main point for your adjusting should be that the PC isn't able to swim in money during early mid to endgame. I think you need more abstract solutions rather than keeping it as realistic as possible.
 
QuFu said:
For the supply&demand i would say KISS. :)

The F2 trading system basically implies that YOU want to trade something, so i think prices for buying stuff shouldn't be affected by any amounts. Aside from this, the barter skill takes care of that. Maybe there could be sometimes a special discount on some items, if the trader has many of them. But thats optional fancy stuff. ;)
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I'd love simple; simple is great. Simple is the solution the FO2 devs came up with to the economy problem of FO1: sale price down, buy price up. The result is that without investing in barter you have the silly situation where you can trade 3 of your Desert Eagles for 1 of theirs. Of course still nobody invests in barter because this is only problematic in the beginning, by the end you're just as much swimming in cash as in FO1. There's no simple way of fixing this problem, otherwise the FO2 devs would've done it (same with the to hit problem, "solution" I had to come up with is pretty damn convoluted).

edit: Forgot the selling... There are so many reasons, why people/traders want or don't want things, it's impossible to cover it all. The main point for your adjusting should be that the PC isn't able to swim in money during early mid to endgame. I think you need more abstract solutions rather than keeping it as realistic as possible.
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Point isn't realism; I just need to come up with a sensible solution because something like scaling prices based on level is extremely lame. The purpose of introducing demand is that you don't collect 20 desert eagles to exchange for a Vindicator Minigun; instead you leave them to rust. Not saying it'll have that effect, but that's the idea.
 
Ok, i finally get your point. After short thinking, i think you need a tech value for weapons or items and a techWanted value for the traders. But including the personal passions or stuff like that would be a bit overkill.
 
Yeah, was never planning on that anyway, probably just going to end up with 3 tiers of advancement (Den/Modoc, New Reno/Redding, NCR/San Fran, something like that).

Somebody at the Codex noted that you could get around the demand system with a roundabout route: exchanging crappy items for cash in places like Redding, then going to San Fran and exchange cash for good items. I think I might have thought of a way to avoid the roundabout exploit (in part): regional inflation. Like you implied, the problem with changing item costs in any way on a map-by-map basis is cash: money never changes value and just fudges everything up. Can't solve the cash-abundance problem by cutting down on cash: that'd be lame. But what if a region (can't do this on a map by map basis, that'd be too exploitable), like the San Fran region, has so much cash that items cost more cash as a result. I got this idea while shooting off economy balancing ideas that would work, but would be awful: mainly scaling prices based on player level. Inflation, if it more or tracks from poor areas (little inflation), to rich areas (lots of inflation), could have a nice balancing effect without becoming lame. I'd just have to do some cash redistribution from places like Redding to places like NCR and San Fran...
 
Looks like the player level based regional inflation seems to be the only way (in addition to the techleveldemand of weapons) to make it less exploitable. But i think for most players it's ok that money making isn't that easy anymore. If a player really wants to swim in cash, he will find a way anyway.
 
This is the economic system I have settled on. Six economic regions replace the map based system of the old simple system I had:

economic regions map

1 for most economically advanced, 6 for least (though in theory at least, this can change throughout the game somewhat). The more economically advanced a region is, means two things: (1) there's more cash, and more inflation: items cost more cash, (2) they crave more advanced items: cheap items become relatively cheaper, expensive items relatively more expensive.

The system will no longer check for (either map-based or region-based) supply: so Gecko pelts are no longer cheaper in Klamath than in Vault City because there's a lot of them in the maps in the former, and none in the latter, but they're cheaper because they're a relative luxury item (humor me) and Klamath doesn't have the economy to accomodate that, while VC does.

edit: one of the advantages of the regions system is that traders you meet in random encounters also get affected based on the region you meet them in.
 
Ok, that seems to be nice. With this attributes, it should be possible to balance it all out if set correctly. Maybe inflation rise value could be tied to ingame difficulty setting. Thinking about a inflation cap? Balancing should be based on ammo and healing items. You should never come to a point, where buying a 0.223 round become nearly impossible. The same with car fuel (small ec). Just thinking... ;)

I also agree with your map overlay. Is there a reason you don't covered the navarro area?
 
QuFu said:
Ok, that seems to be nice. With this attributes, it should be possible to balance it all out if set correctly. Maybe inflation rise value could be tied to ingame difficulty setting. Thinking about a inflation cap? Balancing should be based on ammo and healing items. You should never come to a point, where buying a 0.223 round become nearly impossible. The same with car fuel (small ec). Just thinking... ;)
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Effect won't be too extreme (and customizable), and remember that regardless of how high inflation is, you'll still be able to purchase items with anything other than cash.

I also agree with your map overlay. Is there a reason you don't covered the navarro area?
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Don't think there's anyone to barter with in Navarro, or any trader encounters in the surrounding region, though I might be mistaken.
 
Continued my testplaying a bit.

I figured out, that custom combat settings for vic prevent him from fleeing. Now he attacks even with unarmed! Maybe this is helpful.

NPCs only attack with snapshots. For Vic and Cassidy, this isn't nice, because they tend to destroy their guns or ammo too often. Beside the fact, that they spend my ammo for "targeting practices" without hitting much.

A last thing, the smaller ammo stacks causing more effective weight. This isn't too bad, only a bit odd.

I tested car fueling, but happily it counts stackwise, so thats fine.
 
I figured out, that custom combat settings for vic prevent him from fleeing. Now he attacks even with unarmed! Maybe this is helpful.
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I've just figured out the bug that was causing enemies to flee (ranged enemies especially), so it should work fine with the update.

NPCs only attack with snapshots. For Vic and Cassidy, this isn't nice, because they tend to destroy their guns or ammo too often. Beside the fact, that they spend my ammo for "targeting practices" without hitting much.
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What makes you think that? Also, snapshots and critical failures have nothing to do with each other, a lower chance to hit no longer results in a higher critical failure chance (it's just about skill and luck now).
 
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